Q for JW- KIEW?

[PS95]

Well said!

thanks jack. it is what it is huh?

 

[The Learner]

Hi RLT,

I'm happy to have you post! I want so badly for these JWs to see that Romans 6 is not about our physical death.

Jane brought up hell and I purposefully did not address it because they don't believe in punishment after death. That's a whole other topic. I want to keep them on topic of Romans 6:7 ,23. It's very serious. Jesus was spotless, blameless in death, and it's is utterly ignored that is what God requires! They are literally trying to SUBSTITUTE for Jesus . Do you see this? I don't think they see it!

Can you imagine thinking that we die to pay for our own sins? Jesus only died for Adam's original sin according to them, and Adam will not be resurrected. So, Jesus did not die for him either, but for original sin. They say, Jesus does not cover our personal sins. We have to die to pay for those. They think that the wages of sin is death means that we are paying our sin debt to God. They don't understand that a wage is something you have earned, a wage, your punishment,-- not us paying God, but him paying us what we deserve!

They don't even address the rest of the sentence of verse 23. They say they understand grace, and yet they are so far off that it's horrifying.
I want them to be free. I have many family members that are JWs. They don't speak to me. I was never baptized as a Jw but I have been shunned for as long as I can recall.
Aunty Jane has told me that she didn't have bible knowledge when she had "bible" studies with Jws 50+ yrs ago. Bible is in quotes because it is actually Watchtower book study with the bible along side. Verses are cherry-picked and woven into their own doctrines. You don't realize that is what is happening at the time. It happened to me too!
People that don't know their bible are especially at risk with Jws. So, I have sympathy for them. I hate what they teach, but I don't hate them. They are victims- angry, self-righteous, rude, know it alls too.. yes lol but still naked and in need of Christ.
Help me keep them on topic, please?

Romans 6

Easy-to-Read Version

​

Dead to Sin but Alive in Christ​

6 So do you think we should continue sinning so that God will give us more and more grace? 2 Of course not! Our old sinful life ended. It’s dead. So how can we continue living in sin? 3 Did you forget that all of us became part of Christ Jesus when we were baptized? In our baptism we shared in his death. 4 So when we were baptized, we were buried with Christ and took part in his death. And just as Christ was raised from death by the wonderful power of the Father, so we can now live a new life.
5 Christ died, and we have been joined with him by dying too. So we will also be joined with him by rising from death as he did. 6 We know that our old life was put to death on the cross with Christ. This happened so that our sinful selves would have no power over us. Then we would not be slaves to sin. 7 Anyone who has died is made free from sin’s control.
8 If we died with Christ, we know that we will also live with him. 9 Christ was raised from death. And we know that he cannot die again. Death has no power over him now. 10 Yes, when Christ died, he died to defeat the power of sin one time—enough for all time. He now has a new life, and his new life is with God. 11 In the same way, you should see yourselves as being dead to the power of sin and alive for God through Christ Jesus.
12 But don’t let sin control your life here on earth. You must not be ruled by the things your sinful self makes you want to do. 13 Don’t offer the parts of your body to serve sin. Don’t use your bodies to do evil, but offer yourselves to God, as people who have died and now live. Offer the parts of your body to God to be used for doing good. 14 Sin will not be your master, because you are not under law. You now live under God’s grace.

Slaves of Goodness​

15 So what should we do? Should we sin because we are under grace and not under law? Certainly not! 16 Surely you know that you become the slaves of whatever you give yourselves to. Anything or anyone you follow will be your master. You can follow sin, or you can obey God. Following sin brings spiritual death, but obeying God makes you right with him. 17 In the past you were slaves to sin—sin controlled you. But thank God, you fully obeyed what you were taught. 18 You were made free from sin, and now you are slaves to what is right. 19 I use this example from everyday life because you need help in understanding spiritual truths. In the past you offered the parts of your body to be slaves to your immoral and sinful thoughts. The result was that you lived only for sin. In the same way, you must now offer yourselves to be slaves to what is right. Then you will live only for God.
20 In the past you were slaves to sin, and you did not even think about doing right. 21 You did evil things, and now you are ashamed of what you did. Did those things help you? No, they only brought death. 22 But now you are free from sin. You have become slaves of God, and the result is that you live only for God. This will bring you eternal life. 23 When people sin, they earn what sin pays—death. But God gives his people a free gift—eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[The Learner]

