Revelation 9:1 - 11 Who are these locusts representing?

[TribulationSigns]

Wrong. See Revelation 9:1 - 11 Who are these locusts representing?

Ezekiel 18 did not refute anything I teach. Not at all. All are sinners and fall short of God. All of us! Because we all have the spirit of disobedience. We all were under spiritual bondage to begin with. That is why we need Christ to free us. That's it! Ezekiel 18 only talked about individual accountability and repentance. Some will turn away from their sinful ways and choose to live righteously if they are Christ's. That does not mean that they ALL never had the spirit of disobedience.

 

[ewq1938]

Ezekiel 18 did not refute anything I teach. Not at all. All are sinners and fall short of God. All of us! Because we all have the spirit of disobedience.

There is no such thing in the bible, and we sin because we choose sin. The passage I posted says a child does not inherit the sin of his parent so your belief in inherited sin is not biblical, nor is this false spirit of disobedience in all humans. Then you have a satan denial which is a third non-biblical doctrine.

 

[TribulationSigns]

There is no such thing in the bible, and we sin because we choose sin. The passage I posted says a child does not inherit the sin of his parent so your belief in inherited sin is not biblical, nor is this false spirit of disobedience in all humans. Then you have a satan denial which is a third non-biblical doctrine.

You think the Spirit of disobedience is no sure thing in the Bible? It is false? Sounds like you have not studied the Bible very well. Are you familiar with this verse?

Eph 2:2
(2) Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Satan is the prince of the power of the air. He is a spirit that works within children of disobedience! We were ALL in an unregenerate state BEFORE our regenesis at the time we became saved! Do you believe this or not? We all got it from Adam and Eve's disobedience! Period!
To deny this simply because you misunderstood some verses thinking that we are not responsible for the sins of our first parent. That is absurd! You totally misunderstood. You have no idea what you believe in!

Unregenerate simply means before we had our genesis in Christ. Before we were "born again/born from above," when we became a new creation/creature in Christ. God forbid that it would have ever have been permanent that we would remain in our old man, in trespass and sin. We thank God that He is merciful so as to take us, while we were dead in trespass and sin, and regenerate us that we could be beloved. We Thank God for a genesis unto new life for the lost, for a new nature, and or a new spirit. And that according to His word rather than my personal traditions or beliefs. And this explained thoroughly where it's not ambiguous. If we will receive it. Now read the context...if you receive it! Christ is talking about YOU and everyone else! Consider the context wisely!

Ephesians 2:1-5

• "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
• Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
• Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
• But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
• Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; )"

So it's not really even debatable, it is abundantly clear that we indeed walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, in an unregenerate state of trespass and sin. God clearly says we were "BY NATURE" the children of wrath. That is the spirit of disobedience within us. Nothing false about it. Do you recognize what children of wrath are? ..by their very nature? Because if you did, you wouldn't be denying that we who were ALL once disobedient were the children of disobedience that were "in need" of the washing of regeneration because of our stain of sin (lawlessness, which is disobedience). Disobedience is by definition transgression of the law (sin)! Selah! To say otherwise is to dabble in absurdity. But Christ in His mercy regenerated us, quickened us, made us alive in the Spirit of Christ that cast out the Spirit of Disobedience (Satan).

And once again, that is my testimony to God's word, not mine.

There you go - the Word of God has proved your understanding of the spirit of disobedience all wrong. Facts!

 

[Jay Ross]

So-called expert won't respond...well becasue what you wrote was nothing but speculation:

"The Locusts that come out of the Bottomless Pit in around 1,020 years from now, will be the judged Kings of the earth who will be judged at Armageddon in around 20 years from now and at the same time the heavenly host will also be judged and they, the judged kings of the earth and the heavenly hosts, will be gathered together and imprisoned for many days in a pit to await the time of their punishment."​

​

The Locusts will come out about 1,020 years from now? Based on what Scripture support do you claim that battle of Armageddon will be about 20 years from today? Do you even know the nature and purpose of the battle of Armageddon anyway? And imprisoned for many days in pit and why? You have no clues about what you are talking about. For example, what is the purpose of the bottomless pit? Exactly what are the smoke locusts The locusts come out of the bottomless pit. who are they exactly? Why smoke locusts? How does the smoke affect the sun and the air as a reason? Etc. etc. Can you biblically explain these? Doubtfully, especially since you got the timing part all wrong.

