Q for JW- KIEW?

[PS95]

Hi Kiew, you've stated this a couple of times now on another thread--

"Romans 6:7-Acquitted of all sin at death. The judgement God gave to all men=The wages of sin = death. Once dead have paid in full the wages of sin. Gods pure justice could not rejudge one on past sins once they died and paid those wages."

Would it be correct to say that you believe that when you die, your sins will be forgiven automatically because you died?
You will pay for your sin debt at death? Does your death pay for all of your sins?
I am confused.
Will you please elaborate further on this Jw teaching for me? I have heard it before from a Jw, but it doesn't make sense to me.
Thanks for your time in advance.

 

[PS95]

bump for Kiew

 

[Aunty Jane]

Hi Kiew, you've stated this a couple of times now on another thread--

Perhaps I can help here….timezones being what they are….

Would it be correct to say that you believe that when you die, your sins will be forgiven automatically because you died?

No. There are three outcomes for those who have died…..two of them will have had their sins forgiven and one will not.
This of course has to do with the resurrection.…and the difference between “hades” and “Gehenna”.
Those raised back to life have already paid for their sins with the death penalty. There is no penalty under God’s law that was greater than death. Christ’s sacrifice grants them a second chance after their resurrection as both the good and bad are called from their graves….All are in one place, since death is the cessation of life. (Eccl 9:5, 10; John 5:28-29) It is not a continuation of it somewhere else. Life and death are opposites….not rocket science.
There is no such thing as an immortal soul….(Ezek 18:4) All souls are mortal.

There are two kinds of resurrection…one for the “chosen ones” (elect) who are resurrected “first”, and one for those over whom the first ones will act as “kings and priests” in the heavenly Kingdom. (Rev 20:6; John 5:28-29) Not all Christians are heaven bound…only those chosen by God will have that privilege.
The majority of the human race will reside on earth, where God put us in the first place. (Rev 21:2-4)

You will pay for your sin debt at death? Does your death pay for all of your sins?
I am confused.

What is confusing? “The wages of sin is death”….at death we are “acquitted of sin”…..an acquittal is a dismissing of all charges. No sin committed in our past is beyond God’s power to forgive….but God also knows who has been consigned to “Gehenna”….rather than “hades”.……”Gehenna” is the place reserved for satan and his rebel angels….it is also the place where the “goats” will end up. (Matt 25:31-34; 41, 46)
Jesus also told the Pharisees that they would not escape “the judgment of Gehenna” (Matt 23:33)….Because this word has been erroneously translated as “hell”, many people imagine God gleefully watching whilst these souls are tortured in a fire for all eternity…..Jesus never served such a heinous god.

Will you please elaborate further on this Jw teaching for me? I have heard it before from a Jw, but it doesn't make sense to me.

If you subscribe to Christendom’s version of “hell”…..you never will make sense of anything.

Was death supposed to happen? Was there a natural cause of death that was mentioned to Adam?
If the first humans had never sinned, would they have ever died? What does the Bible say? (Gen 3:22-24)

“Death is the wages of sin”….so no sin would have meant no death….no flitting off to heaven….no salvation by Christ required, and if the woman had simply obeyed that one small command, the devil would have been dispatched and we would never have known what an evil thing was…..
God‘s first purpose for humankind was to live forever on earth in paradise…..that never went away (Isa 55:11)….but you knew that…right?

 

[Wrangler]

Would it be correct to say that you believe that when you die, your sins will be forgiven automatically because you died?

I really don't know how you come to that based on the verse. A debt paid is not the same as a debt forgiven.

I believe God has inhuman compassion. He knows the debt we have and wants us to repent. He's done his part.

 

[PS95]

I really don't know how you come to that based on the verse. A debt paid is not the same as a debt forgiven.

I believe God has inhuman compassion. He knows the debt we have and wants us to repent. He's done his part.

Hi Wrangler,
LOL -That is not my conclusion. I was asking Kiew a question based on what they teach. Read to see how they answer.

 

[PS95]

One is acquitted of all sin at death. All those get resurrected and given a 2nd chance in Gods kingdom on earth. The world was warned-2Thess 2:3= the great apostasy( son of peredition) would stand up in place of Jesus religion.= The religion that came out of Rome and her hundreds of branches serving a non existent trinity god created at the councils of Catholicism.

