Premillennial interpretation is utterly out of the question, Rev. 19

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Arthur81

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According to the premillennialist, the seven churches of Asia spoken of in the second and third chapters, are seven periods of history from John's time, down till the time of Christ's return. The fourth chapter begins the Tribulation period at the beginning of which the righteous dead are raised and together with the pious living are caught up into the air to be with Christ while the Tribulation is on the earth.

There is not one syllable in the book that conveys such information, and we are not justified in making types out of plain, historical and didactic statements at the pleasure of the interpreter. The Scriptures do indeed contain many types. They are legitimate in their place; but the habitual type-maker is the despair of interpretive science.

Now according to the premillennialist all the chapters four to eighteen inclusive describe the Tribulation. No matter that Jerusalem, and the temple, and the altar are there, still unfallen; no matter that Rome is there on her seven hills, with her seven kings; no matter that the angel said: "And the harlot is that great city that reigneth (or is then reigning) over the kings of the earth." The premillennialist just disposes of all that with his usual facility. He just whips it all off into the future as something that has not yet come to pass, notwithstanding the plain indications of the book.

Now when the premillennialist comes to this nineteenth chapter he concludes that the Tribulation period, said by some to be seven years, is over. And that Christ and the church who have been in the air during these seven years, now descend to the earth, and that is what is meant by the rider on the white horse and the armies that follow him. So that the world is conquered not by the gospel, but by the second coming of Jesus Christ. And the beast is the Tribulation king, or Anti-Christ, which is to rule the world in some future age and which Christ will destroy when he comes. What are the objections to this view of the nineteenth chapter?

1st. The coming of this rider on the white horse is accompanied with a good deal of description and detail. It indicates a process rather than an event. When Christ comes it is said to be sudden, in the twinkling of an eye, like the flash of lightning from one end of heaven to another. When you read through the chapter you will see no suddenness to any of these events, but rather deliberate progress. It is unlike the Second coming in this respect.

2nd. The writer insistently holds it before us that the sword is in the rider's mouth. This sword is the weapon of conquest. Paul in describing the Christian armor says: "The sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God." All this picture and all its related phraseology teaches us that the weapon that conquers the world is the word of God, or the gospel of Jesus Christ. We are not to look for the world to be converted by some spectacular cataclysm, but by the preaching and teaching, and testimony of the church that is clothed in the fine linen of righteousness. That is the way the Roman Empire was conquered for Christ as a matter of history and that is the way it will be till the end of time.

3rd. The absolutely conclusive fact comes out in the end that John shows, yea says in so many words, that this conflict of the rider was with the beast and false prophet — that same old beast that we have been dealing with through all these chapters, the beast of the seven hills, and the seven kings, the beast that bore the harlot woman which was "that city," and the false prophet associated with him, viz. pagan Rome. No one unbiased by a theory could drag this out of the historical past and put it into a hypothetical future to which not one of these historical references bear any allusion. The book clearly fixes who these personages are, fixes their place in geography and history, and we would have to disrupt the whole story to admit the premillennial interpretation.

4th. The revealer repeatedly declared to John that he was to see visions of things that "must shortly be done." We submit that it is straining the meaning of words too much to make shortly mean several thousands of years.

For these reasons we conclude that the premillennial interpretation is utterly out of the question.
Taken from D.. S. Clark's Commentary on Revelation, "Message from Patmos"
 
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Randy Kluth

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According to the premillennialist, the seven churches of Asia spoken of in the second and third chapters, are seven periods of history from John's time, down till the time of Christ's return.
I don't know where you get your info from, but it's not true. It's true that *some* Premills believe that the 7 churches = 7 era in Church history. But I'm a Premill, and I *don't* believe that. It isn't even a standard belief in Premill overall. It's typically part of Dispensationalism, I think, but not Premill overall.
Now when the premillennialist comes to this nineteenth chapter he concludes that the Tribulation period, said by some to be seven years, is over. And that Christ and the church who have been in the air during these seven years, now descend to the earth, and that is what is meant by the rider on the white horse and the armies that follow him.
Arthur, you're rolling all Premills into one ball. Here, you're talking exclusively of Pretrib Premills. There are Postrib Premills who do *not* believe that the Church is "in the air" for "seven years!"

So I'm done reading, if you're going to sweep this all in one stroke. It conveys false ideas.
 

