Proof: You were only forgiven of your past sins!

[GodsGrace]

Then why say anything?

I'm a chatterbox.
I say what I know...
But then I stop.

Some just keep on talking....

 

[CoreIssue]

Oh, I agree that they're real.
But what's The Pit?
Agreed...Paradise is empty.

A large and deep hole in the ground with a locked lid.

Revelation 9:1-12 New International Version (NIV)
9 The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss. 2 When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss. 3 And out of the smoke locusts came down on the earth and were given power like that of scorpions of the earth. 4 They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5 They were not allowed to kill them but only to torture them for five months. And the agony they suffered was like that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes. 6 During those days people will seek death but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will elude them.

7 The locusts looked like horses prepared for battle. On their heads they wore something like crowns of gold, and their faces resembled human faces. 8 Their hair was like women’s hair, and their teeth were like lions’ teeth. 9 They had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the thundering of many horses and chariots rushing into battle. 10 They had tails with stingers, like scorpions, and in their tails they had power to torment people for five months. 11 They had as king over them the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon and in Greek is Apollyon (that is, Destroyer).

Revelation 11:7-8 New International Version (NIV)
7 Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them. 8 Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified.

Jude
6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.

 

[GodsGrace]

A large and deep hole in the ground with a locked lid.

Revelation 9:1-12 New International Version (NIV)
9 The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss. 2 When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss. 3 And out of the smoke locusts came down on the earth and were given power like that of scorpions of the earth. 4 They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5 They were not allowed to kill them but only to torture them for five months. And the agony they suffered was like that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes. 6 During those days people will seek death but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will elude them.

7 The locusts looked like horses prepared for battle. On their heads they wore something like crowns of gold, and their faces resembled human faces. 8 Their hair was like women’s hair, and their teeth were like lions’ teeth. 9 They had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the thundering of many horses and chariots rushing into battle. 10 They had tails with stingers, like scorpions, and in their tails they had power to torment people for five months. 11 They had as king over them the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon and in Greek is Apollyon (that is, Destroyer).

Revelation 11:7-8 New International Version (NIV)
7 Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them. 8 Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified.

Jude
6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling—these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.

I read Jude, but I have an aversion to Revelation -- I did skim through it.
I just don't get it. I've tried.

But OK,,,The Pit.
Gotcha.

 

[Jun2u]

Hell is off of The Pit and is very real.

Paradise is also off the Pit, but empty.

According to Revelation 2:7 Paradise is in the midst of God which is in heaven

There are at least two people I know who are in paradise, Lazarus of luke 18 and the thief of Luke 23.
Don't anybody study Scripture any longer?

To God Be The Glory

 

[GodsGrace]

According to Revelation 2:7 Paradise is in the midst of God which is in heaven

There are at least two people I know who are in paradise, Lazarus of luke 18 and the thief of Luke 23.
Don't anybody study Scripture any longer?

To God Be The Glory

Paradise is empty J.
Now there is only heaven or hell.
Read Mathew 27:51

 

[Helen]

Well, in that case the whole Bible is *crazy*. Evidently you have failed to study the doctrine of Heaven from Scripture. So this should be your next assignment.:)

But that which is spiritual is spiritual and that which is literal is literal..
You can't travel enough miles to finally land at a spiritual place!!!!!

There is ONE Door, and that is Jesus Christ.
You need to go and talk to Father...but don't do all the talking...try some listening... :)

Bless you...Helen

 

[CoreIssue]

According to Revelation 2:7 Paradise is in the midst of God which is in heaven

There are at least two people I know who are in paradise, Lazarus of luke 18 and the thief of Luke 23.
Don't anybody study Scripture any longer?

To God Be The Glory

If you had actually studied the Bible you would know there are two places referred to as paradise in the Bible. One is also called Abraham's bosom and is in the earth. The other is heaven.

Lazarus was OT. At death OT saints went to paradise, not heaven. None entered heaven until Christ led them there in train at his resurrection.

Same with the thief.

 

[Enoch111]

I beg to differ. Have you studied Revelation 20:10 through to Revelation 21:1

Absolutely and in depth.