This is what Kiew extracts from Romans 6

What is confusing? “The wages of sin is death”….at death we are “acquitted of sin”…..an acquittal is a dismissing of all charges. No sin committed in our past is beyond God’s power to forgive….

It appears that Jane also extracts a forgiveness of sins by dying also. She asked why I am confused proceeding with proof texts quoting Romans 6:7 and then 6:23.

Below are 2 quotes from the Watchtower magazines that back up these JWs that their very death pays their sin debt.

The Watchtower 11/15/95 page 19
Must those resurrected during Jesus' Thousand Year Reign enter the antitypical city of refuge and remain there until the death of the high priest?
No, because by dying the paid the penalty for their sinfulness. (Romans 6:7; Heb 9:27) Nevertheless, the High Priest will help them to reach perfection. If they successfully pass the final test after the Millennium, God will also declare them righteous with a guarantee of eternal life on earth.

The Watchtower 5/15/73 page 312
What of those, then. who will be resurrected during Jesus' thousand year reign? Must these, too, come within the city of refuge and remain there until the "death of the high priest"? No, for these have paid the penalty for their sinfulness by their own death. (Rom 6:7) They have been aquitted of sin by going down into the common grave of all mankind. On coming forth from death they are now standing on a road that leads, not into the anti-typical city of refuge, but into everlasting life.

What prompted this question for me was a conversation I had with a 30 yr. JW after the funeral of a JW that we both loved. Our dad.

JW- His sins are all forgiven now. The word, now, was stressed so I was prompted to ask..
ME- What do you mean exactly by "now"?
JW- Because he died, his death paid for his sins.
ME- huh? You mean Jesus died for his sins?
JW- No! Jesus died for Adam's sin, not ours.
ME- Wait.. what? Your death doesnt pay for your sins!! We all die.
JW- Of course it does. It's in Romans 6. He who has died is freed from sins. Thats was Adam's punishment.
ME- Romans 6? That doesnt mean that! Jesus is the only one who could pay for our sins!


My heart absolutely BROKE. WHAT?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Cassandra]

Hi Kiew, you've stated this a couple of times now on another thread--

Would it be correct to say that you believe that when you die, your sins will be forgiven automatically because you died?
You will pay for your sin debt at death? Does your death pay for all of your sins?
I am confused.
Will you please elaborate further on this Jw teaching for me? I have heard it before from a Jw, but it doesn't make sense to me.
Thanks for your time in advance.

It really doesn't make sense does it? If it were true, there would've been no need for Jesus to die. So everyone who dies is forgiven? This is a JW teaching?

 

[Keiw]

This is what Kiew extracts from Romans 6

It appears that Jane also extracts a forgiveness of sins by dying also. She asked why I am confused proceeding with proof texts quoting Romans 6:7 and then 6:23.

Below are 2 quotes from the Watchtower magazines that back up these JWs that their very death pays their sin debt.

The Watchtower 11/15/95 page 19
Must those resurrected during Jesus' Thousand Year Reign enter the antitypical city of refuge and remain there until the death of the high priest?
No, because by dying the paid the penalty for their sinfulness. (Romans 6:7; Heb 9:27) Nevertheless, the High Priest will help them to reach perfection. If they successfully pass the final test after the Millennium, God will also declare them righteous with a guarantee of eternal life on earth.

The Watchtower 5/15/73 page 312
What of those, then. who will be resurrected during Jesus' thousand year reign? Must these, too, come within the city of refuge and remain there until the "death of the high priest"? No, for these have paid the penalty for their sinfulness by their own death. (Rom 6:7) They have been aquitted of sin by going down into the common grave of all mankind. On coming forth from death they are now standing on a road that leads, not into the anti-typical city of refuge, but into everlasting life.

What prompted this question for me was a conversation I had with a 30 yr. JW after the funeral of a JW that we both loved. Our dad.

JW- His sins are all forgiven now. The word, now, was stressed so I was prompted to ask..
ME- What do you mean exactly by "now"?
JW- Because he died, his death paid for his sins.
ME- huh? You mean Jesus died for his sins?
JW- No! Jesus died for Adam's sin, not ours.
ME- Wait.. what? Your death doesnt pay for your sins!! We all die.
JW- Of course it does. It's in Romans 6. He who has died is freed from sins. Thats was Adam's punishment.
ME- Romans 6? That doesnt mean that! Jesus is the only one who could pay for our sins!


