Poll: HISTORY - Did the Apostles ever make it out...?

[ScottA]

The things that Jesus Spoke of were the events that were to take place in sequence following the death and resurrection of our Lord.
Setting aside any personal beliefs regarding what you believe of Jesus when he was here on earth, because most of them are speculation and don’t line up with the Word.
According to Jesus Christ own words... it indicates He was fully man while on the earth (at least up until after His resurrection) … If that is not true then He lied ….and we know better. There are far too many scriptures that show limited knowledge regarding information of coming events …… Mat 10:23, Mar 13:32, Mar 13:30, to name a few …but there are a number of them.

Follow me on this

What Jesus knew and espoused was the information He knew and gleaned from the OT Scrolls…. And everything that He prophesied were to be the coming events.

Jesus did not lie …He simply did not know that God had a surprise …the mystery (secret) of the dispensation (administration) of grace which was kept hid in God and not fully realized until some years later after Pentecost.

Had the administration of grace not been sandwiched in ….all prophesized events from Jesus and the OT would have been the subsequent events…. Those prophecies will become a reality once this administration ceases …. which the Word shows… that will happen when Christ returns for the gathering together of the Church of the body.

Well...you have nearly quoted verbatim the "lie" that was believed and foretold of by Jesus, Peter. and Paul.

The error of which is not believing Jesus when He said otherwise. All of which is also written. The result of that lie that was believed came after it was propagated by "false teachers" entering into the church foretold by Peter, and elaborated by Paul as becoming the cause of "great apostacy", "strong delusion" and a "falling away."

All of which is now the state of the church today which began 2,000 years ago, as it is written, "the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world."

What Jesus said that was not believed and not seen because of blindness, was that He would in fact come "soon" giving the details of all "that must shortly take place', even specifically identifying the time as coming upon that generation to whom He spoke, speaking to them personally, saying "[you] will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven”, rather than some future generation as it is now taught. And what did He also say of those who begin to say, "My master is delaying his coming?"

“Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing. 47 Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods. 48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ 49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of, 51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 24:45-51
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Yes...and that is the current state of the church today.

 

[Tommy Cool]

Well...you have nearly quoted verbatim the "lie" that was believed and foretold of by Jesus, Peter. and Paul.

The error of which is not believing Jesus when He said otherwise. All of which is also written. The result of that lie that was believed came after it was propagated by "false teachers" entering into the church foretold by Peter, and elaborated by Paul as becoming the cause of "great apostacy", "strong delusion" and a "falling away."

All of which is now the state of the church today which began 2,000 years ago, as it is written, "the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world."

What Jesus said that was not believed and not seen because of blindness, was that He would in fact come "soon" giving the details of all "that must shortly take place', even specifically identifying the time as coming upon that generation to whom He spoke, speaking to them personally, saying "[you] will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven”, rather than some future generation as it is now taught. And what did He also say of those who begin to say, "My master is delaying his coming?"

“Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing. 47 Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods. 48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ 49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of, 51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 24:45-51
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Yes...and that is the current state of the church today.

You posed a question in your thread ….I answered.

If you didn’t like or believe the answer …no problem, state your case….and we could discuss it. But as is typical with people who have no answers… You twist what I say to fit your storyline in effort to discredit me with innuendos of me being a liar, a false teacher, the anti-Christ and possible I beat fellow-servants and eat and drink with the drunkards…

And yet nothing substantial to refute my post. And no answer…. to the answer you posed….UNLESS ….you are stating that Christ did return shortly afterwards. In which case how do you deal with the administration of grace….. it would be non-applicable in that scenario.

Other than that, I cannot tell what the heck you are talking about …. You are snagging scripture from here and there but …there is no conclusive pattern of what you are stating…. Maybe it’s from me drinking with the drunkards… but. I have read your response over several times and have no idea what you believe other than I might be apostate ….which is an absurd translation of hē apostasia.

 

[Marty fox]

Okay...sounds like the consensus is that the apostles did indeed make it out of or through the cities of Israel after being sent by Jesus.

So then...since Jesus had come already, what do you make of this passage?

Matthew 10:23
When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

​

@Truth7t7

I believe that this verse means that some of the deciples would still be preaching when Jesus came in judgement in 70AD.

 

[ScottA]

You posed a question in your thread ….I answered.

