Revelation 11:1-3 - Can someone explain to me what these 3 verses are telling us?

[Galgal]

The two Witnesses are 2 living men. They will be just two of the 144,000 people who will proclaim the coming Kingdom to the world, As Isaiah 66:19 plainly says and as Revelation 14:6-7 tells us: allegorically. They will all have the power to trample scorpions, same as the 72 people in Luke 10:1-10 did.

Clearly; all of them will operate during the final 3 1/2 years before Jesus Returns, as that is the time the ungodly peoples, under the leadership of the 'beast', will have world control. Daniel 7:23-25, Rev 13
They will be killed just 3 1/2 days before the glorious Return of Jesus, He will call them up to meet Him in the clouds, as well as all the other Christian martyrs murdered by the 'beast'. Revelation 20:4 Probably most of the 144k, plus many of those Christians who had to remain in Jerusalem. Revelation 12:17

If everything were to go according to your scenario, and two bearded men dressed in sackcloth really appeared, with flames coming out of their mouths like fakirs, and who performed miracles, then even the dumbest people would believe that these two should be listened to. Nothing like that will happen. There have already been two witnesses, and the beast has already been, and there will be a beast again when the US and the whole world recover from the Great Crisis, on the threshold of which we are standing.

 

[ScottA]

Okay, would you mind interpreting these verses:

1Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. [a]And the angel stood, saying, “Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there. 2But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months. 3And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”

A measuring rod is the length and stature of a man--meaning John was told to measure or count the number of people of the house of Israel up until the time of the cross, who make up that inner portion of the spiritual Temple in heaven.

The outer court of the gentiles--meaning the saved of the gentiles, were not to be counted at that time. But would "tread" (meaning stand upon) the foundation laid by Israel, during the times to come after the cross.

Those are the two witnesses. As it is written, "there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one" (1 John 5:8). "The water" refers to those "born of water" as Christ explained, meaning of flesh, after the likeness of Adam. "Blood" refers to those born of the saving blood of Christ, meaning "born again of the spirit of God." "The Spirit" is God.

All of which is rightly referred to as a riddle by the confusion placed upon all language at the Tower of Babel.

4These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the Revelation 11 NKJVGod of the earth. 5And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner. 6These have power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy; and they have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire.

Again, these are the two witnesses of God.

As for "fire" proceeding from their mouth--this is the Holy Spirit speaking the truth from God "precept upon precept, line upon line, here a little there a little" (Isaiah 28:10) through God's people down through the ages, resulting in the scriptures as well as every good word from God unwritten, but according to His purpose. Which yes, is the death of the enemies of God.

As for "the power to shut heaven"--this is the power to believe and push forward the plan of God, or to stifle the plan of God by unbelieve...just as it is written of the good and evil kings of Israel--they were a foreshadowing of what is now true in the spirit. In other words, specifically after the cross, and even before, "we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places" (Ephesians 6:12).

 

[CTK]

A measuring rod is the length and stature of a man--meaning John was told to measure or count the number of people of the house of Israel up until the time of the cross, who make up that inner portion of the spiritual Temple in heaven.

The outer court of the gentiles--meaning the saved of the gentiles, were not to be counted at that time. But would "tread" (meaning stand upon) the foundation laid by Israel, during the times to come after the cross.

Those are the two witnesses. As it is written, "there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one" (1 John 5:8). "The water" refers to those "born of water" as Christ explained, meaning of flesh, after the likeness of Adam. "Blood" refers to those born of the saving blood of Christ, meaning "born again of the spirit of God." "The Spirit" is God.

All of which is rightly referred to as a riddle by the confusion placed upon all language at the Tower of Babel.


Again, these are the two witnesses of God.

As for "fire" proceeding from their mouth--this is the Holy Spirit speaking the truth from God "precept upon precept, line upon line, here a little there a little" (Isaiah 28:10) through God's people down through the ages, resulting in the scriptures as well as every good word from God unwritten, but according to His purpose. Which yes, is the death of the enemies of God.

As for "the power to shut heaven"--this is the power to believe and push forward the plan of God, or to stifle the plan of God by unbelieve...just as it is written of the good and evil kings of Israel--they were a foreshadowing of what is now true in the spirit. In other words, specifically after the cross, and even before, "we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places" (Ephesians 6:12).

Thanks for your thoughts... it certainly isn't worse than what I am coming up with.... although at this time, I am leaning to the Word of God and the Holy Spirit as thes two witnesses may cover or meet all 19 of the requirements - symbolically. But 11 is challenging.