My heart absolutely BROKE. WHAT?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Its 100% fact=Gods already passed judgement on sin= death. His justice is perfect thus could never rejudge one on what he was already judged on.=The wages of sin= death.
Repent and turn around to get sin blotted out( Acts 3:19)--I don't see where that says Jesus' death covers over sins. Jesus' death covers repented sin when one turns around. Heb 10:26= No sacrifice left for any who practice( or willfull) sin.=Thus Jesus death does not cover those sins as Jesus himself assures all at Matt 7:21-23= No matter what they do for Jesus out of love for Jesus, if they work iniquity=Practice a sin or willfull sin, they will hear these words as judgement= Get away from me you who work iniquity, i must confess i never even knew you. This is bible reality.

 

[PS95]

Kiew and Jane,
I would like to start with Romans 1 to understand these verses in context with my JW friends. Feel free of course to check me with your NWT bible. Please pray for understanding and read along with me verse by verse? This is a letter and needs to be read as such, agree? I am not adding my own commentary in between verses 1-10. We are just reading the scriptures, ok? I am not trying to trick anyone.

Romans 6:1-2
1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
2May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?

3Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?

4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

5For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,

6knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;

7 for he who has died is freed from sin. 8Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,

9knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
10Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

I think that's enough to show the proper context, so JWs can see that Paul is not speaking about our physical deaths at all, but he is referring to our death to sin and rebirth to life in this present time!!!!

As you continue reading the chapter to the end you will come to verses 22- 23. Read slowly.

22But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.

23For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.


Verse 23 in context says death is the punishment for sin. Yes it is.. it is eternal death. Sin wage = death. It is what you've earned. It is not you paying God. It is God paying you your wages ( what you have earned) for sin. Do you see?!!!!!

Happily, Paul's sentence continues.. That Death WAGE for the sinner is being contrasted with the FREE GIFT of God of eternal life only found in Christ.
There are two opposing absolutes there. Do you see them?

SIN-- brings punishment, your wage, what you have earned, your pay =DEATH.
VS.
ETERNAL LIFE (*everlasting, let's not split hairs) -- Is not a wage. See the change? It's a what? A free gift. You can't earn it. It's not what you deserve or earned. YOU dont deserve this GIFT. It's a FREE GIFT. See Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace are you saved through faith, this is not of yourselves, it is a” – What? – “gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast.”
There is only ONE WAY for all anyone to have their sins forgiven. God has sent His ONLY SON, JESUS to pay for our sins. HE IS THE ONLY WAY.

Just so that nobody gets confused, it is a free gift.
So, if you want what you deserve, God will give it to you. But if you want what you don’t deserve, God will give that to you as well! There is NO OTHER WAY. ONLY by the BLOOD OF JESUS! There is NO OTHER WAY. HE is the WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE.

Please read this over and over until you truly understand. Take your good ole time. Over and over and over... then believe God!I know it is upsetting to think that the watchtower is wrong in telling you that you can pay for your own sins. BUT we have to believe God, not man. Jehovah requires a spotless, blameless lamb! <----- That's not you or me!!
That's JESUS!

I know you will have many questions once you grasp this. It's normal! There are answers!
If anyone reads this- please help me in prayers for KIEW and JANE for understanding!

Kiew, I just saw your last post. I will come back later with many verses to prove to you that Jesus DID DIE For YOUR sins! Without Him, all there is, is your pay, DEATH.

 

[PS95]

Its 100% fact=Gods already passed judgement on sin= death. His justice is perfect thus could never rejudge one on what he was already judged on.=The wages of sin= death.
Repent and turn around to get sin blotted out( Acts 3:19)--I don't see where that says Jesus' death covers over sins. Jesus' death covers repented sin when one turns around. Heb 10:26= No sacrifice left for any who practice( or willfull) sin.=Thus Jesus death does not cover those sins as Jesus himself assures all at Matt 7:21-23= No matter what they do for Jesus out of love for Jesus, if they work iniquity=Practice a sin or willfull sin, they will hear these words as judgement= Get away from me you who work iniquity, i must confess i never even knew you. This is bible reality.

Hi Kiew!
We can go thru all of that once you understand Romans 6 properly, ok? see post above this one.

 

[Keiw]

Hi Kiew!
We can go thru all of that once you understand Romans 6 properly, ok? see post above this one.

I understand grace-Only the righteous will get it. Ones who practice sin or willfully sin are wicked in Gods view and will not get grace.

 

[PS95]

I understand grace-Only the righteous will get it. Ones who practice sin or willfully sin are wicked in Gods view and will not get grace.

