Regeneration before or after saving faith

[SovereignGrace]

And who ordained that nature, even the fall of man, according to Calvinism?

God ordained the fall. God ordained the crucifixion of the Christ. God ordained Joseph being sold into slavery.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Knowing Christ requires a personal response. The salvation work is all his.

Salvation causes the response, but you cannot accept this fact. No, no, not going to have it all of God, you have to step in front of him. See how I showed you your aversion to this truth? All of your responses are to give yourself glory.

No man believes the gospel or wills his own salvation into the kingdom by their will. Romans 9:16 & James 1:18 show this to be the case, as well as John 1:13. Ephesians 1:19, Romans 10:17 and 2 Peter 1:1 both show faith as a gift outside of ourselves coming and gifted from God.

Now, I know what you're going to do with this: You're going to tell us how YOU did it. Here it comes!

And let's not forget, you'll be banging out your response even before looking at this post and texts that show you to be in error.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

And who ordained that nature, even the fall of man, according to Calvinism?

So you skip right over the text that shows you are incorrect, right? Can't have us answering you and refuting you from Scripture so you just ignore it.

You posted a straw man, and I showed you that from Scripture that you're, well, wrong. But that won't stop you now will it?

 

[Candidus]

You are posting with your emotions and not scripture. The bible is silent about the whereabouts of infants upon death. David was talking about going to be buried with his son. In Psalms he speaks of himself being born sinful. In fact, he even confesses he was conceived in sin, and was brought forth in iniquity[Psalms 51:5]. Then in Psalms 58:3-5 he speaks of how the wicked come forth from the womb sinful. He is not going to write that then contradict himself later and say that babies upon death are ushered straight into heaven. You are making a case for abortion to actually be a good thing. Just abort all babies and populate heaven. That would be more humane than letting them grow up to this mythical 'age of accountability', then dying later and going to hell.

Again, in 1 Samuel 15:1-3, God commands Saul, through Samuel, to completely wipe out the Amalekites. Even the infants and children were to be slaughtered. God does not view babies like we do. Babies are born dead in Adam.

You are posting with dogma and circular reasoning, and not Scripture. Once again, where have I ever said that infants were "innocent"? If you were listening instead of knocking down strawmen of your own invention, we could be dealing with your evasion to prove that there are no infants in heaven.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

God ordained the fall. God ordained the crucifixion of the Christ. God ordained Joseph being sold into slavery.

Bingo! He even arranged things by secondary means to kill some. Absalom is one example. There are more examples.

The problem? They think it is unjust of God to do this showing they have an errant view of both God and mankind.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Nothing Calvinistic here. So God knew who would believe, not because they were irresistibly ordained to believe, but because he is God and knows who has prepared thier heart to receive him.

See? There you go giving man the glory again.

He rewarded you with salvation because while hating God, being dead in sin, unable to come, being under wrath, and not being capable to be saved by willing it, you did it anyway out of your own sincere love for God. Should we all say "Congrats" with you for your "personal achievement?"

 

[Renniks]

Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, “My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure;”[Isaiah 46:10]

It’s not a man made doctrine at all my friend. Nothing is done outside of His decrees.

Again, this does not say that everything that happens is by God's decree. It merely states that God will bring about his plan, regardless of what people do.

The Calvinist view is like this:
"Commenting on Isaiah 46:8-11, in his sermon, “The Sovereignty of God: ‘My Counsel Shall Stand, and I Will Accomplish All My Purpose,'” Piper informs us that God “declares his foreknowledge … by declaring his fore-counsel and his fore-purposing.” (link) The concept of foreknowledge in Calvinism is simply understood in terms of foreordination. God does not truly see or foreknow what will happen — He has foreordained all that will happen.

That means all sin is God's doing. It's the inescapable conclusion of Calvinist theology.