It doesn’t make sense if you follow the teachings of Christendom’s church system.
Jesus’ death gives us the only basis for forgiveness, by cancelling out the debt left by Adam for all of his children. Without it, no forgiveness is possible. So in order to live the life we were meant to live, God must restore the lives that were lost because of Adam’s sin. (Romans 5:12)
The resurrection is what Jesus’ death provides for all who have died.…otherwise death would be the eternal penalty.

The very fact that there is a resurrection is the gift…..a chance to secure the life we should have had in the beginning. Since the Bible does not teach that we have an immortal soul that lives on somewhere else after the death of the body, Christ’s sacrifice makes the way for life to be restored when we die, and sins to be forgiven whilst we are still alive. That is what repentance does…..it facilitates forgiveness. Those who repented whilst they were still alive and died faithful are assured of “a resurrection to life”….those who died in ignorance are “resurrected to a period of judgment”, so that under the Kingdom’s rule, they can come to know God without interference from the devil and his minions.

None of us got an opportunity to ever try life under God’s rulership, but Christ’s death gives us all that opportunity. That is what God’s Kingdom is for….to restore all that we lost through no fault on our part.

Not everyone. The resurrection is for “the righteous and the unrighteous”, “those who did good things” and “those who did bad things” prior to their death. So, according to Jesus and Paul, the resurrection (which was lost when the church adopted belief in an immortal soul) is that second chance for unbelievers. (John 5:28-29; Acts 24:15)

A great many who have lived and died without knowledge of God and his Christ will get a chance to prove themselves worthy of citizenship in the kingdom…..those who lived a good life in Christ, have already proven worthy. They will be resurrected “to life”…but those who died in ignorance…the unfaithful or unrighteous, will be given another chance to prove themselves worthy. How is that not fair? Christendom already has them in hell! The penalty for sin is death…not eternal torment in a fiery hell.

So we have “the righteous and the unrighteous” resurrected at the same time, called from the same place, (John 5:28-29) but after the elect have been taken to heaven already. These the Bible says, are “resurrected first”. (Rev 20:6)

There is a third category of people however…..the “goats” who will not pass this judgment period that we are in right now. They are the ones who are mentioned by Paul…..in 1 Thess 1:5-10….

After commending the Thessalonians for their faithful endurance of persecution, he said….

”This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering.
For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.” (NASB)

Here we see that endurance means being “counted worthy of the Kingdom of God”. It is something we can qualify for, but never earn. When Jesus comes with his heavenly army to mete out justice…who are going to be on the receiving end of God’s wrath?
“those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus”

So the “goats” have had ample opportunity to hear and to respond to “the good news of the Kingdom” all through this “time of the end” when the preaching Jesus assigned to his disciples was to be declared in all the inhabited earth as a witness to all the nations” before God brings the curtain down on this whole horrible world of the devil’s making. ( Matt 24:14; 1 John 5:19)
Paul also makes a distinction between those who are “saints” and “those among all who have believed”….not all believers are “saints”.

So in a nutshell we have…
1) “the righteous” (who did good things) who are granted life…
2) “The unrighteous” (who did vile things) who will come under a period of judgment during the 1000 years reign of the Kingdom….
3) We have the “wicked” who have been given every opportunity to come to a knowledge of the truth…but these “do not know God” because they don’t want to…..and the second lot claim to know him but ‘disobey the teachings of the Christ‘ in favor of the teachings of a hopelessly divided church system.
But Jesus also consigned the Pharisees to “the judgment of Gehenna”….which is eternal death for those who are in incorrigibly wicked.….or who “sin against the holy spirit“ like Judas.
God has no place for them in his Kingdom because the penalty is “ETERNAL DESTRUCTION”…..That word means that no one gets a free pass.