I was quoting Isiaih 24:21-22 and linked it to the Armageddon judgement.

When God provides a warning of an event, it is usually around 40 years before the actual judgement takes place.

If I am wrong then you only have 20 years to wait for the rebuttal of what I have written.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Can you prove this with Scripture?

Yes, quite easily.

Matthew 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. 2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred. 3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. 4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. 5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, 6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. 7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. 8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; 9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. 10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. 11 Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.

This clearly portrays the devil, Satan, as a being that tempted Jesus in the wilderness for 40 days and nights. Jesus talked to him and corrected his misuse of Old Testament scriptures. Who else do you think Jesus was talking to here if the devil, Satan, is not a created being?

Before the episode in the garden, there was no spirit of disobedience. That spirit was conceived within Adam and Eve, and they disobeyed. There was no sin in the flesh of Adam and Eve until in their spirit they disobeyed.

Eze 28:15

• Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

God was talking about Adam, not a fallen angel in heaven. That's man who was created perfect and in whom there was no spirit to disobey until that day it was conceived by lust and brought forth death. The Serpent was merely symbolic of that spirit, as it is throughout scripture. So I am curious if you understand exactly who Lucifer was in Scripture.

The devil, Satan is talked about in terms of being a personal created being a number of times in scripture. I gave one example above and there are many more. Why deny something so obvious? Do you think Jesus was talking to man's spirit of disobedience in the desert? When verses like Revelation 12:9 and Matthew 25:41 refer to the devil and his angels, what is your understanding of that? There's no actual devil who is in charge of angels?

Of course. It is our own spirit of disobedience we all received from Adam and Eve before we were born again. The devil is everyone's adversary. This spirit was NOT a created being that turned evil in heaven as tradition teaches, but is the rebellious spirit within mankind that hold him in bondage to sin! This spirit has always been in the world (since the fall), was bound by Christ at the Cross for the sake of the Elects of the Nations, and will be unrestrained in the world as judgment in the last days. No scripture says the Devil is an intelligent created being. NO WHERE! Scripture is clear that the Devil is an evil spirit that started with Eve and Adam when the iniquity was found in them! Period!

This is just complete nonsense. Was Jesus being tempted by His own spirit of disobedience in the desert for 40 days and nights? If what you were saying was true, that is what you would have to conclude.

Humm.. I have not yet fully explained where Satan comes from with Scripture here. If you choose to cling to the pride and beliefs you learned in Sunday School as a kid - - such as the idea of a good heavenly angel transformed into a talking snake to converse with Eve—rather than engaging in serious Bible study, that is entirely your prerogative!

LOL. You make me laugh with this nonsense. This is much simpler than you're making it out to be. You only have yourself to blame for coming up with an explanation for Satan that makes no sense whatsoever.

 

[TribulationSigns]

LOL. You make me laugh with this nonsense.

"I completely disagree. He most certainly is a created being and is our number one spiritual enemy. I'm not going to bother reading any further because I can't take your view on this seriously." - Spiritual Israelite

Yet, you missed me so much that you decided to re-read my post and respond again? LOL What a hoot.

Matthew 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. 2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred. 3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. 4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. 5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, 6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. 7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. 8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; 9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. 10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. 11 Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.

This clearly portrays the devil, Satan, as a being that tempted Jesus in the wilderness for 40 days and nights. Jesus talked to him and corrected his misuse of Old Testament scriptures. Who else do you think Jesus was talking to here if the devil, Satan, is not a created being?