I'm glad you see grace. If we are sinners ( and we all are) how do we become righteous in the first place? by our works?
Do you see that Romans 6:7 does not teach that your death can pay for your sins yet? If not, please re-read the post where I went through it verse by verse, ok? Otherwise, you will remain confused as to what it means.

 

[RLT63]

Perhaps I can help here….timezones being what they are….

No. There are three outcomes for those who have died…..two of them will have had their sins forgiven and one will not.
This of course has to do with the resurrection.…and the difference between “hades” and “Gehenna”.
Those raised back to life have already paid for their sins with the death penalty. There is no penalty under God’s law that was greater than death. Christ’s sacrifice grants them a second chance after their resurrection as both the good and bad are called from their graves….All are in one place, since death is the cessation of life. (Eccl 9:5, 10; John 5:28-29) It is not a continuation of it somewhere else. Life and death are opposites….not rocket science.
There is no such thing as an immortal soul….(Ezek 18:4) All souls are mortal.

There are two kinds of resurrection…one for the “chosen ones” (elect) who are resurrected “first”, and one for those over whom the first ones will act as “kings and priests” in the heavenly Kingdom. (Rev 20:6; John 5:28-29) Not all Christians are heaven bound…only those chosen by God will have that privilege.
The majority of the human race will reside on earth, where God put us in the first place. (Rev 21:2-4)


What is confusing? “The wages of sin is death”….at death we are “acquitted of sin”…..an acquittal is a dismissing of all charges. No sin committed in our past is beyond God’s power to forgive….but God also knows who has been consigned to “Gehenna”….rather than “hades”.……”Gehenna” is the place reserved for satan and his rebel angels….it is also the place where the “goats” will end up. (Matt 25:31-34; 41, 46)
Jesus also told the Pharisees that they would not escape “the judgment of Gehenna” (Matt 23:33)….Because this word has been erroneously translated as “hell”, many people imagine God gleefully watching whilst these souls are tortured in a fire for all eternity…..Jesus never served such a heinous god.

If you subscribe to Christendom’s version of “hell”…..you never will make sense of anything.

Was death supposed to happen? Was there a natural cause of death that was mentioned to Adam?
If the first humans had never sinned, would they have ever died? What does the Bible say? (Gen 3:22-24)

“Death is the wages of sin”….so no sin would have meant no death….no flitting off to heaven….no salvation by Christ required, and if the woman had simply obeyed that one small command, the devil would have been dispatched and we would never have known what an evil thing was…..
God‘s first purpose for humankind was to live forever on earth in paradise…..that never went away (Isa 55:11)….but you knew that…right?

Explain how this fits in, Mat 10:28 - And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul:but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

[PS95]

Explain how this fits in, Mat 10:28 - And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul:but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Hi RLT,

I'm happy to have you post! I want so badly for these JWs to see that Romans 6 is not about our physical death.

Jane brought up hell and I purposefully did not address it because they don't believe in punishment after death. That's a whole other topic. I want to keep them on topic of Romans 6:7 ,23. It's very serious. Jesus was spotless, blameless in death, and it's is utterly ignored that is what God requires! They are literally trying to SUBSTITUTE for Jesus . Do you see this? I don't think they see it!

Can you imagine thinking that we die to pay for our own sins? Jesus only died for Adam's original sin according to them, and Adam will not be resurrected. So, Jesus did not die for him either, but for original sin. They say, Jesus does not cover our personal sins. We have to die to pay for those. They think that the wages of sin is death means that we are paying our sin debt to God. They don't understand that a wage is something you have earned, a wage, your punishment,-- not us paying God, but him paying us what we deserve!

They don't even address the rest of the sentence of verse 23. They say they understand grace, and yet they are so far off that it's horrifying.
I want them to be free. I have many family members that are JWs. They don't speak to me. I was never baptized as a Jw but I have been shunned for as long as I can recall.
Aunty Jane has told me that she didn't have bible knowledge when she had "bible" studies with Jws 50+ yrs ago. Bible is in quotes because it is actually Watchtower book study with the bible along side. Verses are cherry-picked and woven into their own doctrines. You don't realize that is what is happening at the time. It happened to me too!
People that don't know their bible are especially at risk with Jws. So, I have sympathy for them. I hate what they teach, but I don't hate them. They are victims- angry, self-righteous, rude, know it alls too.. yes lol but still naked and in need of Christ.
Help me keep them on topic, please?

