Pre-destination and the elect

[JoeinArkansas]

Joe,


John MacArthur
If God is sovereign, is He responsible for evil?

No. Scripture says that when God finished His creation, He saw everything and declared it "very good" (Genesis 1:31). Many Scriptures affirm that God is not the author of evil: "God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone" (James 1:13). "God is light, and in Him there is no darkness at all" (1 John 1:5). "God is not the author of confusion" (1 Corinthians 14:33)-and if that is true, He cannot in any way be the author of evil.
Occasionally someone will quote Isaiah 45:7 (KJV) and claim it proves God made evil as a part of His creation: "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things" (emphasis added).
But the New American Standard Bible gives the sense of Isaiah 45:6-7 more clearly: "There is no one besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other, the One forming light and creating darkness, causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the Lord who does all these." In other words, God devises calamity as a judgment for the wicked. But in no sense is He the author of evil.
Evil originates not from God but from the fallen creature.

It is helpful, I think, to understand that sin is not itself a thing created. Sin is neither substance, being, spirit, nor matter. So it is technically not proper to think of sin as something that was created. Sin is simply alack of moral perfection in a fallen creature. Fallen creatures themselves bear full responsibility for their sin. And all evil in the universe emanates from the sins of fallen creatures.

Dear Justaname,
Scripture simply does not support John MacArthur. Whether God created evil or calmity, it does not matter. Calmity is evil and it kills and destroys. You are ignoring the verses I posted so that your "idol of the heart" is not removed. God said that if there is evil in a city that He is responsible for it. That does not make God evil because the evil does not produce harm but good. God knows how to "work all things together for good". Mankind is not wise enough to do this but God is. God does not tempt but He sends Satan out to tempt. All things are of God, if you don't believe that then the only alternative is to believe that God's creation is out of His control and He is trying to salvage it as best He can. That view of God is untrue and unscriptural. God's power is supreme and when the word goes out from His mouth, it WILL NOT return to Him void. He said He is creating mankind in His image and that involves us learning about evil by experiencing it. Then He said that He would save us all from that evil by sending His son to save the world. He is not willing that any should be lost. To believe any less is a direct assault on the truthness of God's Word and His supreme power. God views mankind's power as "nothing" and He will accomplish all His desires, mankind's "will" not withstanding. No one that God created can resist Him and His will. Scripture says it is impossilble. You should believe Him if you want to come closer to the knowledge of God.

Joe

 

[justaname]

Joe,

If God is responsible for evil then He is evil, I know this to be untrue. You speak blasphemy.

2Cor 17-18

17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. ​

​

​

18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,​

​

​

When studying the word of God it is best to keep things in context, and better to understand the original language.​

​

​

Look at this verse and tell me all things are from God.​

​

​

1 John 2:18-19​

​

​

18 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour. ​

​

​

19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us. ​

​

​

​

​

​

 

[us2are1]

I'm really struggling with the idea of predestination for a select few that God ahs set aside to be spared the torments of eternal hell-fire.

As i udnerstand it, all are guilty of sin and fall short of the glory of God. Therefore all deserve hell, but God through his mercy and grace has permitted some individuals to be with him in his kingdom, whilst all the rest burn in hell.

So before a person is born, God ah decided where they will go when they die, but what if a person who is pre-destned to go to hell becomes a Christian? is it in vain. Also, what if a person who is pre-destined for heaven becomes an athiest. Where is the justice, and mor eimportantly where is their room for free will?

You see, if we don't ahve free will then we are not responsible for what we do wrong because we are destined to do it and it is unavoidable so surely then we canot be held accountable, except for the fact that if we are destined for hell then we are held accountable for what ever we do, wether we repent or not.

I'm jsut struddling because pre-destination seems to horribly unfair and God is not unfair.

Clearly Paul believed it and Martin luther and John Calvin both believed it, so sicne it has a solid gorunding in scripture, i canot jsut dismiss it as some ind of invention of the reformation.

God is responsible for everything. Including destroying those who would not listen to His word. Whether or not He created them to go there. As for holding anyone over a flame for eternity that is not even in scripture. Man is flesh and when he is dead he is gone with no brain function and no consciousness. He becomes a dead soul. That is the reason for the resurrection from the dead at Christ's return.

 

[epostle1]

I'm really struggling with the idea of predestination for a select few that God ahs set aside to be spared the torments of eternal hell-fire.