First, I am still waiting for your biblical proof where it says that God created Satan. And no, Satan is not a created being.
The devil is everyone's adversary, and doesn't belong to anyone. He is the rebellious spirit WITHIN mankind that holds him in bondage to sin. He is the antirhcirst spirit that opposes the Kingdom of God. This spirit has always been in the world (since the fall), was bound at the Cross for the sake of the Elect of the nations, and will be unrestrained in the world as judgment in the last days prior to Second Coming. Let look at Jude 1:9 where many people thought Christ was having a conversation with a created being called "Satan":

Jude 1:9

• yet Michael, the chief messenger, when, with the devil contending, he was disputing about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring up an evil-speaking judgment, but said, 'The Lord rebuke thee!'

When Christ contends and disputes with the Devil, He contends and disputes with the SPIRIT of false priests, teachers, prophets, and Messengers. This is that evil spirit that works in the children of disobedience and is offended in Christ Jesus. When we read that Christ disputed with the Devil, He is contending with mankind that is in opposition to His Kingdom. They are those who have this antichrist spirit to resist, obstruct and speak against Christ. The question is, what spirit opposed Christ and denied his office as Cheif Messenger of the Covenant? Indeed the larger question is, who is the spirit of antichrist?

1st John 4:3

• "And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world."

According to God's definition of the term, all and EVERY MAN those who deny Christ as Savior is Antichrist. So what spirit contended with Christ about the body of Moses? Was it a red supernatural man with horns or was it man with a lawless spirit? The very context of Jude tells us that the word of God is speaking about men who would always gainsay and resist God.

Jude 1:8-10

• "Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.
• Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
• But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves."

This refers to Old Covenant Israel whom Christ called the children of the Devil, and how He opened not His mouth against them (although He was the chief messenger) when He was reviled, accused, spoken evil against, persecuted and brought before magistrates. Because He came as the suffering servant to confirm the Covenant before many. This language of Christ not rebuking Satan is taken from

Zechariah 3:1-3

• "And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.
• And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?
• Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel."

This prophesies of the coming of Christ and how He would cleanse the Lord's servants by taking away their filthy garments and bringing them righteousness. The spirit Satan opposed Christ through the leaders of Old Covenant Israel who did everything in their power to resist Him, His kingdom and reign. This is that same spirit of Satan that Christ contended with regarding the body of Moses. It was all those with the spirit of disobedience who rejected Him, His kingdom and Covenant revelation and indeed sought to kill Him because of His teachings concerning this Kingdom. The pertinent questions here are, who is Michael the archangel (Christ, the chief Messenger), when did He contend with the Devil (at the time of His first advent), what is the significance of the body of Moses (the Old Testament Covenant), what is Satan's main modus operandi in opposing Christ (the nature of the Kingdom), what Scriptures support this conclusion (Zechariah, Revelation 12, Jude and Matthew among others) and what was Christ disputing with the evil spirit and adversary about? It was the same thing the Apostle Paul was disputing with the Judaizers about--the very nature and makeup of the law of Moses, Covenant, Kingdom, Reign and Messiah.

I can go on and on but for now, I am saying this... no, Satan did not appear before Christ as a "created being" having a conversation over the body of Moses. Likewise Satan in the wilderness with Christ for 40 days.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

"I completely disagree. He most certainly is a created being and is our number one spiritual enemy. I'm not going to bother reading any further because I can't take your view on this seriously." - Spiritual Israelite

Yet, you missed me so much that you decided to re-read my post and respond again? LOL What a hoot.

Why are you not addressing what I said about Satan tempting Jesus in the desert for 40 days. You are saying that Satan represents the spirit of disobedience in mankind. So, do you think Jesus had a spirit of disobedience tempting him? Does it give the impression that Satan is an actual living being for no good reason?

When it talks about the devil, Satan, and his angels in verses like Revelation 12:9 and Matthew 25:41, how do you interpret that? Do you not think "his angels" are actual angels, either?