 

[TLHKAJ]

Romans 3:23
[23]For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Acts 15:10-11
[10]Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
[11]But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

 

[Aunty Jane]

It really doesn't make sense does it? If it were true, there would've been no need for Jesus to die.

It doesn’t make sense if you follow the teachings of Christendom’s church system.
Jesus’ death gives us the only basis for forgiveness, by cancelling out the debt left by Adam for all of his children. Without it, no forgiveness is possible. So in order to live the life we were meant to live, God must restore the lives that were lost because of Adam’s sin. (Romans 5:12)
The resurrection is what Jesus’ death provides for all who have died.…otherwise death would be the eternal penalty.

The very fact that there is a resurrection is the gift…..a chance to secure the life we should have had in the beginning. Since the Bible does not teach that we have an immortal soul that lives on somewhere else after the death of the body, Christ’s sacrifice makes the way for life to be restored when we die, and sins to be forgiven whilst we are still alive. That is what repentance does…..it facilitates forgiveness. Those who repented whilst they were still alive and died faithful are assured of “a resurrection to life”….those who died in ignorance are “resurrected to a period of judgment”, so that under the Kingdom’s rule, they can come to know God without interference from the devil and his minions.

None of us got an opportunity to ever try life under God’s rulership, but Christ’s death gives us all that opportunity. That is what God’s Kingdom is for….to restore all that we lost through no fault on our part.

So everyone who dies is forgiven? This is a JW teaching?

Not everyone. The resurrection is for “the righteous and the unrighteous”, “those who did good things” and “those who did bad things” prior to their death. So, according to Jesus and Paul, the resurrection (which was lost when the church adopted belief in an immortal soul) is that second chance for unbelievers. (John 5:28-29; Acts 24:15)

A great many who have lived and died without knowledge of God and his Christ will get a chance to prove themselves worthy of citizenship in the kingdom…..those who lived a good life in Christ, have already proven worthy. They will be resurrected “to life”…but those who died in ignorance…the unfaithful or unrighteous, will be given another chance to prove themselves worthy. How is that not fair? Christendom already has them in hell! The penalty for sin is death…not eternal torment in a fiery hell.

So we have “the righteous and the unrighteous” resurrected at the same time, called from the same place, (John 5:28-29) but after the elect have been taken to heaven already. These the Bible says, are “resurrected first”. (Rev 20:6)

There is a third category of people however…..the “goats” who will not pass this judgment period that we are in right now. They are the ones who are mentioned by Paul…..in 1 Thess 1:5-10….

After commending the Thessalonians for their faithful endurance of persecution, he said….

”This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering.
For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.” (NASB)

Here we see that endurance means being “counted worthy of the Kingdom of God”. It is something we can qualify for, but never earn. When Jesus comes with his heavenly army to mete out justice…who are going to be on the receiving end of God’s wrath?
“those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus”

So the “goats” have had ample opportunity to hear and to respond to “the good news of the Kingdom” all through this “time of the end” when the preaching Jesus assigned to his disciples was to be declared in all the inhabited earth as a witness to all the nations” before God brings the curtain down on this whole horrible world of the devil’s making. ( Matt 24:14; 1 John 5:19)
Paul also makes a distinction between those who are “saints” and “those among all who have believed”….not all believers are “saints”.

So in a nutshell we have…
1) “the righteous” (who did good things) who are granted life…
2) “The unrighteous” (who did vile things) who will come under a period of judgment during the 1000 years reign of the Kingdom….
3) We have the “wicked” who have been given every opportunity to come to a knowledge of the truth…but these “do not know God” because they don’t want to…..and the second lot claim to know him but ‘disobey the teachings of the Christ‘ in favor of the teachings of a hopelessly divided church system.
But Jesus also consigned the Pharisees to “the judgment of Gehenna”….which is eternal death for those who are in incorrigibly wicked.….or who “sin against the holy spirit“ like Judas.
God has no place for them in his Kingdom because the penalty is “ETERNAL DESTRUCTION”…..That word means that no one gets a free pass.

It a big subject but so is the big picture, without which, nothing makes sense.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Explain how this fits in, Mat 10:28 - And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul:but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

First of all…..what is Jesus really saying here…?
What is the “hell” where Jesus says “body and soul are DESTROYED”?

The explanation is in the fact that there is no immortal soul. The soul is ”destroyed” along with the body because a soul is a living breathing creature…not a disembodied spirit.