 

[Keraz]

If everything were to go according to your scenario

Everything will go according to God's scenario.
There are several verses about fire coming out of the mouth. Psalms 18:8, Job 41:19, 2 Samuel 22:9. It is possible and can happen, whether physically or Spiritually.

 

[ScottA]

Thanks for your thoughts... it certainly isn't worse than what I am coming up with.... although at this time, I am leaning to the Word of God and the Holy Spirit as thes two witnesses may cover or meet all 19 of the requirements - symbolically. But 11 is challenging.

What is holding you up?

Incidentally, I was not giving my opinion, but speaking by the same Spirit which God has poured out since the beginning.

 

[IronMaiden]

What is happening here in these 3 verses? A reed to measure..... measure the Temple, the Altar and those who worship there....but leave out the court which is outside the Temple because it has been given to the Gentiles.....And they (Gentiles) will tread the holy city for 42 months.... And God will give power to His two witnesses for 1260 days....clothed in sackcloth...


That is some confusiong stuff! Can anyone shed some light on these verses / meanings? I don't believe this is going to be easy! That is, unless some of you have already interpreted them.... Look forward to your responses... I expect to be studying these 3 verses for qutie some time.

Rev. 11:1
And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

The reed and rod function like a short heavy club and here, they’re used to destroy. Three things are to be measured for destruction: the altar, the people who worship there, and the temple itself.

The timeframe is the sixth Trump when Satan takes control of the temple and declares himself to be God. We were forewarned by the apostle Paul that this would happen before Jesus returns at the seventh Trump:
2 Thessalonians 2:2-4 (NKJV) 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for [that Day will not come] unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

So on the sixth Trump, the Antichrist (Satan) is seen seated in the temple of God, deceiving everyone into thinking he is Jesus. As a result, people give their reverence and daily sacrifice to him rather than to the true Jesus. This is why Jesus would say that the temple will be destroyed at His coming, and that not one stone will be left standing upon another:
Matthew 24:1-2 (NKJV) 1 Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not [one] stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

According to Revelation 11:2, only the temple area will be destroyed, so there's no need to take measurements outside of it. Only a tenth of the city—clearly the temple area—is destroyed in verse 13, and only 7,000 "men" (fallen angels) are killed. This happens when Jesus Christ, as described in Zech. 14, sets foot on the Mount of Olives and totally pulverizes the altar, the temple, and the 7,000 fallen angels that worship there.
Revelation 11:13 (NKJV) In the same hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. In the earthquake seven thousand people were killed, and the rest were afraid and gave glory to the God of heaven.

 

[ewq1938]

Only a tenth of the city—clearly the temple area—is destroyed in verse 13,

Clearly? It doesn't say the temple area at all plus a tenth of the city is far larger than the temple would be anyways.

and only 7,000 "men" (fallen angels) are killed.

It would say angels if it were angels. Angels are far stronger and have special abilities... It's clear the 7000 are humans. The angels fate is the LOF.

This happens when Jesus Christ, as described in Zech. 14, sets foot on the Mount of Olives and totally pulverizes the altar, the temple, and the 7,000 fallen angels that worship there.

None of that even comes from scripture. I've heard this before. It comes from the Shepherd's chapel. I've never heard any other teacher/Pastor teach the 7000 men are actually fallen angels.

 

[Reddsta]

Greetings @CTK...and forum...

That is some confusiong stuff! Can anyone shed some light on these verses / meanings? I don't believe this is going to be easy! That is, unless some of you have already interpreted them.... Look forward to your responses... I expect to be studying these 3 verses for qutie some time.

Here is my contribution to your question/request...I will be as brief as I can be...though trimming it down to post still takes a bit of work and a few posts...hope it helps.

“Then there was given me a measuring rod like a staff”

Let’s take a close look at what John said here…when he wrote…“Then there was given me a measuring rod like a staff”…these two words “rod or reed” and “staff” respectively…is really a combination or melding together of two instruments…into one specific standard of “measure or rule.”

1. “Rod” G2563 – “kalamos”…the plant or its stem, or that of a similar plant…a reed, reed-staff, measuring rod.
2. “Staff” G4464 – “rhabdos”… a rod, staff, staff of authority, scepter…a stick or wand (as a cudgel, a cane or a baton of royalty)…It is figuratively applied to a king…so with a rod of iron…indicates the severest…most rigorous…rule…equivalent to a royal scepter.