First, I am still waiting for your biblical proof where it says that God created Satan. And no, Satan is not a created being.
The devil is everyone's adversary, and doesn't belong to anyone. He is the rebellious spirit WITHIN mankind that holds him in bondage to sin.

So, you are saying that even Jesus had a rebellious spirit within Him that was tempting Him in the desert for 40 days and nights?

He is the antirhcirst spirit that opposes the Kingdom of God. This spirit has always been in the world (since the fall), was bound at the Cross for the sake of the Elect of the nations, and will be unrestrained in the world as judgment in the last days prior to Second Coming. Let look at Jude 1:9 where many people thought Christ was having a conversation with a created being called "Satan":

Jude 1:9

• yet Michael, the chief messenger, when, with the devil contending, he was disputing about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring up an evil-speaking judgment, but said, 'The Lord rebuke thee!'

When Christ contends and disputes with the Devil, He contends and disputes with the SPIRIT of false priests, teachers, prophets, and Messengers.

Where does it indicate that He was contending with "the SPIRIT of false priests, teachers, prophets, and Messengers" in the desert for 40 days and nights? There were no false priests, teachers, prophets and messengers there with him. It was just Satan.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Why are you not addressing what I said about Satan tempting Jesus in the desert for 40 days.

Didn't you read carefully what I said about Jesus and Satan over the body of Moses? Did Satan appeared to him as created being to have a conversation with him? Humm?

You are saying that Satan represents the spirit of disobedience in mankind.

Yes.

So, do you think Jesus had a spirit of disobedience tempting him?

What made you think I said this? Where in Scripture does that tell you this? Christ, a God-man, had a spirit of disobedience? LOL.

Does it give the impression that Satan is an actual living being for no good reason?

You still haven't learned anything, haven't you? Satan is not a "living being" as a separate entity but rather a spirit of man.

Let's start over with the need to answer the question: Where does Scripture say that Satan was a created being? If he was a created being, he was created wicked because God said He was a liar from the beginning! Hello?! By contrast, man was created good and fell into sin. The very reason many people asked the question, "where did Satan came from" is precisely because the Bible DOES NOT say that Satan is a created being or was once a dragon in literal/physical heaven. Because that is a CONTRADICTION! There is nothing wicked in God's holy physical/spiritual heaven. Never has been, never will be!

Interpretations belong to God and therefore the serpent was in the Garden of Eden and also was an adversary in the kingdom of heaven symbolism recorded in Revelation chapter 12. If that is true, then he cannot be a physical cursed snake being on the earth in the Garden, and THEN back in heaven in Revelation chapter 12, can he? We can all just deal with the Scriptures themselves to see if they are true (Acts 17:11), or we can revile those who do, calling them Heretics.

God didn't create evil (wickedness) to tempt man because God abhors, detests and despises wickedness, and He denies tempting mankind to sin with wickedness. Does it make sense to you that God disdains wickedness and so He created wickedness in man so that man could be the object of His hatred? That's not the God I serve, it may be the god of the intellectual elite who think they can place God in a box where Sovereignty must mean that He created wickedness, but that's NOT the God of truth. You may ask "then who created evil (or Satan)" as if we have no ability to be lawless. Because that is exactly what Evil/Wickedness/Sin is. Disobedience (lawlessness). Evil in the sense of iniquity is not some abstract word that cannot be defined, it's defying God's laws.

John 3:4

• "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."

That's what sin, wickedness and iniquity is! The transgression of God's law. For example, in the beginning, God said not to eat of a certain tree, right? That was God's law laid down to Adam and Eve! In their spirit they took it upon themselves to "disobey" God's law, and that was what we call "Original Sin." And as a result, death came upon mankind. Did God create this evil in Adam? Not at all, Adam disobeyed of his own will, determination and volition. This is where Satan came in! It is Adam's own spirit of disobedience - something that God did NOT create. Selah! We don't have to invent a God who created evil, the one who created it was man, when he lusted after the fruit of the tree and disobeyed God's law.

