Premils won't understand the amil view until they understand this.

[Spiritual Israelite]

If you mean to say that my questions are based on reason, then I accept that.

No, of course I don't mean that.

BTW, you don't understand the verses you quoted.

Yet, you are completely incapable of backing up that statement with any convincing evidence just like you never back up anything you say with any convincing evidence.

Now, who is thinking "carnally" (your words)?

That would be you. I think I made that clear.

Our rational questions are equally valid and worthy of consideration. Without question, Jesus reigns over his disciples. And, in some churches, Christians reign over each other. And without question, Jesus has been granted authority over all peoples and authorities. However, these fundamental truths do not contradict my initial questions.

Although Jesus has been granted authority over all peoples and spiritual authorities, we do not yet see him ruling over them. Why is that?

You are the one saying He's not ruling over them, not me. Your understanding of His reign is flawed. Using your logic, God has never reigned over the earth since He never has controlled everything people do. So, do you claim that God has never reigned over the earth?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Exactly, they ignore the obvious in order to promote the ridiculous.

That is what you do. By the way, you are lending support to someone who denies the deity of Christ. So, he knows a lot about ignoring the obvious. What is obvious is that Jesus Himself said He has authority over all of heaven and earth (Matt 28:18). You premils ridiculously think He can't be reigning unless He is controlling everything that happens. That's like saying the governor of a state is not governing unless everyone in the state is doing everything he or she wants them to do. Talk about ridiculous.

It is obvious that the Kingdoms of this present evil world are not serving Christ, neither are the saints reigning over the Kingdoms of this present evil world.

It is obvious that you don't know what it means to reign. So, you think John was mistaken when he said believers have been MADE priests and kings (Rev 1:5, Rev 5:9)? You think Peter was mistaken to call the church "a royal priesthood" (1 Peter 2:9)?

 

[Davidpt]

Exactly, they ignore the obvious in order to promote the ridiculous. It is obvious that the Kingdoms of this present evil world are not serving Christ, neither are the saints reigning over the Kingdoms of this present evil world.

Daniel 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.


And look what this verse records---and all dominions shall serve and obey him. Does that sound like that fits the here and now? Maybe if you think when someone rapes someone, or someone murders someone, for instance, it is because they are serving and obeying Him. Maybe then it might fit the here and now. Only in Amil's twisted view of Scriptures can Daniel 7:27 be meaning the here and now. That verse says all dominions and not some dominions instead.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

It is obvious that you don't know what it means to reign.

I can say the same to Amils. If Christ was presently reigning on earth with all his resurrected saints then RIGHTEOUSNESS would be REIGNING in the world , not sin and wickedness.

2 Peter 3:13
Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

 

[Marty fox]

Of course not. But Satan is bound at the beginning of the Millennial Kingdom. And then loosed at the end of the Millennial Kingdom. Trhey simply are two events that take place at the same time. There is lots of hypotheses for why, but they are not spoken directly in Scripture so I shall not speak of them wither.

Then why does the binding end before satan final assault and the reigning end at the end of our world as shown in revelation chapter 20?

 

[WPM]

I can say the same to Amils. If Christ was presently reigning on earth with all his resurrected saints then RIGHTEOUSNESS would be REIGNING in the world , not sin and wickedness.

2 Peter 3:13
Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Christians today share in the Messianic triumph of Christ. Salvation brings them into the sphere of Christ’s kingly rule. Within this realm, believers are enlightened, nourished, empowered and sustained. Believers are citizens of a heavenly kingdom (Philippians 3:20–21). They are seated in heavenly places (Ephesians 2:4-6, 11-14, 3:1). They now rule and reign with Him in life and in death.

Please read Romans 5:17, “For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.”

We are positionally reigning now in life through Christ. Such was secured through Christ’s victorious work at Calvary. There, Christ defeated every enemy of righteousness – including sin, death, the grave, hell, Satan, sickness, the demonic realm, and so on. The people of God, being “in Christ,” have therefore entered into that victory and have been given kingdom authority over the demonic realm through the blood of Jesus when moving in the Spirit and in the will of God. In fact, the word "shall" in the King James Version doesn’t actually appear in the original but is added by the translators.