When we bring these two items together we are being shown a specific unit of measurement associated to the rule of a King…a Royal Scepter…a standard of measure and in this case a “divine standard or measure.”

When I was looking into these words…I came across a Greek word that really combined “kalamos and rhabdos” nicely into one definition that word is…“kanón.”

1. “Rod, Staff, Rule” G2583 – “kanón” a rule, regulation, rule of conduct or doctrine. A measured (defined) area, province. A reed, and a spear, and a straight stick or staff.

Properly, a rod or straight piece of rounded wood to which anything is fastened to keep it straight; used for various purposes…a measuring rod, rule…a carpenter's line or measuring tape. The reference also implies a standard by which it is to be determined the readiness of the House of God.

Because one of the things spoken of concerning the Lord Yahshua was, from Isaiah 11, “A Rod will come from the stump of Jesse.” The rod has a double meaning…it is the standard of measurement…and…because it is the standard of measurement…it is an instrument of correction and judgment.

Judgment inevitably comes whenever the righteousness of the standard has been brought back and applied. That is what we are seeing. Christ is appearing in His temple…and He is cleansing the temple of the moneychangers, the vagabonds, the thieves, the deceivers, and the delusional…He is cleansing His House.

The “measuring rod like a staff”…is the Lord Yahshua Christ…the standard and the corrector.

on to the next part.

Redd...:)

 

[Reddsta]

Part 2

“Get up and measure the temple of God”

The common reference to the “temple” in the Book of Acts is to the Greek word hieron and that was reference to a building. However…the reference here, “measure the temple of God”…is to the term naos. Commonly, the naos was called the sanctuary.

In a Greek temple, the naos was where the altar and the image of the god whose temple it was…are. That was what was called the sanctuary, where the essence of the deity was housed. So there was the hieron, the building; and there was naos…the dwelling place of God.

When the angel gives him a measuring rod and instructs him to measure the temple, “Rise and measure the temple and the altar,” he is speaking about a “people” the dwelling place of God. As Paul would say to the Corinthians, “Do you not know that your bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit” the temple of God? For the Holy Spirit dwells in you.

Do you know why we are a holy people? Do you know why we are one holy nation "One New Man?" Why we are set apart? Because the Holy Spirit lives in us…the living God Himself inhabits that portion of our being that He created as His own habitation. That is why we were initially given a spirit…and by the way…the spirit that we were given originated…from the very person of God Himself....together we are the "temple and dwelling place of God."

The “temple of God” is the Head and Body known as Christ that hosts the Spirit of God.

Redd...:)

On to part 3...

 

[Reddsta]

Part 3...

“and the altar, and those who worship in it”

Now the Lord is measuring the temple…what else is He measuring? He is measuring the “altar.” The altar is the evidence of a sacrificed life.

“I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice” (Romans 12:1).

A living sacrifice is that which lives for the benefit of another. So in that sense, they have been decapitated…they have been beheaded for the witness of Christ. They live up to being authentic representations of His person…which would be such things as humility, of love, of vulnerability, of trust, and faith.

So, measure the “altar” because you are looking for “sacrifice”…you are looking for “living sacrifices” by whom the good, the pleasing, and even the perfect will of God might be seen and measure...in this sense…that when Christ who is your life appears, you will appear with Him in the glory of His appearing (Colossians 3:4).

Measure those who worship there. Interesting, isn’t it, that it would be said that worship and altar go together? Because what is the worship of God, ultimately? The worship of God is with our lives...the sum and substance of our lives being based upon and lived for the benefit of and to put on display the glory of the Lord, His glorious inheritance in the saints. I beseech you therefore, brethren…He is certifying...now!

This is the revelation that speaks of God certifying the finished work…"a man in the image and likeness of God." God is certifying such a man because He is about to reveal him, knowing that in the revealing of this man, Christ the son of God...the opposition will immediately come.

The “alter and those who worship in it” are those who have offered their lives…beheaded if you will…to the Lord as their “living sacrifice” doing His will…not their own…which is “their spiritual service of worship.”

Redd...:)

on to part 4

 

[Reddsta]

Part 4

"Leave out the court which is outside the temple and do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations; and they will tread under foot the holy city for forty-two months.”

You do not measure the court which is outside…this would be more in the hieron…because you are in the court of the temple. The “outer court” is in the proximity of the “inner court”…the “naos”…but these are “not” in the “inner court.”