Genesis 2:17

• "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

And mankind has been disobeying God's laws ever since! Not because a fallen uper being or a created super angel possessed him, but because Adam's own disobedient spirit moved him to lie to himself and disobey. The carnality inherited from Adam is passed down to all of mankind, leaving him in bondage to the flesh. For because of Adam, the flesh is corrupt and man wherein he is in bondage to it. But in the Spirit of Christ are we bought and that flesh/carnality is brought under control, unto the day of redemption.

1t Corinthians 15:50

• "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."

The flesh cannot enter God's holy heaven specifically because it is corrupt, carnal and subject to death because of Adam's sin.

Therefore it is man who created his own evil spirit. The children of Israel had such as spirit and as a result they all perished in the wilderness becasue of unbelief. Not because God is merciless, but as our example, illustrating every man is tempted away of his own lust and entices, and that lust conceives and brings forth SIN. The true enemy is the adversary in us, a spirit of disobedience. It is mankind brought THIS SPIRIT into existence when his will was adversarial to God's, therefore God did not create Satan. :-)

When it talks about the devil, Satan, and his angels in verses like Revelation 12:9 and Matthew 25:41, how do you interpret that? Do you not think "his angels" are actual angels, either?

I have explained angels MANY times here and in other forum that I am sure you have read before. Look it up.

So, you are saying that even Jesus had a rebellious spirit within Him that was tempting Him in the desert for 40 days and nights?

Where did I say this or even thought of that? Christ never sinned, right? Christ never lusted? Right? Christ never think of evil thoughts? So what made you think Christ had a rebellious spirit within Him to begin with?

Where does it indicate that He was contending with "the SPIRIT of false priests, teachers, prophets, and Messengers" in the desert for 40 days and nights? There were no false priests, teachers, prophets and messengers there with him. It was just Satan.

Again. Satan is a spirit. The adversary spirit, which is US! The spirit tempted, revived, insulted, tested, and tempted Christ. Not as created being that were standing next to Jesus.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Didn't you read carefully what I said about Jesus and Satan over the body of Moses? Did Satan appeared to him as created being to have a conversation with him? Humm?

You are obviously avoiding my question, which is very telling. It's what people do when they believe what they want to believe, which is more typical of premils than of amils like yourself. Explain to me how a non-created being could tempt Jesus in the desert for 40 days and nights.

What made you think I said this? Where in Scripture does that tell you this? Christ, a God-man, had a spirit of disobedience? LOL.

LOL yourself. You are the one saying Satan is not a created being but is instead the spirit of disobedience in mankind. So, with that being the case, what else in your view, besides the spirit of disobedience in mankind, could have been tempting Jesus in the desert for 40 days and nights? Hummmmm?

You still haven't learned anything, haven't you? Satan is not a "living being" as a separate entity but rather a spirit of man.

When it comes to this particular topic, I clearly have nothing to learn from you except that you don't know what you're talking about.

Let's start over with the need to answer the question: Where does Scripture say that Satan was a created being? If he was a created being, he was created wicked because God said He was a liar from the beginning! Hello?!

Hello? You sure make a lot of assumptions! He couldn't have chosen to be a liar from the beginning? Hello?!

By contrast, man was created good and fell into sin.

How do you know that isn't true of Satan as well. It could be said that man sinned from the beginning even if he didn't sin immediately after being created. It was shortly enough after that you could generally say that man has sinned from the beginning.

The very reason many people asked the question, "where did Satan came from" is precisely because the Bible DOES NOT say that Satan is a created being or was once a dragon in literal/physical heaven. Because that is a CONTRADICTION! There is nothing wicked in God's holy physical/spiritual heaven. Never has been, never will be!

How can a non-created being tempt Jesus in the desert? Are you too afraid to address that? How can a non-created being be in charge of "his angels" (Rev 12:9, Matt 25:41)? You have no answers for questions like these.