If you didn’t like or believe the answer …no problem, state your case….and we could discuss it. But as is typical with people who have no answers… You twist what I say to fit your storyline in effort to discredit me with innuendos of me being a liar, a false teacher, the anti-Christ and possible I beat fellow-servants and eat and drink with the drunkards…

And yet nothing substantial to refute my post. And no answer…. to the answer you posed….UNLESS ….you are stating that Christ did return shortly afterwards. In which case how do you deal with the administration of grace….. it would be non-applicable in that scenario.

Other than that, I cannot tell what the heck you are talking about …. You are snagging scripture from here and there but …there is no conclusive pattern of what you are stating…. Maybe it’s from me drinking with the drunkards… but. I have read your response over several times and have no idea what you believe other than I might be apostate ….which is an absurd translation of hē apostasia.

Don't be offended, but do realize that apostacy was to come...and if you believe what has been taught, you are not necessarily one of those that the warnings and the harsh words were meant for.

But yes, Jesus said all that "must shortly take place" and I do not say "My master is delaying his coming" as has been taught, but that everything He said was and is true. Unfortunately, comprehending just how all He said could actually be true was and is the failure of those who have not believed Him since the early founding of the church.

But you yourself have made an error in saying that the dispensation of grace was a surprise to Jesus from God, even assuming that Jesus is not God Himself. It was certainly no surprise, but in fact He made it perfectly clear that it was not, saying, "And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd." Foretelling also that He was "coming at an hour you do not expect", and “Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword." Even in telling a parable, He foretold what would happen to those who would come to say, "My master is delaying his coming." So, no, it was no surprise.

Both Peter and Paul then filled in some of the details which I have already given.

The question then becomes, when the falling away and great apostacy have run their course--which has now come, who will turn from it, and who will continue to prefer the lie that was told, which is that gathering of the wheat and the tares?

 

[ScottA]

I believe that this verse means that some of the deciples would still be preaching when Jesus came in judgement in 70AD.

To which I would say is no error, but rather a small enactment that the scriptures might be fulfilled of what is ultimately much greater in scope.

That is, that all things being "in Christ", He is the apex as if a Light shining through a prism cast into every generation, that makes "today the time of salvation" even for "this" and every generation. As Paul came to elaborate, that His coming, is rather "but each one in his own order."

 

[Marilyn C]

Okay...sounds like the consensus is that the apostles did indeed make it out of or through the cities of Israel after being sent by Jesus.

So then...since Jesus had come already, what do you make of this passage?

Matthew 10:23
When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

​

@Truth7t7

Hi Scott,

1. Apostles appointed when Jesus was on the earth. The 12 apostles had to have been with Jesus, seen him die, rise and ascend. They were WITNESSES of Jesus to Israel. (Acts 1: 22)

2. Apostles given by Jesus when He was in Heaven. These apostles were for the Body of Christ, to build up, equip, till the Body became mature. (Eph. 4: 11 - 13)

Two different purposes there. Marilyn.

 

[ScottA]

Hi Scott,

1. Apostles appointed when Jesus was on the earth. The 12 apostles had to have been with Jesus, seen him die, rise and ascend. They were WITNESSES of Jesus to Israel. (Acts 1: 22)

2. Apostles given by Jesus when He was in Heaven. These apostles were for the Body of Christ, to build up, equip, till the Body became mature. (Eph. 4: 11 - 13)

Two different purposes there. Marilyn.

And how does Jesus telling the apostles He appointed on earth about when He would come mark the time of when He would come again? When would what He said have meant?

 

[Marilyn C]

And how does Jesus telling the apostles He appointed on earth about when He would come mark the time of when He would come again? When would what He said have meant?

Hi Scott,

Jesus is telling the disciples of what will happen to their nation. Remember Jesus had come to His nation and that is His focus. All those things in Matt. 10: 16 - 26 are for the persecutions that would come over the centuries.

Then in the trib, the 144,000 will go throughout the world and especially Israel telling the people that the Messiah is coming.

That is the context of what the Lord is warning.

Marilyn.

 

[ScottA]

Hi Scott,

Jesus is telling the disciples of what will happen to their nation. Remember Jesus had come to His nation and that is His focus. All those things in Matt. 10: 16 - 26 are for the persecutions that would come over the centuries.

Then in the trib, the 144,000 will go throughout the world and especially Israel telling the people that the Messiah is coming.