It a big subject but so is the big picture, without which, nothing makes sense.

Romans 5

Easy-to-Read Version

​

Right With God​

5 We have been made right with God because of our faith. So we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Through our faith, Christ has brought us into that blessing of God’s grace that we now enjoy. And we are very happy because of the hope we have of sharing God’s glory. 3 And we are also happy with the troubles we have. Why are we happy with troubles? Because we know that these troubles make us more patient. 4 And this patience is proof that we are strong. And this proof gives us hope. 5 And this hope will never disappoint us. We know this because God has poured out his love to fill our hearts through the Holy Spirit he gave us.
6 Christ died for us when we were unable to help ourselves. We were living against God, but at just the right time Christ died for us. 7 Very few people will die to save the life of someone else, even if it is for a good person. Someone might be willing to die for an especially good person. 8 But Christ died for us while we were still sinners, and by this God showed how much he loves us.
9 We have been made right with God by the blood sacrifice of Christ. So through Christ we will surely be saved from God’s anger. 10 I mean that while we were God’s enemies, he made friends with us through his Son’s death. And the fact that we are now God’s friends makes it even more certain that he will save us through his Son’s life. 11 And not only will we be saved, but we also rejoice right now in what God has done for us through our Lord Jesus Christ. It is because of Jesus that we are now God’s friends.

Adam and Christ​

12 Sin came into the world because of what one man did. And with sin came death. So this is why all people must die—because all people have sinned. 13 Sin was in the world before the Law of Moses. But God does not consider people guilty of sin if there is no law. 14 But from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, everyone had to die. Adam died because he sinned by not obeying God’s command. But even those who did not sin that same way had to die.
That one man, Adam, can be compared to Christ, the one who was coming in the future. 15 But God’s free gift is not like Adam’s sin. Many people died because of the sin of that one man. But the grace that people received from God was much greater. Many received God’s gift of life by the grace of this other man, Jesus Christ. 16 After Adam sinned once, he was judged guilty. But the gift of God is different. His free gift came after many sins, and it makes people right with him. 17 One man sinned, and so death ruled all people because of that one man. But now some people accept God’s full grace and his great gift of being made right. Surely they will have true life and rule through the one man, Jesus Christ.
18 So that one sin of Adam brought the punishment of death to all people. But in the same way, Christ did something so good that it makes all people right with God. And that brings them true life. 19 One man disobeyed God and many became sinners. But in the same way, one man obeyed God and many will be made right. 20 The law was brought in so that more people would sin the way Adam did. But where sin increased, there was even more of God’s grace. 21 Sin once used death to rule us. But God gave us more of his grace so that grace could rule by making us right with him. And this brings us eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[The Learner]

start here Q for JW- KIEW?

 

[PS95]

I’m not nice but am good. Too bad you are annoyed. Perhaps you could try making a cogent point?

Seems to me you are striving toward a ‘gotcha’ angle. That’s not nice.

That's because you are still clueless. I dont play gotcha. that's what children play. i am dead serious about helping Keiw, and you are not helping. Perhaps it isnt important to you.

Would it be correct to say that you believe that when you die, your sins will be forgiven automatically because you died?

Aunty Jane----------No. There are three outcomes for those who have died…..two of them will have had their sins forgiven and one will not.

Now what's your excuse?

Like I said you dont know what you're talking about. Freudian slip on Jane's part or what? My JW sister said it about my JW dad when he died. Or did you miss that post too?!! But you know all things eh? Normally, it isnt the word they use.
That aint the point! I dont care what word is used. If you don't see a cogent point maybe you're as dim as the watchtower?
Whose death paid for YOUR sins, macho man? Will you even answer that?

 

[PS95]

start here Q for JW- KIEW?

thanks learner,
Honestly, it doesnt matter if he spoke mandarin and we gave it to him in mandarin. He will not read Romans 6 with me for context.
\Keiw refuses to believe that Romans 6 is speaking about a believers lives now as a new creature- born a new..
JWs do not believe that Jesus'death can pay for their sins. They believe that He died for Adamic sin only. And that Ro 6 means that when they die PHYSICALLY that they paid their own sin debt and are (aquitted- forgiven- freed- ) whatever their word is of the day... will get a 2nd chance to prove themselves worthy.
Instead of understanding that Jesus did pay for Keiw's sins too- he will fight me since the watchtower doesnt teach what the bible says.
Was that clear enough?