Listen to what Paul teaches in Romans 8:16-17: "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together."

Being “joint-heirs with Christ” means that we enjoy the benefits and privileges of what He won for us through His sinless life, His atoning death, and His victorious resurrection. What is more, as "joint-heirs with Christ" we reign because He reigns.

 

[CadyandZoe]

No, of course I don't mean that.

Then what do you mean by "carnal thinking" because your language is not Biblical?

Yet, you are completely incapable of backing up that statement with any convincing evidence just like you never back up anything you say with any convincing evidence.

There you go again, diverting the conversation away from the topic at hand. Isn't your approach indicative of your inability to refute your own eyes?

You are the one saying He's not ruling over them, not me.

I'm not only saying it, I asked everyone to look outside to see if I am right. Those who lookout side will draw one of two conclusions: 1) Jesus is ruling over the nations right now, but he is so inept and unwise that he is incapable of effecting God's righteousness on the earth, or 2) the corruption, partiality, greed, injustice, unrighteousness, immorality, child molestation, money laundering, child and woman trafficking among other evils are clear evidence that Jesus is NOT ruling over the nations. I chose to believe the latter.

Your understanding of His reign is flawed.

Refute what I said above.

So, do you claim that God has never reigned over the earth?

Before I answer that, consider 1 Samuel 8:4-7 and let me know what you think.

4 Then all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah; 5 and they said to him, “Behold, you have grown old, and your sons do not walk in your ways. Now appoint a king for us to judge us like all the nations.” 6 But the thing was displeasing in the sight of Samuel when they said, “Give us a king to judge us.” And Samuel prayed to the Lord. 7 The Lord said to Samuel, “Listen to the voice of the people in regard to all that they say to you, for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me from being king over them.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Then why does the binding end before satan final assault and the reigning end at the end of our world as shown in revelation chapter 20?

Does Revelation 20 say that the reigning ends?

 

[Marty fox]

Does Revelation 20 say that the reigning ends?

Revelation 20
5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.)

&

11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Revelation 20
5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.)

&

11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.

I may have misunderstood. I thought that you said the reigning ended.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Christians today share in the Messianic triumph of Christ. Salvation brings them into the sphere of Christ’s kingly rule. Within this realm, believers are enlightened, nourished, empowered and sustained. Believers are citizens of a heavenly kingdom (Philippians 3:20–21). They are seated in heavenly places (Ephesians 2:4-6, 11-14, 3:1). They now rule and reign with Him in life and in death.

Please read Romans 5:17, “For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.”

We are positionally reigning now in life through Christ. Such was secured through Christ’s victorious work at Calvary. There, Christ defeated every enemy of righteousness – including sin, death, the grave, hell, Satan, sickness, the demonic realm, and so on. The people of God, being “in Christ,” have therefore entered into that victory and have been given kingdom authority over the demonic realm through the blood of Jesus when moving in the Spirit and in the will of God. In fact, the word "shall" in the King James Version doesn’t actually appear in the original but is added by the translators.

Listen to what Paul teaches in Romans 8:16-17: "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together."

Being “joint-heirs with Christ” means that we enjoy the benefits and privileges of what He won for us through His sinless life, His atoning death, and His victorious resurrection. What is more, as "joint-heirs with Christ" we reign because He reigns.

In what way are we reigning? I don't see a defeat of sin, death, the grave, hell, or Satan.

 

[Davidpt]

Then why does the binding end before satan final assault and the reigning end at the end of our world as shown in revelation chapter 20?

How can anyone still be reigning a thousand years with Christ after the thousand years have expired? If the text meant a thousand years and a little season, that's what the text would have said.

Instead of this--- and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years--this instead-- and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years and a little season.

The latter is adding to the text. Something one is not supposed to do. Has it ever crossed your mind that this purpose for reigning a thousand years with Christ, that once this thousand years have been fulfilled, this purpose for reigning a thousand years is no longer needed? That it has served it's purpose. And maybe it's now time for some testing instead. But I guess instead of something like that, you apparently must think it's a better idea to add to the text. Because clearly, nowhere in ch 20 does it ever say they reign with Christ a thousand years and a little season.

