Reasons Jews Reject Jesus

[VictoryinJesus]

OK.... again, I am attaching a typical synopsis of the attributes of the Messiah written by the Jews themselves and accepted by Jewish scholars - You know, the ones who wrote the OT, studied it, were inspired by God by it.

The Messiah - Key beliefs in Judaism - GCSE Religious Studies Revision - AQA - BBC Bitesize

Learn about and revise key Jewish beliefs with BBC Bitesize Religious Studies - AQA.

www.bbc.co.uk

If you bother to read it, you will readily notice that there is not one word regarding the attributes of the Messiah that mentions a virgin birth. So when the gospel authors wrote that a virgin birth would be a way to recognize the Messiah - they were either lying, or sadly ignorant of Hebrew eschatology regarding the Messiah. Tell me which one you think is was - ignorance or dishonesty.

I did read it. You asked” So when the gospel authors wrote that a virgin birth would be a way to recognize the Messiah - they were either lying, or sadly ignorant of Hebrew eschatology regarding the Messiah. Tell me which one you think is was - ignorance or dishonesty.”

Ignorance or dishonesty?
In my opinion none of the above but in sight of Christ they understood what was meant by a virgin birth. If I understand correctly what I am trying to ask is this:
If you don’t believe in a miraculous birth
If you don’t believe crucifixion
If you don’t believe in resurrection
Then why look at the church and ask “where is the divine attributes” that is what I’m asking. You seem to be saying regarding the church “I don’t see anything miraculous. I don’t see any crucifixion. I don’t see any resurrection. And I don’t see any divine attributes. All I see are a bunch of hypocrites who are worse off morally than atheists are.” Do I understand that correctly. You said the New Testament writers were either ignorant or dishonest. Does that include Jesus when He said “you must be born again”? Miraculous conception. Crucified. Resurrected. Divine attributes. Do those have anything at all to do with “you must be born again Anew”?

You argue the virgin birth. To me that is like arguing Isaiah 52:1 Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for here-forth there shall no more come into you the uncircumcised and the unclean.

You may ask then by looking at Jerusalem …is there any uncircumcised or unclean? Was this ignorance or dishonest? Again, I would say neither. But a matter of perspective. The NT writers maybe they were also not ignorant nor dishonest, but had a different perspective…

 

[Jim B]

There's a difference in claiming to be saved and actually being saved. I have never believed any Atheist who says he has been saved, including you.

I want to qualify your statement. I was an atheist, and a very serious one, until 1977. I used to argue regularly with a pastor who came to our home, so much so that my wife had to leave when we argued. I became very sick at one point and was hopitalized with an asthma spasm that the doctor's couldn't break. The pastor came to wish me well and asked if she could read Scripture and pray for me. I agreed, so she read Matthew 11:28-30, "Come to me, all you who are weary and are carrying heavy burdens, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.” The she prayed, "Jesus, heal this man". I was healed immediately! The spasm in my chest broke and I was immediately filled with the most wonderful feeling of love, peace, and joy I had ever imagined. I immediately knew that Jesus was real and I accepted Him as my Lord and Savior.

I fully understand the smug intellectualism of atheists -- because I was one for many years. But God, in His loving mercy, overcame my cynicism and doubt. Of course, I hope and pray that what happened to me in the hospital so many years ago will happen to others. There is no joy in denying the truth which is found only in Jesus Christ. There is only the smug cynicism of spiritual poverty. Tragic!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I want to qualify your statement. I was an atheist, and a very serious one, until 1977. I used to argue regularly with a pastor who came to our home, so much so that my wife had to leave when we argued. I became very sick at one point and was hopitalized with an asthma spasm that the doctor's couldn't break. The pastor came to wish me well and asked if she could read Scripture and pray for me. I agreed, so she read Matthew 11:28-30, "Come to me, all you who are weary and are carrying heavy burdens, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.” The she prayed, "Jesus, heal this man". I was healed immediately! The spasm in my chest broke and I was immediately filled with the most wonderful feeling of love, peace, and joy I had ever imagined. I immediately knew that Jesus was real and I accepted Him as my Lord and Savior.

I fully understand the smug intellectualism of atheists -- because I was one for many years. But God, in His loving mercy, overcame my cynicism and doubt. Of course, I hope and pray that what happened to me in the hospital so many years ago will happen to others. There is no joy in denying the truth which is found only in Jesus Christ. There is only the smug cynicism of spiritual poverty. Tragic!