 

[Jack]

Faithful witness? Have you understood this thread? Witness of whom?
They deny Jesus' sacrifice for themselves and us. They replace him with their own dead bodies.
They believe that Christians are all antichrists.
You serious?

BINGO!

 

[Jack]

Matt 7:21-23= Jesus' words--Get away from me you who work iniquity( practice a sin( or willfull sin)i must confess i never even knew you= judgement scenario.

God teaches forgiveness--Jesus said 77 times if needed. We all make mistakes please forgive her.

Mistakes? You call our Bibles errors and Satanic. Aunty called Jesus' teachings on Hell Satanic! You call those 'mistakes'? I think 'doctrines of demons' would be much more accurate.

 

[PS95]

start here Q for JW- KIEW?

that's page 1 but not the first post which is where start is. scroll to top.
(not hellfire posts) sigh

 

[Wrangler]

That's because you are still clueless.

Projecting. It is you who cannot construct a coherent thesis, embrace an exchange of ideas (like acquitted) or recognize your own errors.

i am dead serious about helping Keiw, and you are not helping.

Is that what you are doing; "helping" Keiw?

This goes to prove what I long observed; People use questions as a form or attack, not to humbly learn.

I dont play gotcha. that's what children play.

Gaslighting. You are playing gotcha games. To wit:

Normally, it isnt the word they use.
That aint the point! I dont care what word is used.

You don't care what word they use OR what answer they give. You just keep attacking by pretending they have not answered when they have.

Would it be correct to say that you believe that when you die, your sins will be forgiven automatically because you died?

Aunty Jane----------No.

Now what's your excuse?

She answered your question; no. What is YOUR excuse?

You just don't like being called out for your "question" in "helping" Keiw. After 390 posts you cannot accept your "question" has been answered - by @Keiw, @Aunty Jane, me and perhaps others.

 

[Wrangler]

But you know all things eh?

JWs do not believe that Jesus'death can pay for their sins. They believe that He died for Adamic sin only. And when they die PHYSICALLy that they paid their own sin debt and will get a 2nd chance to prove themselves worthy.
He refuses to believe that Romans 6 is speaking about a beleivers lives now as a new creature- born a new..

Seems you are the one who knows all things. Again, using questions as a form of attack to "help" Keiw.

 

[Keiw]

Mistakes? You call our Bibles errors and Satanic. Aunty called Jesus' teachings on Hell Satanic! You call those 'mistakes'? I think 'doctrines of demons' would be much more accurate.

Any who know God and that he is love know 100% there is no literal eternal suffering. The darkness teaches it as literal.
I shared this fact with you, but you throw truth away to appease the darkness--A teaching on eternal suffering= Mark 9:48)The place where the worm( maggot) dieth not)))--Fact= no worm or maggot can survive a single hour in a hot firey place let alone dieth not. So you can get out of the darkness and come to the light and get to know the true God=YHVH(Jehovah) not a sadist as your religion teaches in their lack of understanding, but a God of LOVE.

 

[Keiw]

that's page 1 but not the first post which is where start is. scroll to top.
(not hellfire posts) sigh

I know you think you can help me, I appreciate your thoughts of me in that way, but really, i know 100%= 0 doubt in all creation Jesus is with the JW,s. And its not i who need the help.

 

[PS95]

She answered your question; no. What is YOUR excuse?

No she didnt. READ the rest of it below. You are being deceitful.

Aunty Jane----------No. There are three outcomes for those who have died…..two of them will have had their sins forgiven and one will not.

