Predestination: A Calvinist Fairy Tale.
- Thread starter Robert Pate
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John calvin and martin luther got their false doctrine from augustine as they were big fans!
augustine was a follower of manichaeism before he started playing like he was a Christian when the romain empire played like they made Christianity it's state religion and outlawed other religions like manichaeism which was once one of the world's most popular religions.
You should know what YOU are talking about before opening yo mouth and sounding stoopid!
None of my posts advocate or support universalism.
Some that cannot read and comprehend what they are reading may think so, but they be mistaken and fakin the bacon
Of course satan is the author of manichaeism, catholicism, and reformed theology such as calvinism and lutherism
Stumpmaster
Well-Known Member
Yeah, in my early days on the internet I discovered a few Calvinist sites like that. My point to Robert Pate was for him to understand the apologetic Calvinists rely on.
Luther was a drunk and a heretic rejected certain portions of God's Word because... we are actually saved by faith AND works.
God has call us unto good works and those that are disobedient to the gospel reject that
The real terror is the Lord not allowing some in to Heaven since Jesus did say "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that DOES THE WILL OF MY FATHER" (Matthew 7:21).
Jesus also said thru the Apostle James to "be ye DOERS OF THE WORD, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves" (James 1:22)
The Lord expects His people to DO some stuff after getting born again... in fact, getting born again requires some good work on our part which of course the Lord empowers us to do... but we have to make the decision to either submit to Him or not to submit to him.
Luke 9:23
And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
If it were by faith alone and no action is required on our part... then Jesus would not have said “let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me” in Luke 9:23.
Only living faith saves, since faith without works is dead... faith alone is not saving faith because there's no good fruit being produced by that faith because it is dead as in the person is not acting like their faith is true and real. Folks that believe this are deceived according to James 1:22 which tells us to “doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves”.
God does not accept dead faith as that faith is no better than the devil’s faith! (James 2:19)
1 Corinthians 3:9
For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
Philippians 4:13 tells us "I can do all things through Christ which strengthens me" so this agrees with John 15 that the Lord is the One bearing good fruit thru us IF we are co laborers with the Lord and allow the Holy Spirit to lead us (Romans 8:14) and IF we allow the Holy Spirit to live in us (Romans 8:9)
Matthew 7:18,19
A corrupt tree cannot bring forth good fruit.
Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
John 15:2
Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Reckon Jesus didn't get the memo from the so called reformers that salvation is by faith only??? (see James 2:14-26)
The Lord says the following thru the Apostle James:
James 2:17
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
James 2:20
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
James 1:21,22
Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness (walking after the flesh – see Gal 6:7,8), and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
Apparently one is justified by faith AND by works.... and the man that believes justification is by faith only is a "vain" man.
Sounds like either Jesus is wrong or the so called reformers are wrong since they teach an partial truth and leave the part out about works leaving the door open to sinful living (license to sin).
Martin Luther was a known drunk so I can see how he would want to leave the part about works out so he could continue drinking his beloved booze which is living in sin! (see 1 Corinthians 6:9-13)
Quite the quandary here... who shall we say is in error the Lord or the reformers??? That tis the question!
James is not a good source of Chistian doctrine. The book of James was directed to law keeping Jews, James 1:1. James was a Judaizer. A Judaizer is one that believes in Jesus but also believes that one must keep the law of Moses.
James sent men to spy on Peter and Barnabas to see if they were eating with Gentiles, Galatians 2:11-21.
James was the head of the church in Jerusalem. James wanted to circumcise Gentile believers, Acts 15:1-41.
There was man Judaizers in the early church. I am sure that James came into the truth at a later date.
So, you're basically saying Jesus Christ is not powerful enough to prevent satan from putting lies into God's Word?
Your view is Jesus just couldn't hack it and satan deceive him somehow?
I got news for you homie... James got the doctrine he wrote from the Lord Jesus thru the Holy Ghost.
Those claiming James is nothing more than lies are creating strife between themselves and the Lord and need to repent of their sin!
The Bible does not hide the sins and the mistakes of God's people. Why is James writing a letter to law keeping Jews?
Why did James send men to spy on Peter and Barnabas?
Why does James want to circumcise Gentile believers?
It was to Christians... all the first Christians were Jews... and it was the Lord Jesus that provided the info that was written and it is applicable to ALL Christians.
Only those that have been deceived by false doctrine claim James is not part of God's Word.
This is something the extreme gracers claim and it's false doctrine.
I know Peter was bowing down to the judiazerss and he had to be corrected.
Pastors are called top watch over their flock
That was settled at the Counsel of Jerusalem in Acts 15 to cast out the teachings of the judiazers
So WHERE in the Book of James doe you see James instructing gentiles to get circumcised?
Acts 15:41. James was the head of the church in Jerusalem. James relented, Acts 15:12-21 But not without laying more law on them. Acts 15:20-21.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
and your proof that Luther and Calvin were big fans of Augustine is???? Yes as Catholics they highly regarded Augustine, especially Luther as he was of the Augustinian order, but when they left the RCC, Augustine fell away ini their thinking. Even you are a fan of parts of Augustinian thought.
Yes Augustine was a follower of Manichaeism, but Manichaeism has nothing to do with predestination/election/free will.
Manichaeism had to do with a dualistic cosmology and not predestination of the individual.
Yes it was popular but still ran in third place behind Christianity and classical polytheism.