Interpretations belong to God and therefore the serpent was in the Garden of Eden and also was an adversary in the kingdom of heaven symbolism recorded in Revelation chapter 12. If that is true, then he cannot be a physical cursed snake being on the earth in the Garden, and THEN back in heaven in Revelation chapter 12, can he? We can all just deal with the Scriptures themselves to see if they are true (Acts 17:11), or we can revile those who do, calling them Heretics.

God didn't create evil (wickedness) to tempt man because God abhors, detests and despises wickedness, and He denies tempting mankind to sin with wickedness. Does it make sense to you that God disdains wickedness and so He created wickedness in man so that man could be the object of His hatred? That's not the God I serve, it may be the god of the intellectual elite who think they can place God in a box where Sovereignty must mean that He created wickedness, but that's NOT the God of truth.

I never said such things. Stop wasting your time with strawman arguments. It's time that you can never get back.

You may ask "then who created evil (or Satan)" as if we have no ability to be lawless. Because that is exactly what Evil/Wickedness/Sin is. Disobedience (lawlessness). Evil in the sense of iniquity is not some abstract word that cannot be defined, it's defying God's laws.

No kidding. Can you move on from these elementary things and stop avoiding the weaknesses in your view of Satan?

I have explained angels MANY times here and in other forum that I am sure you have read before. Look it up.

I have not. And won't waste my time looking it up. Explain them one more time to me then. If you've done it many times, then what's one more time? Just copy and paste what you've said before instead of trying to make me look it up.

Where did I say this or even thought of that? Christ never sinned, right? Christ never lusted? Right? Christ never think of evil thoughts? So what made you think Christ had a rebellious spirit within Him to begin with?

I don't think that. Stop being ridiculous. I'm talking from your perspective of saying that Satan is the spirit of disobedience in mankind. So, that would mean you believe the spirit of wickedness of mankind was tempting Jesus in the desert. That would come across as if Jesus Himself had the spirit of disobedience in Him that He had to contend with for 40 days and nights in the desert. If that isn't your understanding of that event, then explain your understanding of it to me instead of continually avoiding it.

Again. Satan is a spirit. The adversary spirit, which is US! The spirit tempted, revived, insulted, tested, and tempted Christ. Not as created being that were standing next to Jesus.

What?!!! Where does it indicate that the adversary spirit in people tempted Jesus in the desert? That's complete nonsense. Why did Jesus talk to Satan as if he was a created being if he wasn't? Is it your belief that He was not actually talking to anyone when He was in the desert?

 

[Verily]

You are obviously avoiding my question, which is very telling. It's what people do when they believe what they want to believe, which is more typical of premils than of amils like yourself. Explain to me how a non-created being could tempt Jesus in the desert for 40 days and nights.


LOL yourself. You are the one saying Satan is not a created being but is instead the spirit of disobedience in mankind. So, with that being the case, what else in your view, besides the spirit of disobedience in mankind, could have been tempting Jesus in the desert for 40 days and nights? Hummmmm?


^^This^^

Spiritual Israelite, this was my question back in post# 120 that went unanswered, I would be curious as well as to how this one is answered.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I am now attempting to understand the 5th trumpet in Revelation 9: 1- 12 - the first Woe.

Now this is complicated! Any thoughts on these fellows and don't forget to comment on what the 5 months means - it is repeated twice within these few verses. Thanks

Revelation 9:1-12

King James Version

​

9 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.
8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.
9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.
10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.
11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.
12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.

They are exactly what Scripture says they are! Demons led by the Demon who is named Apollyon/Abaddon. Irt is that simple.

JOhn is giving his best description based on his 1st cewntury knowledge.

But they are not helicopters ala Hal Lindsay or people or even bugs, but demons with a special task to do for five months. Stop trying to find secret or hidden or allegorical meanings in all this stuff.

Their sting will make people want to die, but they won't or can't, and they only sting those without the seal of God on their foreheads.

As Revelation does not say that those who believe in teh tribulation have the seal of God, but only the 144,000 Jews are mentioned, it is possible that even those who believe after the ra[pture will suffer this torment!