If you have then let us hear how you understand these verses.

HELL: CREATED FOR THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. [Note: There are three Greek words translated as "hell" in the KJB -- Gehenna (the Lake of Fire), Sheol/Hades (in the lower parts of the earth), and Tartarus (reserved for the angels which kept not their first estate)].

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. [This is the judgment of the unsaved dead, called the Great White Throne Judgment]

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. [This the resurrection of the unjust or the resurrection unto damnation, where those who were in Hades now stand before God and the record of their works is opened]

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; [Those who died at sea are included in this resurrection]

...and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: [All the dead and all the souls and spirits in Hades are brought before God to be judged]

...and they were judged every man according to their works. [There will be degrees of punishment in Hell (the Lake of Fire)]

14 And death and hell [Hades] were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.[*Death* and *Hades* are personified here (as in Rev 6). The meaning is clear -- death on earth is terminated at this point, and Hades is abolished, since there will be no more unsaved dead. *The second death* is the eternal separation of sinners from God, who will experience eternal torment in the Lake of Fire -- a very specific place in *outer darkness*]

HELL ALSO FOR ALL THE UNSAVED DEAD
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. [All the unsaved dead are cast into the Lake of Fire, where the devil, the beast, the false prophet, and all the evil angels have been consigned for eternity].

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. [There will be no unrighteous person or unrighteousness in the New Heavens and the New Earth and here's why -- But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (Rev 21:8)]

I've NEVER said heaven is NOT a place.

You didn't but another dear sister did, and she has already received her assignment.;)

 

[Enoch111]

But that which is spiritual is spiritual and that which is literal is literal..
You can't travel enough miles to finally land at a spiritual place!!!!!

Heaven is BOTH very spiritual and very tangible. And it is beyond outer space. The New Jerusalem in Heaven (where God and Christ are presently found, see Heb 12:22-24) is constructed of heavenly gold (*pure gold* which is transparent) and precious stones. It has 12 foundations garnished with 12 precious stones, a wall constructed of jasper (a precious stone), 12 gates, and countless mansions (John 14:1-3). It is 1500 cubic miles in dimension (as large and as deep as a continent). Christ traveled all those miles from Heaven to earth, then returned to Heaven, and will come back from Heaven.

ACTS 1
9 And when he [Christ] had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; [ANGELS]
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. (Mark 16:19)

And it came to pass, while he [Christ] blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven. (Luke 24:51)

 

[Helen]

Heaven is BOTH very spiritual and very tangible. And it is beyond outer space.

You must be joking.....And you really believe this?!!!

Nowhere in the bible does it say that.
You are in for a shock my friend...
It is not tangible....
1 Corinthians 15:50
"Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."
And you somehow believe that if we had enough power and the right vehicle we could eventually "get there" somewhere out in space.

Who else believes this @amadeus @ScottA etc
Am I alone in believing it is a SPIRITUAL place...because God IS Spirit.
He is not 'a' Spirit...He IS Spirit.

Blessings...H ( fun)

 

[ScottA]

ACTS 1
9 And when he [Christ] had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; [ANGELS]
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

There are two sides to the "like manner" equation, one worldly of flesh and blood, and the other spirit, as God is spirit.

But the flesh will not concede without a fight. The thing is...the flesh doesn't have to go...nor can it.

 

[bbyrd009]

I know that this is one of your 'pet' ones.

well, only bc it is the pet one of most Christians now too, along with ancient Chinese Emperors and Egyptian Pharaohs, and various other pagans. The diff being the Christians have a Book that directly, more than once, plainly states otherwise

I don't believe that we 'go' anywhere

of course you are inferring "after we literally die" here, but interesting to me how applicable your statement is to right now for most Christians, who often express this same sentiment about right now, huh? This "i don't know what God wants me to do" thing? Anyway, fwiw i believe we go somewhere too, only this "i" that believes that will not survive the trip, being as how i made him up! :)

 

[bbyrd009]

No one can imagine in their wildest fantasies that "Heaven is right here". And the Bible makes it crystal clear that Heaven is NOT right here.