While I am not a Jew, shortly before I accepted Jesus Christ as my Savior in 1992 I used to be an “atheist / agnostic”. I grew up in a liberal Christian home, and I started out believing in God and praying on occasion. In fact, with no knowledge of Christianity or the Bible, I even told a childhood Catholic friend about how it was wrong to pray to Mary (before the age of 11-12 approximately), but when I grew up and went to high school, my Science teacher (who looked like a giant football player) convinced me of Darwinism (Macro-Evolution). Later in high school and also after graduation, God brought various Christian woman into my life. Needless to say I had a crush on these women because they were different and unlike other women. They had a sense of values and or love to them (unlike other women). They started to warm my heart to the possibility of God on an unspoken level. Then one day when I was working at Taco-Bell, another co-worker was managing drive-thru gave me a tract that somebody gave to them. I did not know what it was about, but I decided to read it when I would go home because it was a mini comic book, and I loved Marvel comic books a lot during that time in my life. It was a tract called, “This Was Your Life” by Chick Publications (You can check that out here if you are unfamiliar with it). Anyways, after I took a shower, I read the comic tract on my bed, and I was immediately convicted of my past life of sin and I accepted Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior. I had received a love, joy, and peace that I had never known before and I wanted everyone to feel this way. For a few years, I was on fire for the Lord. But in time, I had lost my fire or passion but I always believed in Jesus as my Savior and wanted others to accept Him (if the opportunity arrived). Then in 2010, after I talked with my Mom about what path I should follow in my life that would truly make me happy, I decided to rededicate my life back to the Lord Jesus Christ and take reading and studying the Bible more seriously. So I started to study, and I talked on Christian forums around 2011 trying to spread the Word of God ever since.

But praise be unto the Lord Jesus Christ that He was able to change you.
God truly is magnificent and nobody is beyond hope.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I believe the Jews as a nation will repent shortly sometime before Christ’s return according to Scripture.
In the mean time, we as Christians should always hold out our hope in leading Jews to Jesus Christ.
We should diligently pray and fast to lead them to Christ.
For God loves all men and He desires that no man shall perish.

 

[Gaffer]

From the wikipedia article that you cite: "Accurate demographics of atheism are difficult to obtain since conceptions of atheism vary considerably across different cultures and languages, ranging from an active concept to being unimportant or not developed. Also in some countries and regions atheism carries a strong stigma, making it harder to count atheists in these countries.[1][2] In global studies, the number of people without a religion is usually higher than the number of people without a belief in a deity[3][4] and the number of people who agree with statements on lacking a belief in a deity is usually higher than the number of people who self-identify as "atheists".

And from the Pew Research article, "Measuring atheism is complicated. Some people who describe themselves as atheists also say they believe in some kind of higher power or spiritual force."

Selective pulling articles and (mis)quoting from them clearly shows that you are fishing for evidence to back up your bolstering of atheism. I suppose you think that you won't be fact-checked, but you're wrong -- on both counts.

You still have never answered my question: why are you participating in a Christian discussion forum to try to prove your atheistic false beliefs? Do you really think that anyone is going to agree with your tragic unbelief? If so, you are, at best, delusional.

So, you couldn't refute either claim, and lack the integrity to admit it. Thanx for playing.
And thanx for pointing out the stigma Atheists face due to the bigotry of Christians.
Guess what? Believing in a higher power that actually exists is just another example of the superior intellect of the Atheist. I believe in a higher power - it's called Humanity. You believe in a god whose 'moral' solution to kids teasing a bald man was to have them slaughtered by bears..... :cool:

 

[Gaffer]

When you consider the price He paid for your redemption, allowing His perfect Son to be shamed, spit on, beaten nearly to death and hanged on a tree to die, you can rest assured He's dead serious on how you react to the One called Christ.

The price he paid?? Jesus had a bad weekend. Blacks in the Jim Crow south suffered as much, and more - at the hands of loving, faithful Christians.
And I've reacted to the one called Christ by pointing out that he was not the Messiah, as evidenced by the attributes he failed to fulfill. So, not one person here has been able to rebut that claim. Go figger.

 

[Gaffer]

There's a difference in claiming to be saved and actually being saved. I have never believed any Atheist who says he has been saved, including you.

Non sequitur. I made no claim to be saved. I simply pointed out the contradiction of a 'good and loving god' that narcissistically demands worship and threatens eternal suffering if its craven needs aren't met.

 

[Charlie24]

The price he paid?? Jesus had a bad weekend. Blacks in the Jim Crow south suffered as much, and more - at the hands of loving, faithful Christians.
And I've reacted to the one called Christ by pointing out that he was not the Messiah, as evidenced by the attributes he failed to fulfill. So, not one person here has been able to rebut that claim. Go figger.