This has to do with the “nations, gentiles, heathen” who Paul writes in 2nd Timothy 3:1-9 are defined as those who are…“holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power…” those who hang around the “temple of God” but are not in it. So you do not measure that because it is already a given that it has resisted the rod of correction.

The rod that represents the standard of Christ is known not to apply to the outer court. It is where the unbelievers are, but they are masquerading as believers. But they are not the naos of God.

The Lord whom you seek, according to chapter 3 of the Book of Malachi, appears in the naos of God. When Christ who is your life appears, you appear with Him in the glory of His appearing. That is what Ezekiel was picturing in chapter 43:10. This is the house…the perfect house…that is shown to the outside house, the court of the Gentiles. You do not measure it because it is a given that it is noncompliant…it is an aberration…and it will actually oppose that which is the naos of God.

The outer court has been given to the Gentiles, “and they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months”...quite like Yahshua appearing in Israel for three-and-a-half years…and what was the verdict? He came unto His own and His own received Him not.

So, when what God is doing is revealed…when the house is shown to the house…when the standard of God’s righteousness embodied in a holy people is shown in the court of the unbelievers…the harlot will be disclosed for who she actually is.

And this showing will be, in type and shadow, like Yahshua showed what the law and the prophets stood for; Yahshua showed what Israel existed to embrace...to foreshadow…to receive...and yet when He came…He was refused. He was rejected and killed because that is the only way you can keep doing what you want to do…you have to do away with the standard.

Redd...:)

On to part 5

 

[Reddsta]

Part 5

The “measuring rod like a staff”…is the Lord Yahshua Christ…the judge, the standard of a godly life and the “rod of correction.”

The “temple of God” is the "Head and Body" known as "Christ" that hosts the Spirit of God…His dwelling place…the “naos.”

The “alter and those who worship in it” are those who have offered their lives…beheaded if you will…to the Lord as their “living sacrifice” doing His will…not their own…which is “their spiritual service of worship.”

The picture that emerges here as I have explained is…the Head building and strengthening His Body [Ephesians 4] via sacrifice…to learn obedience to grow into the “full stature of maturity that belongs to Christ.”

This mature Body which “measures up and has been certified as holy” is the spiritual “temple of God” hosting His very presence. Those in the temple…the Body…have become “living sacrificial offerings” as their “worship” of God…who accepts It.

This is the “son of God” known as “Christ…Head and Body” raised up and fully mature being able to support the full glory and grace of God in the earth. He…is the “King of kings upon His throne” and the “High Priest”…also known as the “Royal Priest.”

This “One New Man” operates in the earth as “King and High Priest”…and His actions are underwritten by the throne of God. And that should explain the next verse for you.

"And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”

That is what happens next…when the two witnesses come and present the truth of Christ as the picture of the house that has been judged and certified. The naos…the dwelling place of God…has been judged and certified as a people of sacrificed lives…and their worship is acceptable to God. He hears them…He knows them…He responds to them…He empowers and gives to them the right to judge…and that is what the two witnesses will do shortly.

More on that later…it takes time to lay that out...by now you can see that this won't play well with a pre-trib rapture.

Redd...:)

 

[CTK]

Part 5

The “measuring rod like a staff”…is the Lord Yahshua Christ…the judge, the standard of a godly life and the “rod of correction.”

The “temple of God” is the "Head and Body" known as "Christ" that hosts the Spirit of God…His dwelling place…the “naos.”

The “alter and those who worship in it” are those who have offered their lives…beheaded if you will…to the Lord as their “living sacrifice” doing His will…not their own…which is “their spiritual service of worship.”

The picture that emerges here as I have explained is…the Head building and strengthening His Body [Ephesians 4] via sacrifice…to learn obedience to grow into the “full stature of maturity that belongs to Christ.”

This mature Body which “measures up and has been certified as holy” is the spiritual “temple of God” hosting His very presence. Those in the temple…the Body…have become “living sacrificial offerings” as their “worship” of God…who accepts It.

This is the “son of God” known as “Christ…Head and Body” raised up and fully mature being able to support the full glory and grace of God in the earth. He…is the “King of kings upon His throne” and the “High Priest”…also known as the “Royal Priest.”

This “One New Man” operates in the earth as “King and High Priest”…and His actions are underwritten by the throne of God. And that should explain the next verse for you.