We will have to wait and watch from heaven to see how all this exactly plays out.''People can make their allegorical guesses and they are anywhere from 0-100% wrong, with no empirical way to test their guesstimates.

 

[CTK]

Revelation 9:1-12​

​

King James Version​

​

​

9 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.
8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.
9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.
10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.
11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.
12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.

They are exactly what Scripture says they are! Demons led by the Demon who is named Apollyon/Abaddon. Irt is that simple.

JOhn is giving his best description based on his 1st cewntury knowledge.

But they are not helicopters ala Hal Lindsay or people or even bugs, but demons with a special task to do for five months. Stop trying to find secret or hidden or allegorical meanings in all this stuff.

Their sting will make people want to die, but they won't or can't, and they only sting those without the seal of God on their foreheads.

As Revelation does not say that those who believe in teh tribulation have the seal of God, but only the 144,000 Jews are mentioned, it is possible that even those who believe after the ra[pture will suffer this torment!

We will have to wait and watch from heaven to see how all this exactly plays out.''People can make their allegorical guesses and they are anywhere from 0-100% wrong, with no empirical way to test their guesstimates.

I have to disagree with you... Revelation is entirely written in a symbolic manner.... no literal 200 million man army or a literal river that is dried up, or literal locusts, etc., they represent symbols found in the old testament to reveal what they mean at the end times.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I have to disagree with you... Revelation is entirely written in a symbolic manner.... no literal 200 million man army or a literal river that is dried up, or literal locusts, etc., they represent symbols found in the old testament to reveal what they mean at the end times.

And you know this how?

John never said they were locusts but looked like them. That tells us this is not to be taken literally.

China with its reserves and complex system can field a 200,000,000 man army by itself.

You do not believe a river can dry up? Just look at the Mississippi in times of drought or the Colorado River.

Yes there is a lot of symbolism in revelation. Yes there is a lot of literal things in revelation also. If we let teh Bible define what is literal and what is symbolic by the language God inspired to be written, we stay in safe territory. god is smart! He also meant His word to be understood by the simple. Not Kabbalists and Christian Mystics

And when your "interpretation" is disagreed by dozens of other "interpretations" and all say they got it from god- where do you stand?

 

[Verily]

So we can all pretty much agree that these things are not something that get loosed from some gain of function lab?

 

[CTK]

And you know this how?

John never said they were locusts but looked like them. That tells us this is not to be taken literally.

China with its reserves and complex system can field a 200,000,000 man army by itself.

You do not believe a river can dry up? Just look at the Mississippi in times of drought or the Colorado River.

Yes there is a lot of symbolism in revelation. Yes there is a lot of literal things in revelation also. If we let teh Bible define what is literal and what is symbolic by the language God inspired to be written, we stay in safe territory. god is smart! He also meant His word to be understood by the simple. Not Kabbalists and Christian Mystics

And when your "interpretation" is disagreed by dozens of other "interpretations" and all say they got it from god- where do you stand?

You are entitled to interpret Revelation as you like.

 

[Earburner]

Luke 10:19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

That could fit too somewheres

The Lord had given me the same understanding in 2019 when COVID was declared a pandemic.
AMEN, Praise the Lord for his witness to us both, and all who testify to the same!!

 

[Earburner]

Rev 9:10. The scorpion sting (a needle like injection) is a a precursor to the mark since it happens in the 5th trump while the mark is in the 6th trump. The sting simply weakens them so they can be spiritually devoured which is how the scorpion prepares to devour it's prey:

https://www.terminix.com/pest-control/scorpions/behavior/what-do-scorpions-eat/

Venom is delivered to their prey through the stinger. The venom causes paralysis or death, but it also liquefies the insides of the prey. Once the victim is immobilized, scorpions use their sharp, claw-like mouthparts to remove portions of food. Scorpions can only digest liquids, so they also use these mouthparts to discard any solid matter that’s left after feeding.

Rev 9:10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.