Approximately 1/3 of Scripture is history, 1/3 instruction, and 1/3 prophesy.

About half of Scriptural prophesy has been fulfilled.

Give Christ the time to fulfill all things, it's for the benefit of humanity.

 

[Gaffer]

I did read it. You asked” So when the gospel authors wrote that a virgin birth would be a way to recognize the Messiah - they were either lying, or sadly ignorant of Hebrew eschatology regarding the Messiah. Tell me which one you think is was - ignorance or dishonesty.”

Ignorance or dishonesty?
In my opinion none of the above but in sight of Christ they understood what was meant by a virgin birth. If I understand correctly what I am trying to ask is this:
If you don’t believe in a miraculous birth
If you don’t believe crucifixion
If you don’t believe in resurrection
Then why look at the church and ask “where is the divine attributes” that is what I’m asking. You seem to be saying regarding the church “I don’t see anything miraculous. I don’t see any crucifixion. I don’t see any resurrection. And I don’t see any divine attributes. All I see are a bunch of hypocrites who are worse off morally than atheists are.” Do I understand that correctly. You said the New Testament writers were either ignorant or dishonest. Does that include Jesus when He said “you must be born again”? Miraculous conception. Crucified. Resurrected. Divine attributes. Do those have anything at all to do with “you must be born again Anew”?

You argue the virgin birth. To me that is like arguing Isaiah 52:1 Awake, awake; put on thy strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city: for here-forth there shall no more come into you the uncircumcised and the unclean.

You may ask then by looking at Jerusalem …is there any uncircumcised or unclean? Was this ignorance or dishonest? Again, I would say neither. But a matter of perspective. The NT writers maybe they were also not ignorant nor dishonest, but had a different perspective…

So your apologetic is that "well, a virgin birth doesn't have to mean a virgin birth..." That's a convenient dodge that I see often. And it's understandable that in the face of a fraud committed by the gospel authors - "Jesus was born of a virgin, thus fulfilling scripture and proving he is the Messiah" - when in fact a virgin birth was not even an attribute listed in OT Messianic prophesy - that Christians would be forced to invent this kind of work around. When faced with the Truth that Isaiah 7:14 isn't Messianic, and doesn't in truth even reference a virgin birth - I have had Christians insist that "well, those verses have a SECRET meaning - yeah, that's the ticket!"
Ay caramba......

 

[Charlie24]

So your apologetic is that "well, a virgin birth doesn't have to mean a virgin birth..." That's a convenient dodge that I see often. And it's understandable that in the face of a fraud committed by the gospel authors - "Jesus was born of a virgin, thus fulfilling scripture and proving he is the Messiah" - when in fact a virgin birth was not even an attribute listed in OT Messianic prophesy - that Christians would be forced to invent this kind of work around. When faced with the Truth that Isaiah 7:14 isn't Messianic, and doesn't in truth even reference a virgin birth - I have had Christians insist that "well, those verses have a SECRET meaning - yeah, that's the ticket!"
Ay caramba......

LOL, Isaiah plainly predicts a "virgin birth." But the God hating heart of man will not admit it.

From the heart of man comes his "great wisdom," his pride that rules his ways.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

So your apologetic is that "well, a virgin birth doesn't have to mean a virgin birth..." That's a convenient dodge that I see often. And it's understandable that in the face of a fraud committed by the gospel authors - "Jesus was born of a virgin, thus fulfilling scripture and proving he is the Messiah" - when in fact a virgin birth was not even an attribute listed in OT Messianic prophesy - that Christians would be forced to invent this kind of work around. When faced with the Truth that Isaiah 7:14 isn't Messianic, and doesn't in truth even reference a virgin birth - I have had Christians insist that "well, those verses have a SECRET meaning - yeah, that's the ticket!"
Ay caramba......

for clarity then on Isaiah 7:14 Lexicon: "Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel.

Are you suggesting the word “virgin” is and was not even in the verse?
If it is…then who do you say is the virgin that conceived and gave birth?

You can lay a hand to your forehead as a show and sigh of “good grief”. But as much as you think it is ridiculous to consider other perspective’s…considering I have MS and other ailments…I have to wonder that when God said He healed our diseases ….he wasn’t talking about MS. Because I don’t think God is ignorant nor deceptive. I have to then…as you suggest looking at the obvious and your “please people” consider the obvious. doing as you have asked I can either say …well God must have lied or possibly there is another perspective on “healed our diseases” that I’ve misunderstood. By your estimations if I am not miraculously healed of Multiple Sclerosis then God must be a liar because it is stupid to consider anything else could be there in “healed their diseases” because just look at the obvious!