"And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”

That is what happens next…when the two witnesses come and present the truth of Christ as the picture of the house that has been judged and certified. The naos…the dwelling place of God…has been judged and certified as a people of sacrificed lives…and their worship is acceptable to God. He hears them…He knows them…He responds to them…He empowers and gives to them the right to judge…and that is what the two witnesses will do shortly.

More on that later…it takes time to lay that out...by now you can see that this won't play well with a pre-trib rapture.

Redd...:)

Absolutely wonderful!!!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I have a feeling this is going to be a long These few verses …11:1-10 perhaps are going to take some elbow grease! So far, Revelation has been quite consistent in that it is written symbolically. I would not think that would change in these verses. I am looking at this as follows: We have the Temple that represents those who follow Jesus, we have the Altar, who may represent those that follow Jesus and may have been martyred for their devotion to Him. We have the outer court of the Gentiles who may represent those who have not accepted Jesus and are / will not be allowed to go further into the Sanctuary, and now we have the holy city to define. Perhaps this represents the entire Christian community that is ruled by the little horn (papacy). It has become this global system that is far from the church established but Jesus .

Now, we have the 2 witnesses- I believe they are also symbolic and not literal people … ???????

Any thoughts are appreciated!

If you use scripture to interpret scripture then you should see that the holy city represents the new Jerusalem.

Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

The new Jerusalem symbolically represents the church. It is called "the bride, the Lamb's wife" (Revelation 21:9).

I believe the two witnesses symbolically represent the church as well. They are said to be "the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.". In Revelation, candlesticks (or lampstands) represent churches (see Rev 1:20). So, I see the two witnesses as representing the Jew and Gentile congregations brought together as one bringing the gospel to the world.

The two witnesses being symbolically represented by two olive trees supports that view as well. If you look at Romans 11, you can see Paul describing a wild olive tree's branches being grafted onto the natural olive tree and the natural branches represent Israelites. Only believing Israelites remained in the cultivated olive tree with unbelieving Israelites being cut off and Gentile believers (represent by branches of the wild olive tree) being grafted in with them. That's a representation of the church which consists of Jew and Gentile believers together as one body of Christ.

 

[Reddsta]

I believe the two witnesses symbolically represent the church as well.

I am suggesting that it is the “Body of Christ”…which I believe is different than the church. The “apostasy” is what separates the “church” from the “Body of Christ”…the event depicted in Revelation 12:5???

They are said to be "the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.". In Revelation, candlesticks (or lampstands) represent churches (see Rev 1:20).

We can get a better understanding of these “two olive trees, and the two candlesticks” with some study of both Zechariah 4:1-14 and Zechariah 6:9-15.

I see the two witnesses as representing the Jew and Gentile congregations brought together as one bringing the gospel to the world.

The two witnesses being symbolically represented by two olive trees supports that view as well.

Well you are going to run into a challenge with this perspective if you continue to separate the two “ethnicities” by their fleshly designations…”Jew and gentile”…as Paul writes in Ephesians 2:14…“For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall.”

“Christ”…is not a “physical ethnic” man…remember? He is a “Spirit Man”…made up of “the spirits of just men made perfect” as explained in Hebrews 12. He is “neither Jew nor gentile” exactly as Paul wrote to the Galatians in chapter 3. Yahshua tore down the wall between the “Jew and the gentile” making them “one new spirit man” and His ethnicity or citizenship is “heavenly” not “earthly.”

Interestingly enough…the “two witnesses” are actually comprised of the “one new man”…perhaps as you suggest…Christ Head and Body…so I would say you’re close…very close. It’s probably not physical ethnicity that defines the “two witnesses” as you suggest…but rather their “character and nature” attributes…which you can get from Zechariah as I mentioned above.

If you look at Romans 11, you can see Paul describing a wild olive tree's branches being grafted onto the natural olive tree and the natural branches represent Israelites. Only believing Israelites remained in the cultivated olive tree with unbelieving Israelites being cut off and Gentile believers (represent by branches of the wild olive tree) being grafted in with them.

This may be true in part…however as I said earlier…the wall between the “Jews and the gentiles” was broken down and they are already being formed into “One New Spirit Man.” This man embodies the constituency of “two witnesses” which we will find are the defining “characteristics” of this One New Man named “Christ.”