The Counsel of Jerusalem was led by the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ to declare the only part of the OT law that was a sin for Christians to partake in was... idolatry, fornication (sexual and spiritual), and to not eat meat that had been strangled or that had blood in it. (the Lord never included Saturday sabbath much to the Saturday people chagrin)
Acts 15:20,21
But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
The council was led by the Lord that Gentile converts to Christianity were not obligated to keep most of the rules prescribed to the Jews by the Mosaic Law, such as Jewish dietary laws and other specific rituals, including the rules concerning circumcision of males. The council did, however, retain the prohibitions on eating blood, meat containing blood, and meat of animals that were strangled, and on fornication and idolatry, sometimes referred to as the Apostolic Decree
Is it your position that idolatry, fornication (sexual and spiritual), and to not eat meat that had been strangled or that had blood in it.... are not actually sins for Christians and we can get jiggy with these sins?
When God abolished the law, he abolished all of it, not just some of it, Ephesians 2:15. "Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believes" Romans 10:4. The law promotes sin, Romans 7:7-12. James was a screwed up Judaizer. Galatians 7:12.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
I like all you say except calling James a screwed up Judaizer and using a non existent chapter of Galatians to defend it.
No, James was not actually a judaizer. He led the counsel in Acts 15 against the judaizers.
If James was teaching error then they would have to mean Jesus made a mistake by putting the Book of James in God's canon... which is exactly what the heretic Martin Luther claimed.
So, we'll put you down as someone who believes the Apostles in the Book of Act were deceived by satan... and idolatry, fornication (sexual and spiritual), and eating meat that had been strangled or that had blood in it.... are not actually sins.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
James never called on gentiles to be circumcised. Peter succumbed to weakness when strong Jewish believers came from James.
People tend to forget that Peter was the Apostle to the Jews and Paul was the Apostle to the gentiles. We both believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus for our sins, but the message contains many differences to each.
Jewish believers are still required to circumcise their sons on the eighth day . It is a perpetual covenant God made to Abraham and his seed throughout all their generations.
Believing Jews are also supposed to keep Sabbath rest. That also is a sign of the eternal covenant god made with Israel throughout all their generations.
No, actually under the New Covenant these items are not required for salvation and if one is Jewish and they believe they must do these things to be saved... they are trying to earn their salvation
Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
They can do these things because of their culture as a personal preference... but once it is claimed that they must do these things to be saved under the New Covenant... they are not obeying the Gospel.
Jews do not have a different way of getting saved than gentiles do under the New Covenant.
I've posted this elsewhere on this forum but I'll also repost it here as it's germane to this discussion.
Predestination (based upon the foreknowledge of God)
Premise: God knows the beginning and the end, so therefore he must also know all that will occur within the entire expanse of time including everything that will occur in the middle, between the beginning and the end of time.
Predestination as discussed in the bible (below passages) can therefore be easily explained when taking into consideration the foreknowledge that God possesses as also noted in scripture, which factor is germane to the proper understanding of predestination but is most often, if not always, overlooked and not considered when examining/discussing predestination.
Further, based upon God’s foreknowledge, all things must therefore then be already determined (destiny/fate); how can they not be if God knows the future? How can God know the future if it is fluid, dynamic, and changes, unless such fluidity and change is part of His foreknowledge, which it obviously must be? If things were fluid, dynamic, and/or random and subject to unexpected or unknown constant change to God, God would not know what was going to happen in the future and would not be able nor have been able to predict future events through His prophets. So, if God does know what will happen in the future, the future must already be set or determined and unchangeable (destiny/fate).
This premise further has profound implications when considering things such as prayer. This would have to then mean that God knows that you will (future) be praying for something before you pray for it. It doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t pray for it then, it simply means that the future is already known or has already been determined (due to God’s ‘foreknowledge’ of it), and your prayers, are simply fulfilling that which is already known to God and will occur as does everything else that occurs or will occur (also due to the “foreknowledge” of God). Whatever influences we think we have upon any given thing or subject through prayer or other actions, may in fact be as such, however, such influences are already known to God by His foreknowledge, and have therefore already been determined and are just the fulfillment of that which has already been determined will/should occur.
If God knows the beginning, the end, and as stated everything in between, then one can only conclude that all things have already been determined and are NOT able to be changed (destiny/fate) by prayer or anything else (once again due to the “foreknowledge” of God) and that all things that are done are so done in accordance with God’s plan and predicated upon and consistent with His “foreknowledge”. This is not to say that certain individuals were chosen first as being special or better than others and predestined accordingly, but rather means that once the plan was set into motion (the creation of all things), that the creation itself and related natural unfolding, sequential events, including the actions taken by individuals pursuant to the exercise of their own free will, would result in various things being done and events unfolding as a result thereof, but because God knows what those things will be in advance of them happening due to His “foreknowledge”, and predestination then being consistent with said “foreknowledge. Predestination then is successive to and in harmony with the “foreknowledge” of God.
Jer 1:5 5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
Rom 8 28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
1 Pet 1:2 2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Eph 1 1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Never said they are required for salvation. They never were. They are just acts done because God made ETERNAL Covenants with Israel that involve circumcision and Sabbath Keeping.
God foreknew that Jesus was going to be the savior of the world. God predestinated Jesus to be the savior of the whole world. The elect are those that have elected to believe in Jesus.
If it is any different than that then you have an unjust God that cannot be trusted.
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