 

[VictoryinJesus]

So your apologetic is that "well, a virgin birth doesn't have to mean a virgin birth..." That's a convenient dodge that I see often. And it's understandable that in the face of a fraud committed by the gospel authors - "Jesus was born of a virgin, thus fulfilling scripture and proving he is the Messiah" - when in fact a virgin birth was not even an attribute listed in OT Messianic prophesy - that Christians would be forced to invent this kind of work around. When faced with the Truth that Isaiah 7:14 isn't Messianic, and doesn't in truth even reference a virgin birth - I have had Christians insist that "well, those verses have a SECRET meaning - yeah, that's the ticket!"
Ay caramba......

also. Something that stands out is Jesus said “I only say and do what I see my Father do.” God is Spirit. What does the Spirit say and do? So to me every thing Jesus said and did revealed something of the Father who is Spirit. Not necessarily teaching “go out you people and walk on water” but instead the roar and waves rising and falling in a storm “He puts all things under His feet” all raging of people’s and even the seas obey Him…calming and “be still”. Stupid. Or application for life in a raging unpredictable world? Atheist I’ve read mock a man walking on water …like a fairy tale but the whole of the word is putting all things under His feet in obedience. What if it isn’t a fairy tale but Jesus walking on water revealed God putting all things under His feet which are glorious? Stupid? Maybe? But so is mocking something you refuse to see any other perspective of. Just like the Christian’s you say …”just don’t want to hear” your perspective immediately rolling their eyes. So do atheists. Roll their eyes.

What about the man tossed in between the Fire and Water? Is this a double minded man? Is there any legitimacy to being tossed between water and fire? Or just a man caught between the two? What did Jesus cast out of the man cast back and forth from water to fire?

 

[Gaffer]

LOL, Isaiah plainly predicts a "virgin birth." But the God hating heart of man will not admit it.

From the heart of man comes his "great wisdom," his pride that rules his ways.

No, he doesn't. Isa 7:14 fails on several levels.

1- It's not even Messianic. You can't find a single Jewish scholar or rabbi - or any credible list of Messianic attributes from the Jewish experts themselves that think it is. Why? Because

2- It doesn't say anything about a virgin birth. If Isaiah was talking about a virgin giving birth, he would have used the Hebrew word for virgin - bethulah, the way he did over and over again elsewhere. The way every OT author used the word. Instead, he uses the word for a 'young woman' - almah.

3- Anyone with an IQ over 12 that has actually read the story knows that it has nothing to do with a virgin birth. It plainly tells the story of Isaiah letting King Ahaz know that before this child named Immanuel reaches a certain age of understanding, god will vanquish all of the Kinds enemies.

4- Guess what - Isaiah's prophesy FAILED. Ahaz got his ass kicked by his enemies.

These facts are well known by both Jewish, and in Truth, Christian scholars. But your gospel authors were so desperate to create a story that would appeal to their pagan marks - knowing they were ignorant of OT scripture - that they fraudulently reinvented it as Messianic prophesy and squeezed Jesus into it. That Christians are completely ignorant of this fraud is an embarrassment. But here we are, with 2 billion victims - lied to repeatedly by their church - still tithing to this multi trillion dollar scam.

I often have Christians ask me "Why are you so angry? Why do you hate god so much?"

The answer is that Christians confuse anger and hate with the profound sadness we feel for your terrible loss. You have lost your willingness and ability to Reason. You have abrogated doing the honest work of studying the bible for comprehension to the clergy that makes their living off of your blind credulity. It makes us incredibly sad to know that you are the ones that need saving. But some of us are still willing to try. All I can do is speak Truth to power.

 

[Gaffer]

for clarity then on Isaiah 7:14 Lexicon: "Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel.

Are you suggesting the word “virgin” is and was not even in the verse?
If it is…then who do you say is the virgin that conceived and gave birth?

I'm stating as a well known fact that the use of the word 'virgin' is a proven translation error:

• ” Isaiah 7:14 Mistranslation The word Almah has been mistranslated by most Christians as “ virgin.” In truth, this word means " young woman. " Additionally, the definite article (Ha-ה) means " the " and indicates that the prophet is speaking about a specific woman who he can point to.

You can learn more of the Truth exposing the fraud committed by the gospel authors in my response to Charlie24 elsewhere.

Your church knew this error full well, and yet lied to you about it anyway. How does that make you feel?

 

[Charlie24]

No, he doesn't. Isa 7:14 fails on several levels.