As I stated in my posts…specifically #32 I believe it was…the two witnesses are the “King of kings” who is on the throne of God…which King...is also the “High Priest”…and you have a “High Priest” sitting on the throne of God as King…this is the “two fold” description of the spiritual characteristics of a “Royal Priesthood” these are your "two witnesses" on display as the “mature” Body of Christ in the earth…see Revelation 4.

Redd...:)

 

[ewq1938]

As I stated in my posts…specifically #32 I believe it was…the two witnesses are the “King of kings”

They are the King of Kings not Jesus?

 

[Reddsta]

They are the King of Kings not Jesus?

Greetings @ewq1938...

That may be your question...but its not the right question. All that comprises the Body of Christ on earth and in heaven know...that the Lord Yahshua Christ is the King of kings...of that there is no doubt among them.

Allow me to bring the whole of my statement into view for you.

"As I stated in my posts…specifically #32 I believe it was…the two witnesses are the “King of kings” who is on the throne of God…which King...is also the “High Priest”…and you have a “High Priest” sitting on the throne of God as King…this is the “two fold” description of the spiritual characteristics of a “Royal Priesthood” these are your "two witnesses" on display as the “mature” Body of Christ in the earth…see Revelation 4."

"Christ"...the Son of God...is made up of it's glorious Head our Lord Yahshua...and His Body...which will one day soon...be in "exact proportion" to its Head. By that I mean that He will be able to support the full grace and glory of God which belongs to Him.

This "One New Man"...Christ Head and Body...is presently in the process of being raised to a "maturity" that is said to be "to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ"...and we are currently in the process of being grown up "in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ"

So...when "Christ...the Son of God...Head and Body...as One Man" reaches full maturity...He will be manifest to creation in the "sons of God." This is when creation will see the Lord as He appears in His house...in His people...His temple...on the earth as the Royal Priest of heaven upon the throne of God.

The "two witnesses" mentioned in Revelation 11 are the twin anointing's of King upon the throne of God ruling as the High Priest in the eternal order of Melchizedek. He is known as "Christ...the Son of the living God" for He will be like His Father in every way. He will be indestructible in His sojourn on the dark and evil earth to culminate the age.

I suspect that many of them will suffer a physical death in that time...however because of the power of the "eternal life" within them...I say they are indestructible. The Holy Spirit looks at physical death differently than most of humanity.

Tatwo...:)

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I am suggesting that it is the “Body of Christ”…which I believe is different than the church. The “apostasy” is what separates the “church” from the “Body of Christ”…the event depicted in Revelation 12:5???

What is the basis for thinking that the body of Christ is different than the church? What do you think is required for someone to be part of the body of Christ? What do you think is required for someone to be part of the church?

We can get a better understanding of these “two olive trees, and the two candlesticks” with some study of both Zechariah 4:1-14 and Zechariah 6:9-15.

I disagree. What people miss when they try to compare the two witnesses to Zechariah 4 is that there is only one candlestick referenced in Zechariah 4, not two. I think it makes more sense to look at Romans 11 for help in identifying what the two witnesses represent.

Well you are going to run into a challenge with this perspective if you continue to separate the two “ethnicities” by their fleshly designations…”Jew and gentile”…as Paul writes in Ephesians 2:14…“For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall.”

You're not understanding what I'm saying. I'm not separating them, I'm saying they work together as one because Jew and Gentile believers were made one, as verses like Ephesians 2:14 indicate.

“Christ”…is not a “physical ethnic” man…remember?

I didn't say he was. You're arguing with a straw man here, which is a complete waste of time.

He is a “Spirit Man”…made up of “the spirits of just men made perfect” as explained in Hebrews 12. He is “neither Jew nor gentile” exactly as Paul wrote to the Galatians in chapter 3. Yahshua tore down the wall between the “Jew and the gentile” making them “one new spirit man” and His ethnicity or citizenship is “heavenly” not “earthly.”

I did not say otherwise. Any time you waste making straw man arguments is time you can never get back.

Interestingly enough…the “two witnesses” are actually comprised of the “one new man”…perhaps as you suggest…Christ Head and Body…so I would say you’re close…very close.

I'm saying that the two witnesses symbolically reference the church. Do you agree or not?

It’s probably not physical ethnicity that defines the “two witnesses” as you suggest…

but rather their “character and nature” attributes…which you can get from Zechariah as I mentioned above.

What do you mean by that exactly? What exactly do you believe the two witnesses represent? What character and nature attributes define the two witnesses? And does this even matter if we are both concluding that the two witnesses symbolically represent the church?

