Predestination vs free will: is there really any conflict in Scripture?

[FHII]

Jostler,

All that is intriguing, and I must admit I don't spend enough time in places like Samuel. I spend a lot of time in the Bible, but not as much in these places, nor in Isaiah or Jeremaiah.

But based on what I have labored under, I don't believe in free will (as the theory says). But as for predestination, while it is truth, it doesn't help us.

God HAS certainly predestined people. But he never gives names much. A few times he did. But mostly, he gives a plan and says they that follow the plan are predestined.

He knows who, but we don't. He knows who will follow the plan, but we don't know if we make it until we finish.

 

[Jostler]

FHII, if you read all that, and feel I explained it in a way that is faithful to the text...I'm tickled with that. Lots of people that genuinely love the Lord Jesus have disagreed on these bigger issues of Predestination , free will, election and all that and if you disagree with me on some of those issues, I'm comfortable with that. We're all trying to figure out how to understand and apply His Word, and I doubt any of us has every understanding held in perfection yet. I fully trust the Spirit, the Teacher of the Church, to finish the work He has begun in both of us. :)

 

[Jostler]

By the way, I didn't get that from my own study either. That circumstance in 1st Samuel 23 was brought to my attention by Dr. Michael Heiser. Not sure if you might have heard of him, but he's an interesting resource for anyone that wants to really study.

 

[Enoch111]

The actual outcome was determined by a man's free will choice.

The real issue is not foreknowledge vs free will, but predestination vs free will. Divine foreknowledge does not override free will but takes it into account. Predestination is according to divine foreknowledge, but what is the purpose of predestination? According to Calvinists it is salvation (justification) but according to the Bible it is glorification and perfection.

 

[Tong2020]

I'll leave you to work out the implications, but at least in this case, God's perfect foreknowledge...didn't happen. The actual outcome was determined by a man's free will choice.

To me, that passage is not what you make it out to be, as something that God foreknew which did not happen. That was about something that David heard, like he got news reaching him. What David did was to ask the Lord of what he heard was true. So it is really a matter of God telling the truthfulness or falsity of what David heard. And God could, for he knows the heart of men. And with that, David acted as he did.

Tong
R3795

 

[Renniks]

What if the future is truly open and God knows many futures? What if it's not predetermined at all?
How would this affect how we live?
Or do we all already live like that is true?

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

I'll leave you to work out the implications, but at least in this case, God's perfect foreknowledge...didn't happen. The actual outcome was determined by a man's free will choice.

Your thinking is flawed. God has foreknowledge of things that will happen and things that He will prevent from happening. That is what having sovereignty allows God to do.
God had foreknowledge of Saul's intentions, his thinking - which he prevented from be coming a reality AND what actually did happen.
So in essence, God told David, "This is Saul's plan - if you don't respond, don't do anything about it, this and what will happen. He knew what David would do akready.
God warns us all the time of danger. HIS SPIRIT guides us to avoid such evil and sinister salready.

Free will is not so free. The Bible says we are either slaves to God or slaves to Satan.
If we had free will, there could be no judgment when we died, the wages of sin would not amount to death - we would be free of it and when we died, no one would be in charge of our spirits, we could just float off to anywhere we chose, unrestricted.

We were bought with a price ... So we a free to do Gid's will.

 

[Renniks]

If we had free will, there could be no judgment when we died, the wages of sin would not amount to death - we would be free of it and when we died, no one would be in charge of our spirits, we could just float off to anywhere we chose, unrestricted.

That doesn't make sense. I think you must have a very odd view of what Free Will is. If we have no Free Will, there can not be any judgement because we aren't liable for actions we have no control over.

 

[Robert Gwin]

I'm going to link this thread back to a discussion from another, different thread, so some of the context may be lost on those reading this by itself. But the context isn't really necessary to understand the point I want to make.

This is a single example from the Word, that can potentially influence our biblical understanding of whole range of very controversial biblical topics, such as predestination, election, free will and the security of our salvation.

The answer to the question I posed in the thread title is "no, there are no conflicts in the Bible". The conflicts always come as a result of us misunderstanding the Bible.

