Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Did God know you would or would not create the post you did, when simply told not too?
Robots and Will Worshipers
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Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Free will works equally for those without sin and those with sin. Free will is not a consequence of sin. Sin is the consequence of only one man's disobedience. That man was Adam. Romans 5:12-14.
12 Here is how it works: it was through one individual that sin entered the world, and through sin, death; and in this way death passed through to the whole human race, inasmuch as everyone sinned.
13 Sin was indeed present in the world before Torah was given, but sin is not counted as such when there is no Torah.
14 Nevertheless death ruled from Adam until Moshe, even over those whose sinning was not exactly like Adam’s violation of a direct command. In this, Adam prefigured the one who was to come.
There is not a single verse in the Bible that explains if Eve ate and Adam did not, what would happen. Eve did not cause Sin to enter the world, Adam did. Eve did not disobey God, Adam did.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Well no one sinned before sin, and Adam's disobedience was not sin.
14 Nevertheless death ruled from Adam until Moshe, even over those whose sinning was not exactly like Adam’s violation of a direct command. In this, Adam prefigured the one who was to come.
Paul said those after Adam sinned, but not like Adam. Adam could have waited thousands of years, and no sin would have entered the world.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
I agree that only Adam brought sin in. All we know is Adam agreed with Eve in eating, because he did not condemn her act. When Eve said, see, it is ok, he trusted Eve more than God, for one second. He was the only one with the responsibility of not eating.
No one can understand perfection today!!!
That is why the carnal mind thinks Adam and Eve were not perfect. They want Adam and Eve to be just like they are. Sorry, but before Sin, Adam and Eve were perfect. Just like at the Second Coming, those in Christ will be perfect. We are not there, yet.
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
Adam commiting a disobedient act is an unloving act. God wants us, his creation, to live our lives in a way that shows our love for him, and in a way that gives praise and glory to his name. Living our lives in a way by making a decision that shows that we have faith that God is such a loving person he will rule his creation in a way that we know that only he has the ability and the knowledge to rule his creation in a way that is in the best interest of what he created or what is not in the best interests of what he created is showing such love to God and to ourselves and is praising God name and giving him all the glory that shows he is such a person. God didn't want his creation to make any other decision than that or any other act that showed we didn't have such faith. Do you really believe that when God gave his creation freewill he wanted his creation to make a decision that showed they didn't have enough love for God to have faith in him to be the only person that would rule in such a way that was best for his creation or what was not in the best interest of what he created? We, God's creation, are to make all our decisions based on love for him and each other, any other way, is an abuse of our freewill because God never gave his creation freewill to be unloving to God or each other, that is an abuse of creations freewill.
Ziggy
Well-Known Member
They have this thing called "string theory" . I'm not into science but it goes kind of like this.
You observe this microscopic string and it appears like so, and if you shift your gaze ever so slightly, it changes it's appearance.
Interesting, although I don't fully understand it. Something to do with perception.
I have this same situation when I view Adam and Eve. Depending on my perception or how I gaze on it, it changes.
I can see a mariad of different scenerios of what transpired that day and in that hour.
We have 2 commandments. Love God and Love Neighbor.
God gave Adam a "neighbor" to love.
No greater love, than a man lay down his life for his friend.
Eve made a mistake. Adam took on the mistake as well. He knew it was wrong, but he listened to his wife
whom God gave him to love and take care of.
Making himself as equally to blame, so they would both share the consequences. They would die together.
Maybe it was that mustard seed of faith that Adam had in God that saved them from never having a chance to say I'm sorry.
well, that's one way of looking at the string. I've seen it play out in so many ways.
And we all have different perceptions. The string is still the string, it's how we look at it that we maybe learn from it ?
IDK..
thinking..
Hugs
You observe this microscopic string and it appears like so, and if you shift your gaze ever so slightly, it changes it's appearance.
Interesting, although I don't fully understand it. Something to do with perception.
I have this same situation when I view Adam and Eve. Depending on my perception or how I gaze on it, it changes.
I can see a mariad of different scenerios of what transpired that day and in that hour.
We have 2 commandments. Love God and Love Neighbor.
God gave Adam a "neighbor" to love.
No greater love, than a man lay down his life for his friend.
Eve made a mistake. Adam took on the mistake as well. He knew it was wrong, but he listened to his wife
whom God gave him to love and take care of.
Making himself as equally to blame, so they would both share the consequences. They would die together.
Maybe it was that mustard seed of faith that Adam had in God that saved them from never having a chance to say I'm sorry.
well, that's one way of looking at the string. I've seen it play out in so many ways.
And we all have different perceptions. The string is still the string, it's how we look at it that we maybe learn from it ?
IDK..
thinking..