 

[WPM]

In what way are we reigning? I don't see a defeat of sin, death, the grave, hell, or Satan.

Jesus said in Matthew 16:18-19: “I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys (or authority) of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed In heaven.”

He was given us His power. The Church of Jesus Christ carries “the keys (or authority) of the kingdom of heaven” now. They operate in the authority of that victorious kingdom through Christ. The Church has been given authority over the demonic realm of Satan; they have the kingly authority to resist every spiritual attack of the evil one upon their lives. Therefore, wherever the Church advances, the work of Satan is assuredly bound. Where ever the light is shone the darkness is dispelled.

But how possibly can we exercise God’s authority when it is supreme? Surely that is ludicrous!

Jesus said in Mark 13:34: “For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.

This authority that Jesus was speaking about has been left for you and me that love Him. We are His servants and we have been given His authority. It is delegated power and authority. This is incredible!

This word interpreted “authority” here is the exact same word that is used to describe God’s authority and Christ authority in the New Testament. Again, like we learned last week, this is the Greek word exousia (ex-oo-see’-ah) which means right, privilege and authority.

The Church currently exists in its heavenly authority procured for them by Christ who has already defeated every enemy. The introduction of the kingdom of God through Christ’s earthly ministry saw the beginning of Christ’s assault upon the global control of Satan. It is through the finished work of Calvary that the Church now walks in victory. The responsibility of the Church is to simply enter into the reality of that great eternal work by faith. We reside on a far higher spiritual plane than this sin-cursed earth, namely in the throne-room of God. Abiding there ensures we walk by His will, His commands and His blueprint rather than our own carnal desires.

While we are physically located on earth as Christians, we are spiritually located in heavenly places with Christ. Our authority could not be greater or higher.

· It is divine authority.
· It is heavenly authority.
· It is supernatural authority.
· It is spiritual authority.

But authority means nothing unless you use it. It must be enforced.

Think about that! Darkness cannot handle the light. When light shines, darkness must go. As the Church of Jesus Christ spreads the good news (or light of the Gospel) throughout the world the devil is exposed for who he is: he is stupid, he is a fool, he is a loser.

Jesus said in Luke 10:18-19: “Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.”

We have power over Satan since the cross! If you are walking in obedience, the devil has no authority over you. But you have much power over him. Think about this we have power over Satan and all his demons! He cannot do as he pleases against the people of God. There is much Scripture that says we have power over him.

Many Christians imagine power and authority to be the same thing. But as we found out last week: they are not! Scripture uses two different Greek words to describe the distinction.

Luke 9:1 records: "Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power [dunamis] and authority [exousia] over all devils, and to cure diseases."

· Authority = exousia
· Power = dunamis

Authority is the channel through which power operates. Authority is the legal authorization to function. Power has to do with the outworking of that authority.

 

[WPM]

How can anyone still be reigning a thousand years with Christ after the thousand years have expired? If the text meant a thousand years and a little season, that's what the text would have said.

Instead of this--- and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years--this instead-- and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years and a little season.

The latter is adding to the text. Something one is not supposed to do. Has it ever crossed your mind that this purpose for reigning a thousand years with Christ, that once this thousand years have been fulfilled, this purpose for reigning a thousand years is no longer needed? That it has served it's purpose. And maybe it's now time for some testing instead. But I guess instead of something like that, you apparently must think it's a better idea to add to the text. Because clearly, nowhere in ch 20 does it ever say they reign with Christ a thousand years and a little season.

So, what are the redeemed doing in Satan's little season then?

 

[Marty fox]

I may have misunderstood. I thought that you said the reigning ended.

Only at the end of our world

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

Christians today share in the Messianic triumph of Christ. Salvation brings them into the sphere of Christ’s kingly rule. Within this realm, believers are enlightened, nourished, empowered and sustained. Believers are citizens of a heavenly kingdom (Philippians 3:20–21). They are seated in heavenly places (Ephesians 2:4-6, 11-14, 3:1). They now rule and reign with Him in life and in death.