As i udnerstand it, all are guilty of sin and fall short of the glory of God. Therefore all deserve hell, but God through his mercy and grace has permitted some individuals to be with him in his kingdom, whilst all the rest burn in hell.

So before a person is born, God ah decided where they will go when they die, but what if a person who is pre-destned to go to hell becomes a Christian? is it in vain. Also, what if a person who is pre-destined for heaven becomes an athiest. Where is the justice, and mor eimportantly where is their room for free will?

You see, if we don't ahve free will then we are not responsible for what we do wrong because we are destined to do it and it is unavoidable so surely then we canot be held accountable, except for the fact that if we are destined for hell then we are held accountable for what ever we do, wether we repent or not.

I'm jsut struddling because pre-destination seems to horribly unfair and God is not unfair.

Clearly Paul believed it and Martin luther and John Calvin both believed it, so sicne it has a solid gorunding in scripture, i canot jsut dismiss it as some ind of invention of the reformation.

Eph. 1:5 - Paul teaches that God “predestined” us in love to be His sons through Jesus Christ. "Predestination" means that God knows what we will do before we do it (it does not mean that God determines what we do; otherwise, we would have no freewill). Predestination is taken from the Greek word "prooridzo" which means to know or declare in advance by God’s foreknowledge. See, for example, 1 Peter 1:2 where Peter writes about the “elect according to the foreknowledge of God.” The terms “predestination” and “the elect” always refer to God’s knowledge (not human knowledge) because God is outside of time (and humans cannot predict the future). There are two types of "predestination," to grace and to glory. In this verse, Paul is teaching about predestination to grace, which means becoming a Christian.

1 Pet. 1:1-2 – Paul teaches about being destined by God for obedience to Christ. This is another example of predestination to grace. But there is also predestination to glory.

Rom. 8:29-30 – Paul also writes that we are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. Now Paul is writing about predestination to glory, which means not only becoming a faithful Christian during our lives, but persevering to the end by conforming our will to Christ's will.

1 Cor. 15:49 – Paul writes that we are conformed in His image at the resurrection, when we shall bear the image of the man of heaven. These are the people who were predestined to glory.

Rev. 3:5 – Jesus warns that He can blot out the names that are in the book of life. This refers to those currently, not ultimately, justified (those who are predestined to grace, but not to glory).

Eph. 1:5; 1 Peter 1:2; Rom. 8:29-30; 1 Cor. 15:49 - therefore, predestination is either to grace (which we could lose) or to glory (which we cannot lose). As alluded to above, some Christians confuse the definition of "predestination" (which means God knows what we will do before we do it) and "predetermination" (the erroneous belief that God determines what we will do). But God does not author evil. We choose evil by our own freewill.

Ezek. 18:23-24, 32 - God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. Our death is our freewill, failing to respond to His grace. God does not predetermine certain people to hell. God also does not predetermine certain "elect" people to heaven. We all, as God's children, have been given the grace we need to be saved, but we can decide to reject God's grace.
source

 

[us2are1]

As alluded to above, some Christians confuse the definition of "predestination" (which means God knows what we will do before we do it) and "predetermination" (the erroneous belief that God determines what we will do). But God does not author evil. We choose evil by our own freewill.

Not true.

Psalm 139
16 Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed. And in Your book they all were written, The days fashioned for me, When as yet there were none of them.

 

[epostle1]

Not true.
Psalm 139
16 Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed. And in Your book they all were written, The days fashioned for me, When as yet there were none of them.

Psalm 139 is a hymnic meditation on God's omnipresence and omniscience. The psalmist is keenly aware of God's all knowing gaze (1-6) of God's presence in every part of the universe (7-12) and God's control over the psalmist very self. (13-16) There is only one place hostile to God's rule - wicked people. The Psalmist prays to be removed from their wicked company. (19-24) What Psalm 139 proves is predestination to glory, God does not predetermine people to be wicked. That is a psychotic monster, not a loving Father.

 

[us2are1]

Psalm 139 is a hymnic meditation on God's omnipresence and omniscience. The psalmist is keenly aware of God's all knowing gaze (1-6) of God's presence in every part of the universe (7-12) and God's control over the psalmist very self. (13-16) There is only one place hostile to God's rule - wicked people. The Psalmist prays to be removed from their wicked company. (19-24) What Psalm 139 proves is predestination to glory, God does not predetermine people to be wicked. That is a psychotic monster, not a loving Father.