Hugs
Proverbs 16:33 (NKJV)
33 The lot is cast into the lap, But its every decision is from the LORD.
Proverbs 16:4 (NKJV)
4 The LORD has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.
Romans 9:11-13 (NKJV)
11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger." 13 As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."
33 The lot is cast into the lap, But its every decision is from the LORD.
Proverbs 16:4 (NKJV)
4 The LORD has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.
Romans 9:11-13 (NKJV)
11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger." 13 As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."
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BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
Ziggy said:
Eve made a mistake. Adam took on the mistake as well. He knew it was wrong, but he listened to his wife whom God gave him to love and take care of.
Making himself as equally to blame, so they would both share the consequences. They would die together[/QUOTE\]
Take into consideration what the serpent said to Eve about The True God: the serpent said that God was a liar and he was a ungenerous and bad ruler because he didn't rule over Adam and Eve in a way that was in their best interests and that he was withholding something that was in Adam and Eve best interests to have.
When you take into consideration what the serpent said to Eve about God and that Eve was convinced to believe him but Adam knew all that the serpent said was a lie yet he chose to join her knowing that this would be a willful act of rebellion against the True God I dont believe what Adam did was an act of love toward the True God, which is the love you show first.
Eve made a mistake. Adam took on the mistake as well. He knew it was wrong, but he listened to his wife whom God gave him to love and take care of.
Making himself as equally to blame, so they would both share the consequences. They would die together[/QUOTE\]
Take into consideration what the serpent said to Eve about The True God: the serpent said that God was a liar and he was a ungenerous and bad ruler because he didn't rule over Adam and Eve in a way that was in their best interests and that he was withholding something that was in Adam and Eve best interests to have.
When you take into consideration what the serpent said to Eve about God and that Eve was convinced to believe him but Adam knew all that the serpent said was a lie yet he chose to join her knowing that this would be a willful act of rebellion against the True God I dont believe what Adam did was an act of love toward the True God, which is the love you show first.
Ziggy
Well-Known Member
So then my eye moves ever so slightly and I see this new string...
Adam, He loved God.. but....
There was this little problem, He really wanted to have a bite of that fruit. He thought about it, until it bacame so obsessive, God had to make a surgical procedure. So God put him under anesthesia and removed that thorn in his side. You know, like the one Paul had.
And that thorn God made a woman. Maybe a woman would get Adam's mind off that fruit.
Nope, Adam talked to Eve about that fruit every day and every night. Kind of like Dalilah driving Samson crazy about his hair, only in reverse.
Until Eve decided she would go check it out herself.
She kept reapeating all the words over and over in her head.. Didn't God say not to eat it? Yup or touch it even. Don't even look at it.
But.. what if Adam is right and we won't die. I mean it looks good. It's just a piece of fruit.
If I try it and I die, then I will save my husband. If I try and I don't die, then we can start our own place and rule over it.
Bite... I'm still here.. hmm.. hey ADAM! Come and get it!!!
Oh oh, they got caught.
Adam? Adam? ADAM!!!
Where you hiding boy?
Um... well you see Lord..?
Yes I do, your naked as a jaybird son.
But but, I only ate it because Eve ate it first.. it's all her fault.
oh, really?
Eve.. tell me what happened.
Umm (If I say Adam talked me into it, God will surely kill him and I will be left to die. If I say I did it because I wanted my own place and authority, surely he will kill me... I know! )
You see that snake in the tree Lord.. it's all his fault. He made me do it and convinced me to share it with Adam.
Is that so?
Hey, snake... what do have to say for yourself....
(snake looks around, is he talking to me? Since when do snakes have the gift of speech? WHat can I say? I can't even answer for myself)
Nothing to say huh? I thought so...
You know snakes already go about on their bellies eating dust. I mean for real. That's what they do. They slither everywhere. And they bite you if you get too close. It's called nature and it's how God made it. Snakes don't talk because they have forked tongue.
Now..
The real blame was in Adam from the start.
2 places you can find this.
Lucifer... and in the book of Job.
Job 31:33 If I covered my transgressions as Adam, by hiding mine iniquity in my bosom:
Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Eve gets to have her day in court too: Isaiah chapter 47.. but it's too long to post here.
That string theory thing is real tricky.. depends on one's own perception. and how one "wants" to see it.
There are more. I compare Adam and Eve to Abram and Sarai, who were taken out of Babylon (Ur) and put into Eden. (The promised land) .
Sarah didn't believe God would fulfil his promise so she gave Abram, Hagar to be his wife and have this promise through her.
Hagar's son would be Sarah's son. Or at least that's what she told Abram... she ended up throwing him out into the wilderness to die.
Kinda like what Eve did to that snake. And Abraham agreed...
Anywhoo..
You can always point a finger at another and say it's their fault. It's really hard to be responsible to put the blame where it really starts.