Arthur81

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I don't know where you get your info from, but it's not true. It's true that *some* Premills believe that the 7 churches = 7 era in Church history. But I'm a Premill, and I *don't* believe that. It isn't even a standard belief in Premill overall. It's typically part of Dispensationalism, I think, but not Premill overall.

Arthur, you're rolling all Premills into one ball. Here, you're talking exclusively of Pretrib Premills. There are Postrib Premills who do *not* believe that the Church is "in the air" for "seven years!"

So I'm done reading, if you're going to sweep this all in one stroke. It conveys false ideas.
You are correct, Randy, and I should have clarified that. I suppose that it seems to be the Dispensational model that you hear constantly, so I did not think anything about it as I posted these. I'll state that if I make further quotes from Clark's commentary.
 

Randy Kluth

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You are correct, Randy, and I should have clarified that. I suppose that it seems to be the Dispensational model that you hear constantly, so I did not think anything about it as I posted these. I'll state that if I make further quotes from Clark's commentary.
Thanks brother. I'm so strongly opposed to some elements of the Dispensationalist brand of Premil that I had to voice my concerns. But I do understand how you saw it, and would agree with some of your arguments.

George E. Ladd is someone whose Premillennialism I follow pretty much, though there are always things I disagree with. Oddly, when I wrote Ladd many years ago to express where I disagreed with him I received a letter back informing me that sadly, Ladd had died! His brand of Premil lives on, right or wrong. ;)

Carry on....
 

Spiritual Israelite

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You are correct, Randy, and I should have clarified that. I suppose that it seems to be the Dispensational model that you hear constantly, so I did not think anything about it as I posted these. I'll state that if I make further quotes from Clark's commentary.
You can edit your original post and, even though I'm not Premil, I think you should just to be fair to Premils like Randy. It seems that you are arguing more against pre-trib dispensationalism than against premillennialism in general.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Thanks brother. I'm so strongly opposed to some elements of the Dispensationalist brand of Premil that I had to voice my concerns. But I do understand how you saw it, and would agree with some of your arguments.

George E. Ladd is someone whose Premillennialism I follow pretty much, though there are always things I disagree with. Oddly, when I wrote Ladd many years ago to express where I disagreed with him I received a letter back informing me that sadly, Ladd had died!
Oh my. That's quite a sad story. :oops: :)
 

Randy Kluth

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Oh my. That's quite a sad story. :oops: :)
Well, it was strange. It happened again with another well-known person later. I was asking questions of Gretchen Passantino when she suddenly did not get back with me. Later, I looked her up on the internet and learned she had died!
 

ewq1938

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2nd. The writer insistently holds it before us that the sword is in the rider's mouth. This sword is the weapon of conquest. Paul in describing the Christian armor says: "The sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God." All this picture and all its related phraseology teaches us that the weapon that conquers the world is the word of God, or the gospel of Jesus Christ.


The gospel is not a weapon but is peace.

Rom_10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Well, it was strange. It happened again with another well-known person later. I was asking questions of Gretchen Passantino when she suddenly did not get back with me. Later, I looked her up on the internet and learned she had died!
Goodness gracious. I suggest from now on you find out if someone is alive or not first before trying to contact them (kidding).
 

Randy Kluth

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Goodness gracious. I suggest from now on you find out if someone is alive or not first before trying to contact them (kidding).
With Gretchen we were actually trading emails! She was alive! No matter--we know where she went. Didn't agree with her view on this particular Christian cult, but otherwise was a brilliant Christian.
 

Arthur81

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I don't know where you get your info from, but it's not true. It's true that *some* Premills believe that the 7 churches = 7 era in Church history. But I'm a Premill, and I *don't* believe that. It isn't even a standard belief in Premill overall. It's typically part of Dispensationalism, I think, but not Premill overall.

Arthur, you're rolling all Premills into one ball. Here, you're talking exclusively of Pretrib Premills. There are Postrib Premills who do *not* believe that the Church is "in the air" for "seven years!"

So I'm done reading, if you're going to sweep this all in one stroke. It conveys false ideas.
Randy, Pastor Clark mentions "C. I. Scofield and J. H. McConkey" but does not refer to them as "Dispensationslists". Here is his foreward -

FOREWORD (the date stamp from the Princeton Library is 1/21/1927)

It seems desirable to state in the beginning that this exposition of The Revelation seeks to present the obvious meaning of the Apocalypse as it appears in the text taken at its face value, including its many references to other parts of the Scriptures. We have not tried to force the book into the molds of any theory ; but to ask, what does the book say and what does it evidently mean ?