Please read Romans 5:17, “For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.”

We are positionally reigning now in life through Christ. Such was secured through Christ’s victorious work at Calvary. There, Christ defeated every enemy of righteousness – including sin, death, the grave, hell, Satan, sickness, the demonic realm, and so on. The people of God, being “in Christ,” have therefore entered into that victory and have been given kingdom authority over the demonic realm through the blood of Jesus when moving in the Spirit and in the will of God. In fact, the word "shall" in the King James Version doesn’t actually appear in the original but is added by the translators.

Listen to what Paul teaches in Romans 8:16-17: "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together."

Being “joint-heirs with Christ” means that we enjoy the benefits and privileges of what He won for us through His sinless life, His atoning death, and His victorious resurrection. What is more, as "joint-heirs with Christ" we reign because He reigns.

Christ is presently reigning in the hearts and minds of His elect saints, but that does not mean Christ is reigning on earth physically along with all His resurrected saints.

This does not happen until AFTER the first resurrection of the dead in Christ.

Daniel 7:22
Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

 

[Marty fox]

How can anyone still be reigning a thousand years with Christ after the thousand years have expired? If the text meant a thousand years and a little season, that's what the text would have said.

Instead of this--- and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years--this instead-- and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years and a little season.

The latter is adding to the text. Something one is not supposed to do. Has it ever crossed your mind that this purpose for reigning a thousand years with Christ, that once this thousand years have been fulfilled, this purpose for reigning a thousand years is no longer needed? That it has served it's purpose. And maybe it's now time for some testing instead. But I guess instead of something like that, you apparently must think it's a better idea to add to the text. Because clearly, nowhere in ch 20 does it ever say they reign with Christ a thousand years and a little season.

Did you even read to OP

Read post #1 & post #49

 

[WPM]

Christ is presently reigning in the hearts and minds of His elect saints, but that does not mean Christ is reigning on earth physically along with all His resurrected saints.

This does not happen until AFTER the first resurrection of the dead in Christ.

Daniel 7:22
Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Who do we reign over then in life?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Daniel 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.


And look what this verse records---and all dominions shall serve and obey him. Does that sound like that fits the here and now? Maybe if you think when someone rapes someone, or someone murders someone, for instance, it is because they are serving and obeying Him. Maybe then it might fit the here and now. Only in Amil's twisted view of Scriptures can Daniel 7:27 be meaning the here and now. That verse says all dominions and not some dominions instead.

This is a strange thing for someone who believes in free will to say. Why would you think that Him reigning has something to do with controlling everything people do? Is that what reigning is? Being a dictator who controls everything people do? I guess you think God also has never reigned over the earth since He has allowed those things to occur almost since the beginning of time?

Is there something you don't understand about Jesus saying He has all authority and power in heaven and on earth (Matt 28:18)? Is that a confusing statement to you? Do you think He actually said He only has some authority in heaven and earth?

Is there anything confusing about what Paul wrote here:

Ephesians 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Are you saying that Paul didn't know what he was talking about when he wrote this? Are you saying that it's not actually true that Jesus is in a place of authority "Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come"? Do you think it's not true that all things are under His feet? Do you think it's not true that He is "the head over all things to the church"?

 

[WPM]

This is a strange thing for someone who believes in free will to say. Why would you think that Him reigning has something to do with controlling everything people do? Is that what reigning is? Being a dictator who controls everything people do? I guess you think God also has never reigned over the earth since He has allowed those things to occur almost since the beginning of time?

Is there something you don't understand about Jesus saying He has all authority and power in heaven and on earth (Matt 28:18)? Is that a confusing statement to you? Do you think He actually said He only has some authority in heaven and earth?

Is there anything confusing about what Paul wrote here:

Ephesians 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Are you saying that Paul didn't know what he was talking about when he wrote this? Are you saying that it's not actually true that Jesus is in a place of authority "Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come"? Do you think it's not true that all things are under His feet? Do you think it's not true that He is "the head over all things to the church"?

Exactly bro! They have a big devil and a small God. That goes with the territory of Premillennialism.