G2759
????????
kentron
ken'-tron
From ??????? kenteo? (to prick); a point (“centre”), that is, a sting (figuratively poison) or goad (figuratively divine impulse): - prick, sting.
Total KJV occurrences: 5

The Lord had given me the same understanding in 2019 when COVID was declared a pandemic.
AMEN, Praise the Lord for his witness to us both, and all who testify to the same!!

 

[Earburner]

For 3 Christians to recieve the same understanding, for what Locusts symbolize in Rev. 9, is a witness unto us that our discernment is of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Douggg]

Where does Scripture say that Satan was a created being? If he was a created being, he was created wicked because God said He was a liar from the beginning! Hello

In Ezekiel 28:13. Satan was created perfect, but decided he wanted to be worshiped like God. In Ezekiel 28:16-19 is Satan's future, to be fulfilled in Revelation 12:7-12.

Ezekiel
12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

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Revelation 12:
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

 

[CTK]

And you know this how?

John never said they were locusts but looked like them. That tells us this is not to be taken literally.

China with its reserves and complex system can field a 200,000,000 man army by itself.

You do not believe a river can dry up? Just look at the Mississippi in times of drought or the Colorado River.

Yes there is a lot of symbolism in revelation. Yes there is a lot of literal things in revelation also. If we let teh Bible define what is literal and what is symbolic by the language God inspired to be written, we stay in safe territory. god is smart! He also meant His word to be understood by the simple. Not Kabbalists and Christian Mystics

And when your "interpretation" is disagreed by dozens of other "interpretations" and all say they got it from god- where do you stand?

Here are my thoughts / interpretations....

Revelation 9:7-10 provides a richly symbolic description of the locusts, offering a deeper understanding of their nature, purpose, and connection to Satan’s intensified efforts during the 5th trumpet. These locusts, far from being literal insects, represent spiritual and systemic forces, newly empowered by Satan’s release from the abyss. Their mission aligns with the little horn (papacy) as they strive to deceive, torment, and suppress truth during the final period of harvest, marked by the preaching of the 144,000.

The locusts are described as resembling horses prepared for battle, signaling their readiness and aggression in spiritual warfare. They wear something like golden crowns, symbolizing a claim to authority and victory. However, these crowns are counterfeit, representing the false authority of the papacy, now bolstered by Satan’s influence. Their human-like faces reflect intelligence and cunning, illustrating their manipulative and deceptive strategies to control and mislead.

Further details enhance this imagery. The locusts have hair like women, symbolizing their allure and seductive power, and teeth like lions, representing their destructive potential. This duality captures the seductive yet devastating nature of Satan’s influence, working through systems like the little horn to maintain control over humanity. They wear breastplates of iron, signifying an impenetrable resolve and connection to the iron strength of the fourth kingdom described in Daniel’s prophecies. The sound of their wings is compared to the noise of chariots rushing into battle, emphasizing their overwhelming and far-reaching impact as they unleash torment on unsealed humanity.

Their tails, like scorpions with stings, highlight the torment they inflict—not physical but spiritual and psychological. This torment affects those who continue in rebellion, symbolizing the despair, fear, and inner turmoil that arise from separation from God’s truth. The imagery reflects the oppressive systems and false teachings perpetuated by the little horn, now infused with Satan’s full power. This activity aligns with the symbolic harvest period, the time between the spring and fall feasts. The five-month timeline mirrors the lifespan of locusts and underscores Satan’s desperate attempt to disrupt the final harvest. Despite their power, the locusts’ actions are limited by God, highlighting His sovereignty and the protection He extends to the 144,000 and others who show signs of repentance.

In this vivid depiction, the locusts reveal the unholy alliance between demonic forces and the earthly systems under Satan’s influence. Their relentless attack during this period reflects Satan’s awareness that his time is short, as he strives to resist God’s ultimate plan. Yet their limitations affirm God’s authority and the certainty of His victory, serving as both a warning to the unrepentant and a reassurance of protection for His faithful.