Do you think maybe you can go and find a higher authority and accuse Him before them and bring Him under judgement?
Your judgement against God is psychotic insane and futile.

Read this.


17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth."

 

[epostle1]

Do you think maybe you can go and find a higher authority and accuse Him before them and bring Him under judgement?
Your judgement against God is psychotic insane and futile.

Read this.


17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth."

I am not judging God, I am judging the false notion that God predetermines people to be wicked. That view is psychotic, because it makes God out to be the author of sin. Do you read scripture the same way you read my post?

Read this:

God raised up Pharaoh to display divine severity in punishing those who obstinately oppose their Creator. Pharaoh still freely chose to stubbornly oppose God. Verse 14 says, "What are we to say? that there is injustice on the part of God? Of course not!.
What is so just about God having Pharaoh or anyone else on puppet strings?

When the text said that Pharaoh hardened his own heart, why is it impermissible to say that "Pharaoh did exactly that"? The two have to be harmonized somehow. In order to do so, they cannot both be taken literally, or at least not literally in the same sense. So it is not quite as simple as is being made out. God, being omniscient, knows everything that man will do before he does it, and so can work His sovereign plan around those actions, and can incorporate man's free actions in so doing.

We don't have to deny human free will or pretend that it is somehow an entity that could possibly override God's sovereignty. It does not and indeed cannot do so. That doesn't mean that God can create free creatures who necessarily won't sin. I'm talking about His providence in using the sin caused by man for His good purposes. Sin can't overcome that.

A perfectly holy God does not, and cannot positively ordain sin and evil (and I would contend, with all due respect, that it borders on blasphemy to claim that He does do so, though it is not intended to denigrate God at all, from a Calvinist perspective). But He can use the evil originated in sinful creatures for His own purposes.

 

[Templar81]

We;;, what does make people wicked? Some people can have a lovely upbringing but just be rotten through and through and some can have a terrible life na d he wonderful people, so surely those who are wicked are pre-determned to be wicked in order to test the faithful who are either destined to succeed or fail. God can test you but he knows the end result, however we don'tknow what the outcome is going to be.

Another example of those who are predetined to suffer is the blind man in John's Gospel. The disciples asked Jesus if the man or his parents have sinned and Jesus tells them that he is afflicted so that he could be a sign of God's power. Jesus gives the man his sight but up until then he had to suffer the physical effects of blindness and the stigma that the Jewish society placed on him. In short, he ahd been pre-ordained to suffer.

 

[us2are1]

I am not judging God, I am judging the false notion that God predetermines people to be wicked. That view is psychotic, because it makes God out to be the author of sin. Do you read scripture the same way you read my post?

Read this:

God raised up Pharaoh to display divine severity in punishing those who obstinately oppose their Creator. Pharaoh still freely chose to stubbornly oppose God. Verse 14 says, "What are we to say? that there is injustice on the part of God? Of course not!.
What is so just about God having Pharaoh or anyone else on puppet strings?

When the text said that Pharaoh hardened his own heart, why is it impermissible to say that "Pharaoh did exactly that"? The two have to be harmonized somehow. In order to do so, they cannot both be taken literally, or at least not literally in the same sense. So it is not quite as simple as is being made out. God, being omniscient, knows everything that man will do before he does it, and so can work His sovereign plan around those actions, and can incorporate man's free actions in so doing.

We don't have to deny human free will or pretend that it is somehow an entity that could possibly override God's sovereignty. It does not and indeed cannot do so. That doesn't mean that God can create free creatures who necessarily won't sin. I'm talking about His providence in using the sin caused by man for His good purposes. Sin can't overcome that.

A perfectly holy God does not, and cannot positively ordain sin and evil (and I would contend, with all due respect, that it borders on blasphemy to claim that He does do so, though it is not intended to denigrate God at all, from a Calvinist perspective). But He can use the evil originated in sinful creatures for His own purposes.

You said "That is a psychotic monster, not a loving Father" To those who know God you have just Judged God without knowledge or understanding. I wonder why almighty God did not consult you on what is right and wrong, good and evil before creating everything.

 

[epostle1]

You said "That is a psychotic monster, not a loving Father" To those who know God you have just Judged God without knowledge or understanding. I wonder why almighty God did not consult you on what is right and wrong, good and evil before creating everything.