This may be true in part…however as I said earlier…the wall between the “Jews and the gentiles” was broken down and they are already being formed into “One New Spirit Man.”

Again, I'm not saying otherwise. You misunderstood what I was saying, unfortunately. I'm not saying they are separate, I'm saying they work together as one. It describes two witnesses, not one, right? Yet, I believe they work together as one.

This man embodies the constituency of “two witnesses” which we will find are the defining “characteristics” of this One New Man named “Christ.”

As I stated in my posts…specifically #32 I believe it was…the two witnesses are the “King of kings” who is on the throne of God…which King...is also the “High Priest”…and you have a “High Priest” sitting on the throne of God as King…this is the “two fold” description of the spiritual characteristics of a “Royal Priesthood” these are your "two witnesses" on display as the “mature” Body of Christ in the earth…see Revelation 4.

Redd...:)

You are not easy to follow. Can you try to communicate more straightforwardly? In simple terms, who or what exactly do you believe the two witnesses represent? It seems that you believe they represent Jesus as "King of kings" and as "high priest"? Or do you see the two witnesses as being Jesus and the body of Christ together? Just spell it out for me so I don't have to guess.

 

[Reddsta]

What is the basis for thinking that the body of Christ is different than the church?

The life that is being lived…here is a very basic picture of how I see it…there is more.

Life in the “Body of Christ” is family…“fathers and children”…continually living life together with one another, eat meals together…in a “personal and daily” basis. Intimate spirit lead relationships, sharing everything with and supporting in every way…”the Apostolic Doctrine”…”The Fellowship of the Believers”…as depicted in the latter parts of Acts 2 – 5ish. It is a picture of a people who live in the power of Christ’s eternal life while spiritually dwelling in heaven as they live their lives on earth…as the Lord Himself did.

The modern “church” is an institutional model brought forth from the old historical Roman church…[Constantine early 4th century style] Its governed like a corporation complete with its hierarchy…it’s a divided caste structure of administration and control that is historically and typically a nexus between itself and the state.

It’s not the spiritual Kingdom of God…though I have been assured that…some of the “sons of God” are yet “in her…[church]”…and He is calling them out. Let those who have ears to hear…hear.

Institutional church is a place where typically…a connection between people is scheduled but infrequent…though some churches are better in this way than others…generally there is very little if any spiritual fellowship…”koinonia”…relationship happening there.

Additionally for example…in terms of the direction of evangelical church in the U.S. in general today…I see the rise of factions like “Christian nationalism, seven mountains mandate, new apostolic reformation” style structures. These are the carnal desires of men…that the Holy Spirit does not empower.

Redd...:)

 

[Reddsta]

What do you think is required for someone to be part of the body of Christ?

Well to begin with…the Holy Spirit additionally the Body of Christ has “specific parts”…many of them [1st Corinthians 12, Romans 12] for reference. These “parts” are members of the One Body who are “called” according to God’s “predestined foreknown intention for each of them” as written in Romans 8:14-17, 8:28-30…Ephesians 1: 9-12, 2:10, 4:1-6…Philippians 3:14…2nd Timothy 1:7-11…1st Peter 1:13-16, 3:8-9.

Along with those references from immediately above…ones “call” is a direct act of God towards each one of His children…consider what Paul wrote in Ephesians 1…[emphasis mine]…“I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, (19) and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe.

“His inheritance in the saints”…meaning that which He desires to inherit…in the saints…as a result of the harvest from His creation [Genesis 1:26-27] His “intimate and high calling” of each of His children is the means to which He connects them with His giftings, anointings and the grace [inheritance] to empower and support them as they grow and mature in His calling…this is how He ensures that they are “conformed to the image of His Son.”

Someone in the Body of Christ is intently focused on their call and how it integrates into the functioning of rest of the Body…[intimate fellowship and relationship building]. Additionally as Paul wrote in Ephesians 4 each member of the Body of Christ is expected spiritually mature or grow to become “a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. As a result, we are no longer to be children” additionally Paul admonishes us “to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ.”

So…a functioning member in the living Body of Christ is born again into the family of God which is made up of spiritual fathers, mothers, brothers and sisters…as a spiritual infant…who is then raised up through the stages spiritual growth and maturity in the family of God to become a mature spiritual adult. One who has learned how to operate effectively in their call…by successfully living out their gifts and anointing as the grace of God in and to the Body of Christ.

Thereby presenting the experiential manifestation of the Lord to the world around them.

Redd...:)