1- It's not even Messianic. You can't find a single Jewish scholar or rabbi - or any credible list of Messianic attributes from the Jewish experts themselves that think it is. Why? Because

2- It doesn't say anything about a virgin birth. If Isaiah was talking about a virgin giving birth, he would have used the Hebrew word for virgin - bethulah, the way he did over and over again elsewhere. The way every OT author used the word. Instead, he uses the word for a 'young woman' - almah.

3- Anyone with an IQ over 12 that has actually read the story knows that it has nothing to do with a virgin birth. It plainly tells the story of Isaiah letting King Ahaz know that before this child named Immanuel reaches a certain age of understanding, god will vanquish all of the Kinds enemies.

4- Guess what - Isaiah's prophesy FAILED. Ahaz got his ass kicked by his enemies.

These facts are well known by both Jewish, and in Truth, Christian scholars. But your gospel authors were so desperate to create a story that would appeal to their pagan marks - knowing they were ignorant of OT scripture - that they fraudulently reinvented it as Messianic prophesy and squeezed Jesus into it. That Christians are completely ignorant of this fraud is an embarrassment. But here we are, with 2 billion victims - lied to repeatedly by their church - still tithing to this multi trillion dollar scam.

I often have Christians ask me "Why are you so angry? Why do you hate god so much?"

The answer is that Christians confuse anger and hate with the profound sadness we feel for your terrible loss. You have lost your willingness and ability to Reason. You have abrogated doing the honest work of studying the bible for comprehension to the clergy that makes their living off of your blind credulity. It makes us incredibly sad to know that you are the ones that need saving. But some of us are still willing to try. All I can do is speak Truth to power.

LOL, the "Masters of the Law" the Jewish scholars are the ones who started this junk.

They hate Christ as much as you do! Several truths of Christ denied by the Jews can be pointed out in Scripture.

The Atheist is just following suit in the rejection of the Christ.

 

[Wrangler]

I often have Christians ask me "Why are you so angry? Why do you hate god so much?"

The answer is that Christians confuse anger and hate with the profound sadness we feel for your terrible loss ... All I can do is speak Truth to power.

So, in your own way, you are here evangelizing.

 

[Gaffer]

also. Something that stands out is Jesus said “I only say and do what I see my Father do.” God is Spirit. What does the Spirit say and do? So to me every thing Jesus said and did revealed something of the Father who is Spirit. Not necessarily teaching “go out you people and walk on water” but instead the roar and waves rising and falling in a storm “He puts all things under His feet” all raging of people’s and even the seas obey Him…calming and “be still”. Stupid. Or application for life in a raging unpredictable world? Atheist I’ve read mock a man walking on water …like a fairy tale but the whole of the word is putting all things under His feet in obedience. What if it isn’t a fairy tale but Jesus walking on water revealed God putting all things under His feet which are glorious? Stupid? Maybe? But so is mocking something you refuse to see any other perspective of. Just like the Christian’s you say …”just don’t want to hear” your perspective immediately rolling their eyes. So do atheists. Roll their eyes.

What about the man tossed in between the Fire and Water? Is this a double minded man? Is there any legitimacy to being tossed between water and fire? Or just a man caught between the two? What did Jesus cast out of the man cast back and forth from water to fire?

Well, you quoting Jesus will clearly mean nothing to me until you provide the evidence that he was even the Messiah. Let's not put the cart before the horse. I have presented clear evidence from the OT experts that Jesus is not the Messiah. You yourself provide even more evidence when you claim that Jesus was divine. That claim is precisely when the Jews knew he was NOT the Messiah. Do you have a rebuttal to the claims of Hebrew scholars regarding the attributes of the Messiah? If not, there's no need for us to waste more time. With my 3 cancers and heart condition, I try to invest my time wisely. :)

 

[Wrangler]

Your church knew this error full well, and yet lied to you about it anyway. How does that make you feel?

I have pointed out this same error many times myself. It makes me feel sad that people feel the need to mythologize a connection to the OT with Jesus that is simply not there.

I could explain more but that is against the current rules. If you want me to explain more, PM me.

 

[Wrangler]

Well, you quoting Jesus will clearly mean nothing to me until you provide the evidence that he was even the Messiah.

I may have missed it. What is your answer to the OP?

 

[Jim B]

So, you couldn't refute either claim, and lack the integrity to admit it. Thanx for playing.
And thanx for pointing out the stigma Atheists face due to the bigotry of Christians.
Guess what? Believing in a higher power that actually exists is just another example of the superior intellect of the Atheist. I believe in a higher power - it's called Humanity. You believe in a god whose 'moral' solution to kids teasing a bald man was to have them slaughtered by bears..... :cool:

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