With oneself.
It's all in the eye of the beholder.
Hugs
Ziggy
Well-Known Member
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
Ziggy said:
The real blame was in Adam from the start.
2 places you can find this.
Lucifer... and in the book of Job.[/QUOTE\]
All job 31:33 is saying is that that Job confessed his transgressions of the law and didn't try to cover them up from God nor did he try to excuse himself or extenuate his sin like Adam did after he sinned, by laying the blame on his wife Eve. Adam and Eve were'nt inclined to sin as we are because God didn't create Adam and Eve in such a way that they were inclined to sin. We Adam and Eve offspring are inclined to sin because we are born in sin.
The first application of Isaiah 14:13 I believe is not to Satan the Devil, but is to the ruling dynasty of Babylonian kings beginning with Nebuchadnezzar and ending with Nabonidus and Belshazzar.
The second application of Isaiah 14:13 I believe is to Satan the Devil as the king of modern Babylon the Great, that world empire of false religion. Satan the Devil planned to exalt his throne above even the throne being given to God’s Son, Jesus Christ.
The point is that Isaiah 14:13 had nothing to do with Adam I don't believe.
The real blame was in Adam from the start.
2 places you can find this.
Lucifer... and in the book of Job.[/QUOTE\]
All job 31:33 is saying is that that Job confessed his transgressions of the law and didn't try to cover them up from God nor did he try to excuse himself or extenuate his sin like Adam did after he sinned, by laying the blame on his wife Eve. Adam and Eve were'nt inclined to sin as we are because God didn't create Adam and Eve in such a way that they were inclined to sin. We Adam and Eve offspring are inclined to sin because we are born in sin.
The first application of Isaiah 14:13 I believe is not to Satan the Devil, but is to the ruling dynasty of Babylonian kings beginning with Nebuchadnezzar and ending with Nabonidus and Belshazzar.
The second application of Isaiah 14:13 I believe is to Satan the Devil as the king of modern Babylon the Great, that world empire of false religion. Satan the Devil planned to exalt his throne above even the throne being given to God’s Son, Jesus Christ.
The point is that Isaiah 14:13 had nothing to do with Adam I don't believe.
Ziggy
Well-Known Member
Adam is the embodiment of all mankind.
Just like believers make up the "body" of Christ, Humanity made up the "body" of Adam.
And in there hiding and lurking is the least commandment..
And many that are last shall be first..
What is the least or last commandment?
Exo 20:17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Now people try to tell me that Adam didn't know God's laws. But how did they know to hide?
Why did they feel guilty the minute thay broke that commandment?
If Adam knew about marriage, don't you think God raising his only Son Adam would have instructed him from the day he made him?
Keep your hand out of the cookie jar.
Now you go over to Abraham and scripture plainly states that he had all the statues and the laws.
Where did Abram get these? Handed down by whom?
Gen 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
I looked up Ur in the bible. It was located in the south corner of Babylon.. Babylon been around for a long long time.
Adam sinned, we all fell down, because we were all formed into that one body.
Jesus came to raise us up and form us into a new body. His body.. and we are the church, his wife.. Eve.
And together they create a new beginning. This is now bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh, and they two shall become one.
Barney, there so many ways that God has made it possible for man to hear him.
And though some hear it this way, and others hear it that way,
Ultimately everything returns to God in the end.
Even the ashes.
1Co 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
1Co 14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
1Co 14:28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
1Co 14:29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
1Co 14:30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.
1Co 14:31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
1Co 14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
1Co 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
Everybody is invited to bring a dish to the table. Now some dishes may taste better or look better than others.
I seen some food in my day, nope.. I can't eat that it looks terrible.. ugh.
Now you put a towel over your eyes and eat that same thing, maybe you find it don't taste as bad as it looks.
There is still a lot we haven't uncovered in the treasure chest.
And everybody has a shovel and like to go digging.
Some people find rubies and other's find fool's gold.
I think the important thing ..
is the digging.
The more you dig, the more you learn about God.
Amen?
Much Love
Hugs
@Rudometkin I would find this hard to believe, since God is gracious; and we need His grace indeed...
The Law was the Israelites righteousness, and they extolled its virtues accordingly, which separated them from all other nations. David praised the wisdom of God that he found in the Law, and said that it was the bread of life for him, amongst countless other praises.
Obviously the act of creation of another being, is not done by the creatures volition or acceptance, it is imposed upon them by the creator. Is that what you meant by coercing man? ...either way, whatever our faculties may be, we learn and we grow, and can substantiate to a large degree all our actions that were for better or for worse. Meaning, there is over-whelming evidence that we are self-determining our lives. This cannot be denied or or super-imposed by God's sovereignty, but must be harmonized.
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