(To be continued)

No conflict in scripture, no predestination

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

That doesn't make sense. I think you must have a very odd view of what Free Will is. If we have no Free Will, there can not be any judgement because we aren't liable for actions we have no control over.

We have a will, but it is not free. Total freedom would be complete unrestrictive actions without penalties. Are we free of God's guidance, free of Satan's influence?
Before you were a Christian, do you think your were independent of God's guidance, love, Grace, protection? If He just let you go off freely, with Satan out there, you wouldn't have made it to your second birthday. You were written in the Book of Life -before you were born. So God had a plan for you and made sure that you or Satan didn't screw it up. NOW, as for the freedom to make the decisions, whether good or bad, existed, they existed within His plan and purpose for you. We are His sheep and when we go astray, He guides us, corrects our path so we don't go off a cliff.
He is actively involved in the significant/major choices in our lives. Even the little mistakes can be deadly. He is watching every move so you don't screw things up too badly. Or do you think you are free from all that?

I just saw a movie about a shepherd who had hundreds of sheep. He was trying to train one of his dogs to be a good sheep dog, but it wasn't working. One night that dig opened the gate and let the sheep out and chased them over the cliff.
Those sheep had free will for a very short time and their shepherd was asleep until it was too late. Thankfully God is not asleep on the job.

 

[Renniks]

We have a will, but it is not free. Total freedom would be complete unrestrictive actions without penalties.

That's not what we mean by Free Will.
Of course there's penalties for actions. But we still make our own choices.
And I don't believe God chooses us from birth.

 

[Butch5]

I'm going to link this thread back to a discussion from another, different thread, so some of the context may be lost on those reading this by itself. But the context isn't really necessary to understand the point I want to make.

This is a single example from the Word, that can potentially influence our biblical understanding of whole range of very controversial biblical topics, such as predestination, election, free will and the security of our salvation.

The answer to the question I posed in the thread title is "no, there are no conflicts in the Bible". The conflicts always come as a result of us misunderstanding the Bible.

(To be continued)

While I agree with your conclusion, I would submit that the whole debate is wrong. Men have created doctrines and given them Biblical titles. When the Bible refers to ones being predestined, it is referring to Israel. The Election, is Israel. Man has free will, that was taught from the start of the Church. This debate, Predestination vs. Free Will is not Biblical. It's a debate where certain people have misunderstood the use of the word predestine in the Bible and created a doctrine from it. This erroneous doctrine is then used to argue for the Greek/Gnostic doctrine of Fatalism. Fatalism is the idea that all things are fated. This was the position of Augustine, he just changed the source from fate to God. However, as I pointed out, the church, from the very beginning, taught that man has free will.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

That's not what we mean by Free Will.
Of course there's penalties for actions. But we still make our own choices.
And I don't believe God chooses us from birth.

So do you think you were able to chose God without His assistance, His enabling you, drawing you and lifting the veil of blindness so that you could see? Did you do that on your own independent free will?

 

[robert derrick]

Notice. God positively "foreknew", that Saul was coming to besiege the city, and He "foreknew" that the men of Keilah would turn David over to Saul. Funny thing is NEITHER of those things actually happened!

At this point, I would pause with: God positively forewarned David. I know this is what they will do, IF you stay in place.

God's foreknowledge is of what He will do IF, any heed His forewarning and promise, whether for good or evil.

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son. (Rom 8)

'Whom' God foreknows is not the individual by name, but rather 'whom' is any that heed His Word. It is a statement pertaining to kind not to specific name.

Names have not been prewritten, but names of them that prove themselves to be that kind are then written in the book of life. Whomsoever proves themselves worthy by faith:

Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling...and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. (2 Thess 1)(Rev 3)

Therefore, God foreknows that whomsoever is proven worthy of His calling, has destiny to be conformed to His Son's image, if they continue to walk worthy of His calling.

He knew what kind would be worthy, and He knew what destiny they had in store by it, and yet it is still conditioned on continuing to walk worthy of the calling: to keep the faith of the promise in deed and in truth, and not just in word and tongue.

 

[Butch5]

I've seen the word "foreknowledge" spoken of quite a bit. The word literally means before-know or to know before. it's not used of knowing the future. It's used of knowing in the past. It talks of knowing someone or something in the past.