21 ...no one will say, 'Look here!' or 'There!' For you see, the kingdom of God is among you."

which pretty much disallows your pov of heaven past the edge of the universe,
where i could conceivably point to it, and it is also not among me, wadr

 

[bbyrd009]

You sure do know a lot about where heaven is and where hell is.
Is this taught by calvinist teachers?
How could they be sure what or where it is?

darnel is how :)

 

[bbyrd009]

! John 3:9 is NOT an apparent verse. It is the word of God.

it isn't Word, which must be heard, but regardless of that i did not say that the v was apparent, either, so i'll reload and allow you to address the post if you like,

yes, so iow anyone who becomes "saved" in the common understanding we as Western Christians all hold is now immediately also made into someone who cannot possibly sin, just like the v apparently says right

iow "...according to your interpretation of the v," not denying that the v exists, mmmkay?

 

[bbyrd009]

When anyone is saved he has been given eternal life at the moment of conversion.

regardless of them twice the sons of hell or seven worse spirits i guess, sure

However, only in his soul has he been saved, hence in his soul existence, which is born from above, he does not sin or cannot sin.

right, and he can't possibly be on tares or anything either, in fact it is not possible for him to do anything wrong as soon as he makes a little public profession with no finger crossies

On the other hand, his body has not been saved as yet until the last day when it is resurrected.

a body is a soul, ok Jun and i understand you are dying to go to Valhalla and be with Constantine and all his cult of Sol buddies ok, me too, but it is not going to happen, as Scripture will plainly outline when you read It without Tassel Toes to help you. And i don't mean to put the guy down ok, i'm sure he is doing the best he can, and even serving God.

But wadr this moment of conversion that we all like to believe happens on our profession, this is a really bad idea ok?
imo

On the other hand, his body has not been saved as yet until the last day when it is resurrected. In the meantime, while he lives the rest of his life on earth, he will continue to sin as his body is still unsaved.

see, we have Scriptures that make this impossible though, ok, many, many Scriptures that this will not tally with

To God Be The Glory

ya, ok, maybe that will help

 

[bbyrd009]

Paul went there but he wouldn't talk about it.

we just treated this, and while i got no real affirmations i also don't recall any serious challenges to the notion that Paul was really outlining a way to tell certain stories in the 3rd Person so as not to be perceived as boasting. Just a theory, but note that heaven is really only mentioned, no specifics of the journey are forthcoming iow?

on a related note, where do we go when we are dreaming?
How can we be sure that that place is not more real than here?

 

[bbyrd009]

Then why say anything?

hilarious, and i mean the icing on the cake lol, the cherry on top
chutzpah much?

see, we have Scriptures that make this impossible though, ok, many, many Scriptures that this will not tally with

 

[amadeus]

You must be joking.....And you really believe this?!!!

Nowhere in the bible does it say that.
You are in for a shock my friend...
It is not tangible....
1 Corinthians 15:50
"Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."
And you somehow believe that if we had enough power and the right vehicle we could eventually "get there" somewhere out in space.

Who else believes this @amadeus @ScottA etc
Am I alone in believing it is a SPIRITUAL place...because God IS Spirit.
He is not 'a' Spirit...He IS Spirit.

Blessings...H ( fun)

And the flesh and its ways are dying. Final death will come to the flesh, but should we not be helping the fleshly ways of the lust of the eyes, the lust of flesh and the pride of life to begone even faster?

As to outer space it may sound fun when described by some scientists or science fiction writers, but science does not bring Life in spite of the technology which sometimes makes the flesh comfortable. It does not change us inside removing the selfishness . Why should we suppose that moving away from here [to outer space for example] physically would be cause for improvement?

Men for the most part are still as selfish as they ever were. Jesus brought something better but even many carrying the Christian label deny it with their actions [or lack thereof] no matter what words they may speak. They don't really want to fight any battles now. They want easy street now but that is not according to God's plan...

 

[GodsGrace]

darnel is how :)

What's darnel?