Calm down Mr. Son of Man, for the second time- I am not judging God, I am judging the heresy of double predestination, (which makes God a psychotic monster) and a large number of Protestants agree that it is a heresy. If you want to defend Calvinism, research double predestination, defend it on scriptural grounds, and stop attacking me over something I never said. If you are going to quote a scripture, have the courtesy to include the book and chapter number, not just the verse. Lashing out at me because I refuted your abuse of Romans 9:17 (your single objection to post #44) is not discussion, it's bar room brawling.

 

[us2are1]

Calm down Mr. Son of Man, for the second time- I am not judging God, I am judging the heresy of double predestination, (which makes God a psychotic monster) and a large number of Protestants agree that it is a heresy. If you want to defend Calvinism, research double predestination, defend it on scriptural grounds, and stop attacking me over something I never said. If you are going to quote a scripture, have the courtesy to include the book and chapter number, not just the verse. Lashing out at me because I refuted your abuse of Romans 9:17 is not discussion, it's bar room brawling. If this forum had an ignore feature I would use it on you. I don't debate with children.

Nothing makes God anything other than God. None of the trash that comes out of the mouths of men does anything to God. God loses nothing because it is all written in heaven and everything is on schedule and nothing can go wrong because there is no one, no thing that has the power to hinder it one iota. God kills and God makes alive God wounds and God heals and there is no one who can deliver from His hand.






.

 

[justaname]

God is responsible for everything. Including destroying those who would not listen to His word. Whether or not He created them to go there. As for holding anyone over a flame for eternity that is not even in scripture. Man is flesh and when he is dead he is gone with no brain function and no consciousness. He becomes a dead soul. That is the reason for the resurrection from the dead at Christ's return.

You do not understand the concept of a Sovereign, and the existence of evil. Evil comes from sin or rebellion. You must be fallen in order to sin. God can not sin or rebel thereby He can not be responsible for evil.

So is God responsible for confusion? Is God responsible for evil?
NO.

If God is responsible for evil then no one else is responsible. Yes God is in control because that is how great He is, but He is not the author of confusion. Understand, there is no darkness in Him. How can that which is good have anything to do with evil?

 

[epostle1]

You do not understand the concept of a Sovereign, and the existence of evil. Evil comes from sin or rebellion. You must be fallen in order to sin. God can not sin or rebel thereby He can not be responsible for evil.

So is God responsible for confusion? Is God responsible for evil?
NO.

If God is responsible for evil then no one else is responsible. Yes God is in control because that is how great He is, but He is not the author of confusion. Understand, there is no darkness in Him. How can that which is good have anything to do with evil?

Well said, justaname. It reminds me of a link I keep in my bookmarks. The Problem of Evil

 

[us2are1]

You do not understand the concept of a Sovereign, and the existence of evil. Evil comes from sin or rebellion. You must be fallen in order to sin. God can not sin or rebel thereby He can not be responsible for evil.

So is God responsible for confusion? Is God responsible for evil?
NO.

If God is responsible for evil then no one else is responsible. Yes God is in control because that is how great He is, but He is not the author of confusion. Understand, there is no darkness in Him. How can that which is good have anything to do with evil?

I understand perfectly. You have judgments in your heart against God if he is a certain way. Your judgments are without knowledge or understanding. Then in your vanity you would expect God, who you hate if he is a certain way, to come and explain it to you.

7 I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the Lord, do all these things.'

39 'Now see that I, even I, am He, And there is no God besides Me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; Nor is there any who can deliver from My hand.

 

[justaname]

You have your judgement of me and so you are judged in the manner in which you judged. Matthew 7:2

You are not God and you can not see into my heart.

 

[us2are1]

You have your judgement of me and so you are judged in the manner in which you judged. Matthew 7:2

You are not God and you can not see into my heart.

Only when you speak. for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.

34 Brood of vipers! How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.

 

[epostle1]

Scripture tennis, anyone?

 

[justaname]

I understand perfectly. You have judgments in your heart against God if he is a certain way. Your judgments are without knowledge or understanding. Then in your vanity you would expect God, who you hate if he is a certain way, to come and explain it to you.

Please show me where my mouth demonstrated this type of judgement from you. Then tell me how your judgment is edifying to me or the church.

 

[epostle1]

Patience, justaname. My theory is that people with a fear based spirituality have had a very hard life. Let's both try and do better. Son of Man, I apologize if I have written anything that would anger you.