And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. (Rom. 8:28-30 KJV)

Notice all of the verbs are past tense. Those God knew in the past He, predestined, called, justified, and glorified.

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the choice sojourners of the dispersion of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 according to a foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, to obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied!(1 Pet. 1:1-2 YLT)

To the elect sojourners of the dispersion, according to God having known you before, grace to you and peace.

22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: (Acts 2:22-23 KJV)

Something God had previously known because He planned it.

4 My manner of life from my youth, which was at the first among mine own nation at Jerusalem, know all the Jews;
5 Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.
(Acts 26:4-5 KJV)

The word "knew" here is the same word, proginosko, that is translated foreknew. In other words Paul is saying the Jews that knew me before, from the beginning.

As we can see all of the uses of this word are past tense. It's talking about God knowing in the past. It's not talking about seeing the future.

 

[Renniks]

So do you think you were able to chose God without His assistance, His enabling you, drawing you and lifting the veil of blindness so that you could see? Did you do that on your own independent free will?

I chose to respond to his drawing. Enabling is not causing.
He draws all btw. Not all respond.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

I chose to respond to his drawing. Enabling is not causing.
He draws all btw. Not all respond.

True. But at least admit that "no one can come to the Father unless He first draws them"!
Think about what actually is involved in this drawing Power? Wow, it would be equivalent to volumes of books of His plan for just one person. Every event, every person that you are directly or indirectly effected by, accidents and many that are avoided, health, education, jobs, hobbies, sports, and all the guidance given along the way directly voiced into your thoughts or from people sent to you, and lets not forget prayers for you are all part of His plan for just one person. That just keeps you alive and on the path.
All of these things are orchestrated in such a way to lead you to that divine appointment and this over many years, the course of your life.
But the most important and crucial part of the plan is where and when the Word is given you. Bits and pieces throughout your life are planted by various people, sermins are heard, invitations to church rejected and finally accepted. Time is given for this whole process. FAITH COMES BY THE WORD - not by someone's blind free will and happenstance. FAITH is God's persuasion given to the person - so for some it takes awhile to persuade them. No one can remove that spiritual blindness by lifting their own veil. That is God enabling us to then receive Him. We become convinced because He convinced us, showed us the LIGHT. We can't resist it anymore, we are drawn to it; it makes sense to us; we realize this is what was missing in our lives and so we have to have it. That is what a powerful God who loves us does.

 

[Renniks]

True. But at least admit that "no one can come to the Father unless He first draws them"!
Think about what actually is involved in this drawing Power? Wow, it would be equivalent to volumes of books of His plan for just one person. Every event, every person that you are directly or indirectly effected by, accidents and many that are avoided, health, education, jobs, hobbies, sports, and all the guidance given along the way directly voiced into your thoughts or from people sent to you, and lets not forget prayers for you are all part of His plan for just one person. That just keeps you alive and on the path.
All of these things are orchestrated in such a way to lead you to that divine appointment and this over many years, the course of your life.
But the most important and crucial part of the plan is where and when the Word is given you. Bits and pieces throughout your life are planted by various people, sermins are heard, invitations to church rejected and finally accepted. Time is given for this whole process. FAITH COMES BY THE WORD - not by someone's blind free will and happenstance. FAITH is God's persuasion given to the person - so for some it takes awhile to persuade them. No one can remove that spiritual blindness by lifting their own veil. That is God enabling us to then receive Him. We become convinced because He convinced us, showed us the LIGHT. We can't resist it anymore, we are drawn to it; it makes sense to us; we realize this is what was missing in our lives and so we have to have it. That is what a powerful God who loves us does.

I agree with a lot of that, but I also believe we can always resist. How else do we explain atheists? How else do we explain people who have had all the information they need and still leave God?

 

[n2thelight]

All don'

I'll leave you to work out the implications, but at least in this case, God's perfect foreknowledge...didn't happen. The actual outcome was determined by a man's free will choice.

All don't have free will

 

[farouk]

All don'


All don't have free will

Ephesians 2 makes it clear that before one is born of the Spirit of God bu His grace, one is 'dead in trespasses and sins'.