But what does God also say In Isaiah?
“I [the God of Israel] reared children and brought them up, but they have rebelled against me.” (Isa. 1:2 NRSV)

If we adhere to Calvinism, we must conclude that God decreed for Israel to rebel against Him. But that's not what Isaiah says.
God places all the blame for their rebellion on the Israelites themselves: “Ah, sinful nation, people laden with iniquity, offspring who do evil, children who deal corruptly, who have forsaken the LORD, who have despised the Holy One of Israel, who are utterly estranged!” (Isa. 1:4)

God claims the sin that people commit belongs to them alone; and if we truly believe in the fallen state of humanity, in human depravity, then we understand that we do not need a God-mandated decree in order to sin: we are capable, in our fallen state, of bringing about sin ourselves.
God rejected their worship (Isa. 1:12-15), instructing them instead: “Wash yourselves; make yourselves clean; remove the evil of your doings from before my eyes; cease to do evil, learn to do good; seek justice, rescue the oppressed, defend the orphan, plead for the widow.” (Isa. 1:16, 17)

God doesn't talk like a Calvinist. He says we are capable of deciding to come clean, and capale of ceasing to do evil. There's no suggestion that God decreed our rebellion or theirs.

 

[Renniks]

Even our response comes from God divinely quickening us.

Then, as I said before, we are to do nothing and in fact, we are just automatons, playing our parts. If I sin, it's God sinning. If I do good, it's not my decision to do good, it's God doing it for me. In other words, nothing really matters, whatever will be will be.

 

[Renniks]

See? There you go giving man the glory again.

He rewarded you with salvation because while hating God, being dead in sin, unable to come, being under wrath, and not being capable to be saved by willing it, you did it anyway out of your own sincere love for God. Should we all say "Congrats" with you for your "personal achievement?"

Nothing man glorying about doing what God tells us to do, submit to him. That's the opposite of doing something myself. What takes effort is resisting.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

If you offer bible correction I would welcome it, why would someone resist truth?

How do you determine what is truth

in this example

you claimed I was offered correction

my response was maybe I was offering correction

we can’t both be right can we?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You are not reading what I posted.
He is not quoting the ot.
He is giving new instructions concerning verses 1-8

We must be talking about different passage then. I am talking about rom 9. Paul quoted a lot of OT passages in romans 9. I am curious why you think he did not

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Oh the irony.. from the champion of personal attacks

Hmm he is still At it huh? Sad

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Yes, what God decides to do, he does. That doesn't come close to saying he ordained everything. That's man made doctrine.

Really? Let me ask you a question....how can anything take place that God did not ordain to take place?

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Nothing Calvinistic here. So God knew who would believe, not because they were irresistibly ordained to believe, but because he is God and knows who has prepared thier heart to receive him.

Sorry but you contradict so many scriptures by your man centered theology.
God did not "foreknow " all the children the Father gave to him?
He just knew about them as a spectator?
Do you realize that everytime you ignore truth as here in Acts 18, you turn from light to darkness?

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Depends on how it goes, and the actual context.

No...you are set to resist no matter what.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Knowing Christ requires a personal response. The salvation work is all his.

We do repent and believe as God works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Really? Let me ask you a question....how can anything take place that God did not ordain to take place?

The fact is God knew everything that would take place ever, instantly, perfectly, exhaustively without having to think it through. He didn't have an R&D department to work things through trial and error. In other words his knowledge is beyond comprehension. Steven Charnock influenced me on this in his book The Existence & Attributes of God.

Yes, he created all things knowing, decreeing and allowing all things whatsoever come to pass. Job acknowledged that by God we receive both good and evil and in declaring this to be true, he did not sin for stating it; Job 1:22, Job 2:10. Yet we are accused of many things for embracing these truths.

Christ was also punished by Gods wrath, took our sins upon him, was brutally beaten for our sins, all at God's hand, purpose and decree, Acts 2:23-24. Not one anti-Calvinist considers what the innocent Lamb went through, yet as sinners they are whining about what wicked sinful people suffer in this world, and that it is justly so. "Not fair!" is their cry as they try to get God off the hook.

Unreal...

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Really? Let me ask you a question....how can anything take place that God did not ordain to take place?

Like the fall of mankind and the atrocities of hitler?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Sorry but you contradict so many scriptures by your man centered theology.
God did not "foreknow " all the children the Father gave to him?
He just knew about them as a spectator?
Do you realize that everytime you ignore truth as here in Acts 18, you turn from light to darkness?

This makes no sense what were you trying to say

if it is what I think why would you limit Gods knowledge?

 

[Renniks]

Really? Let me ask you a question....how can anything take place that God did not ordain to take place?

The question itself is illogical. A better question would be why anyone would believe God wills everything that happens when he says he doesn't. When God talks in Job, he never gives an answer to how he interacts with the universe, probably because there's no way for the human mind to comprehend.