All humans can do to us is kill the body, but in the resurrection God restores the soul, or life of the person.
Adam was not given a soul but “became” a soul when God started him breathing.

When Adam died he stopped breathing and his body returned to the dust from which he was created. No afterlife of any description was offered to him because he did not inherit sin….he committed it of his own free will, sentencing all of his offspring to death. (Rom 5:12)

Gehenna is not hell….it is a symbol of eternal death, which is the opposite of eternal life.
Jesus was sent from heaven to pay a ransom for mankind. His death cancelled the debt that Adam passed on to his children. That is why it is called redemption. The price was set….”an eye for an eye a tooth for a tooth and a life for a life”…that was God’s perfect law. The death of one sinless man cancelled the death of another formerly sinless man who abused his free will and threw all of us under the bus.

“Gehenna” to a Jew meant no resurrection….it never meant eternal torment, but eternal death.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Hi RLT,

I'm happy to have you post! I want so badly for these JWs to see that Romans 6 is not about our physical death.

Jane brought up hell and I purposefully did not address it because they don't believe in punishment after death. That's a whole other topic. I want to keep them on topic of Romans 6:7 ,23. It's very serious. Jesus was spotless, blameless in death, and it's is utterly ignored that is what God requires! They are literally trying to SUBSTITUTE for Jesus . Do you see this? I don't think they see it!

Can you imagine thinking that we die to pay for our own sins? Jesus only died for Adam's original sin according to them, and Adam will not be resurrected. So, Jesus did not die for him either, but for original sin. They say, Jesus does not cover our personal sins. We have to die to pay for those. They think that the wages of sin is death means that we are paying our sin debt to God. They don't understand that a wage is something you have earned, a wage, your punishment,-- not us paying God, but him paying us what we deserve!

They don't even address the rest of the sentence of verse 23. They say they understand grace, and yet they are so far off that it's horrifying.
I want them to be free. I have many family members that are JWs. They don't speak to me. I was never baptized as a Jw but I have been shunned for as long as I can recall.
Aunty Jane has told me that she didn't have bible knowledge when she had "bible" studies with Jws 50+ yrs ago. Bible is in quotes because it is actually Watchtower book study with the bible along side. Verses are cherry-picked and woven into their own doctrines. You don't realize that is what is happening at the time. It happened to me too!
People that don't know their bible are especially at risk with Jws. So, I have sympathy for them. I hate what they teach, but I don't hate them. They are victims- angry, self-righteous, rude, know it alls too.. yes lol but still naked and in need of Christ.
Help me keep them on topic, please?

I knew this was a personal vendetta…save your boo boos for yourself.

God didn’t “draw” you to his truth, but he drew your family….tells me a lot….(John 6:44; 65)
You speak like an apostate…..so I will join your family and have no further dialogue with you….
Your motives are very obvious despite your very thin veneer of phony sincerity…..

 

[Cassandra]

but those who died in ignorance…the unfaithful or unrighteous, will be given another chance to prove themselves worthy.

Think I got what you say to here. This quote above , however, I disagree with. Since God looketh upon the heart, I believe these are already judged. "once to die, and then the judgement."

 

[RLT63]

First of all…..what is Jesus really saying here…?
What is the “hell” where Jesus says “body and soul are DESTROYED”?

The explanation is in the fact that there is no immortal soul. The soul is ”destroyed” along with the body because a soul is a living breathing creature…not a disembodied spirit.

All humans can do to us is kill the body, but in the resurrection God restores the soul, or life of the person.
Adam was not given a soul but “became” a soul when God started him breathing.

When Adam died he stopped breathing and his body returned to the dust from which he was created. No afterlife of any description was offered to him because he did not inherit sin….he committed it of his own free will, sentencing all of his offspring to death. (Rom 5:12)

Gehenna is not hell….it is a symbol of eternal death, which is the opposite of eternal life.
Jesus was sent from heaven to pay a ransom for mankind. His death cancelled the debt that Adam passed on to his children. That is why it is called redemption. The price was set….”an eye for an eye a tooth for a tooth and a life for a life”…that was God’s perfect law. The death of one sinless man cancelled the death of another formerly sinless man who abused his free will and threw all of us under the bus.

“Gehenna” to a Jew meant no resurrection….it never meant eternal torment, but eternal death.

That doesn’t explain that verse. It contradicts your whole premise