In the pursuit of this purpose we have been led to pass criticism upon the premillennial view of the Apocalypse. We trust such criticism has not been unduly pressed ; but since the view in question is somewhat prevalent at the present time, and is backed with a considerable literature it has received more than a passing notice in the present volume. This statement is made because the writer desires to disclaim antagonism to the premillennialists for whom he entertains a very high regard and whom he counts as his friends. For while the writer dissents from that particular doctrine he stands firmly by and with the premillennialist in his defense of the integrity, authority and inspiration of the holy Scriptures; and would define himself as a postmillennial fundamentalist.

The writer acknowledges indebtedness to a variety of sources; among others to Archdeacon Farrar, in his various works on the New Testament.

Professor William Milligan, in the Expositor's Bible Series.

The Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia.

The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia,— James Orr.

David Keppel, The Book of Revelation not a Mystery.

David Brown, The Structure of the Apocalypse ; rather vague and sketchy.

C. I. Scofield, J. H. McConkey and others from the premillennial side. But chiefly to a scholar now unhappily too much forgotten, viz. Professor Henry Cowles whose commentary on the entire Bible evinces profound scholarship, extensive information, penetrating insight, sound common sense, practical judgment, and better than all, entire loyalty to the authority of God's word.

That this little book may honor God, extend the kingdom of Jesus Christ, and clarify the thoughts of its readers on what is considered a difficult portion of the holy Scriptures, is the desire and prayer of the writer.

DAVID S. CLARK, 2438 North 19th Street, Philadelphia, Pa.

 

Spiritual Israelite

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With Gretchen we were actually trading emails! She was alive!
Whoa, that makes it even worse. Sorry you had to experience that.

No matter--we know where she went. Didn't agree with her view on this particular Christian cult, but otherwise was a brilliant Christian.
Yes, that is what matters in the end.
 
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CadyandZoe

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Revelation 19 perfectly describes the return of Jesus to rule over the nations.
 

Randy Kluth

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Whoa, that makes it even worse. Sorry you had to experience that.
When I wrote Ladd he may have still been alive, as well. I believe he had *just died* when I sent my letter to him. It's sad, not because he died so much--he was old. But it was sad for me because I idolized the guy at the time, and really wanted to bring a few ideas before him where I disagreed. He had a strong influence on me, and there weren't many who might address my concerns from his perspective.

Oh well, I think God doesn't want us to depend too much on others, though they can be of great service to us. In the end, it is our study and our own relationship with God that counts. Thanks for indulging me on this brother. These are indeed matters of the heart...

And Ladd's influence on me wasn't just his eschatology. It was also the way he accurately and respectfully portrayed the beliefs of others when proposing his own views on a subject. He was so fair it was difficult to figure out where he stood, at times.

I'd like to be that way, I've tried, often, to be that way--to give a true, respectful portrait of what others believe even when I don't agree with them. Each individual is made in the image of God, and if they are a Christian they have gifts from God that must be both recognized and respected, despite any imperfections.

We can only do better when we learn to hear others out, sometimes find a truth in the midst of errors or ignoring an error in the midst of truths. :)
 

Davy

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According to the premillennialist, the seven churches of Asia spoken of in the second and third chapters, are seven periods of history from John's time, down till the time of Christ's return. The fourth chapter begins the Tribulation period at the beginning of which the righteous dead are raised and together with the pious living are caught up into the air to be with Christ while the Tribulation is on the earth.
You assume too much. I believe in Christ's future pre-mill return, simply because that is what is written in God's Word. There is NO SUCH IDEA written in God's Word about any other timing for Christ's future return. Not one iota.

Nor do I believe any such idea that Christ's seven Messages to the seven Churches in Asia represent periods of Church history. That is a John Darby dispensationalism idea, mostly pushed in the false pre-trib rapture churches.

Nor does Revelation 4 show a rapture of the Church. That again is a theory of those who preach a false pre-trib rapture theory which John Darby in 1830's Great Britain was first to preach that doctrine in a Christian Church (other than Edward Irving maybe, one of Darby's cohorts.)