I'm sick of you frankly, and this my last post to you. Everytime you open your mouth on these forums it is to attack another. You are a sick individual.
I'm only posting this, so people can see how you cut off what Jane wrote.
You still think this is about words and THAT SHOWS that you are still clueless.
You can't even testify that Jesus death covers your sins!
I have NOTHING to say to you.
But people like you dont ever quit-- so post away wrangler.............. show everyone how messed up you are. lol

 

[PS95]

I know you think you can help me, I appreciate your thoughts of me in that way, but really, i know 100%= 0 doubt in all creation Jesus is with the JW,s. And its not i who need the help.

and I appreciate you too, Keiw. Maybe that's where we should go from here. I think I understand why you think that way. (Jesus is with Jws) and that's because you feel that He pointed to His Father as our God and I agree with you. Of course he did!! but the question can come over from the other thread I guess..
Dont you believe that Christians who are not Jws can know Jesus?
Can you try to understand it this way? Note the bold. Have you ever thought about that?
1 John 2:23

Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son. 23 No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

24 As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is what he promised us—eternal life.

26 I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray.

​

 

[Wrangler]

I'm sick of you frankly

ROFLMAO!

This is your answer to simple questions and the same snakiness you give? You are a riot.

you cut off what Jane wrote.

Only to show you that she answered your question. The answer is no.

Obviously, you ask questions but lack the humility to accept the answers given.

this my last post to you.

Miracles happen everyday.

 

[Keiw]

and I appreciate you too, Keiw. Maybe that's where we should go from here. I think I understand why you think that way. (Jesus is with Jws) and that's because you feel that He pointed to His Father as our God and I agree with you. Of course he did!! but the question can come over from the other thread I guess..
Dont you believe that Christians who are not Jws can know Jesus?
Can you try to understand it this way? Note the bold. Have you ever thought about that?
1 John 2:23

Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son. 23 No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

24 As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is what he promised us—eternal life.

26 I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray.

​

All religions claiming to be christian acknowledge Jesus--The wise go to Jesus,(John 14:6)( and he then sends the righteous who obey him to his Father to do this daily-24/7-365=John 4:22-24, because they obeyed Jesus and do this 24/7-365=Matt 6:33-Keep on seeking-FIRST- the kingdom and his(YHVH(Jehovah) righteousness and all these things will be added( sustenance, covering, spirituality)--The ones who fail to do Matt 6:33 do not get sent to the Father. That is where all those religions are failing their flocks. They teach to seek Jesus' righteousness first and do not obey Jesus.

 

[PS95]

All religions claiming to be christian acknowledge Jesus--The wise go to Jesus,(John 14:6)( and he then sends the righteous who obey him to his Father to do this daily-24/7-365=John 4:22-24, because they obeyed Jesus and do this 24/7-365=Matt 6:33-Keep on seeking-FIRST- the kingdom and his(YHVH(Jehovah) righteousness and all these things will be added( sustenance, covering, spirituality)--The ones who fail to do Matt 6:33 do not get sent to the Father. That is where all those religions are failing their flocks. They teach to seek Jesus' righteousness first and do not obey Jesus.

I understand that's how you see it. Jesus taught that we can't go to Him unless the Father calls us to Him. Jo 6:65
So, why does the Father send us to Jesus?
So He can send us back to the father? Like a circle?

 

[PS95]

I know you think you can help me, I appreciate your thoughts of me in that way, but really, i know 100%= 0 doubt in all creation Jesus is with the JW,s. And its not i who need the help.

Back to this- great huh?
Do you still think that all of that below is speaking of when we die physically? Ro 6:3-8, 11-14--

when we are baptized were baptized in to His death? Crucified with Him?
Buried with Christ? Raised with him in newness of life? No longer slaves to sin?
Slaves to righteousness? Freed from sin? Died with Christ?
Dead to sin? Alive to God in Christ?
Sin is not our master? Dont let sin reign in mortal body? Alive from the dead? Not under law but grace?

Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin for he who has died is freed from sin. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, ....... Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

 

[Keiw]

I understand that's how you see it. Jesus taught that we can't go to Him unless the Father calls us to Him. Jo 6:65
So, why does the Father send us to Jesus?
So He can send us back to the father? Like a circle?

Because God wants all to obey Jesus, thus sends ones to him first. Jesus only commands us what his Father tells him to say.