That is the context of what the Lord is warning.

Marilyn.

But you have not acknowledged when they would actually have gone through all the cities of Israel (which He said would be the time of His come [again]).

In other words, those to whom Jesus spoke would have and did go through all the cities of Israel during their own lifetimes...and Jesus was not lying to them, but told them when He would return. That is the context as defined by Jesus.

 

[Tommy Cool]

Don't be offended, but do realize that apostacy was to come...and if you believe what has been taught, you are not necessarily one of those that the warnings and the harsh words were meant for.

But yes, Jesus said all that "must shortly take place" and I do not say "My master is delaying his coming" as has been taught, but that everything He said was and is true. Unfortunately, comprehending just how all He said could actually be true was and is the failure of those who have not believed Him since the early founding of the church.

But you yourself have made an error in saying that the dispensation of grace was a surprise to Jesus from God, even assuming that Jesus is not God Himself. It was certainly no surprise, but in fact He made it perfectly clear that it was not, saying, "And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd." Foretelling also that He was "coming at an hour you do not expect", and “Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword." Even in telling a parable, He foretold what would happen to those who would come to say, "My master is delaying his coming." So, no, it was no surprise.

Both Peter and Paul then filled in some of the details which I have already given.

The question then becomes, when the falling away and great apostacy have run their course--which has now come, who will turn from it, and who will continue to prefer the lie that was told, which is that gathering of the wheat and the tares?

I don’t get offended …but I do recognize innuendos.

And yup …those words do apply to me.

Following are statements by Jesus that shows he did not know everything…There are several statements throughout the gospels (and the epistles) that show Jesus walked as a man. …prior to His resurrection.

Mar 13:32 & Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.

Jhn 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.


These prophecy were stated by Jesus …. Did thy come to pass? No ….. Will they come to pass? absolutely.

Mat 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Mat 24:34 … Mar 13:30 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

It was no secret that the gentiles would be blessed under Abraham as you mentioned in Jhn 10:16….but the How…was a secret …of which both the prophets and the angels desired to see.

1Pe 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

1Pe 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

1Pe 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.


Mystery (secret) hidden with God

1Co 2:6 - 8


Mystery (secret) Given to Paul

Eph 3:2-6

Rom 16:25-27

Col 1:25&26


I should probably not get into the great apostacy that you speak of, which is a misrepresentation of the word apostasia from the verb form aphistēmi…. The definition is a distortion of the word brought about through the allegorical (tropological) interpretation of the Word of God. Although it probably started with Origen it continued throughout the Middle Ages ….….. Luther and others put the brakes on it.

No doubt there will be those who trip out …. walk away…. There have been plenty of times throughout the Bible of those who tripped out..Good heck …even before Paul’s death All (with distinction) of Asia had lost sight of the mystery and turned away from Paul’s teachings.
But the great apostacy referenced from 2Th 2:3 is a perversion of the word and the context.

 

[Marilyn C]

But you have not acknowledged when they would actually have gone through all the cities of Israel (which He said would be the time of His come [again]).

In other words, those to whom Jesus spoke would have and did go through all the cities of Israel during their own lifetimes...and Jesus was not lying to them, but told them when He would return. That is the context as defined by Jesus.

Hi Scott,

So are you telling me that they had to `endure to the end` to be saved? (Matt. 10: 22) Which disciples `endured to the end?`

 

[ScottA]

I don’t get offended …but I do recognize innuendos.

And yup …those words do apply to me.

Following are statements by Jesus that shows he did not know everything…There are several statements throughout the gospels (and the epistles) that show Jesus walked as a man. …prior to His resurrection.

Mar 13:32 & Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.

Jhn 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.


These prophecy were stated by Jesus …. Did thy come to pass? No ….. Will they come to pass? absolutely.

Mat 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Mat 24:34 … Mar 13:30 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

It was no secret that the gentiles would be blessed under Abraham as you mentioned in Jhn 10:16….but the How…was a secret …of which both the prophets and the angels desired to see.

1Pe 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

1Pe 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

1Pe 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.


Mystery (secret) hidden with God

1Co 2:6 - 8


Mystery (secret) Given to Paul

Eph 3:2-6

Rom 16:25-27

Col 1:25&26

None of which makes void what I also have quoted of the scriptures. The point is not that it is one or the other, but rather that each must be rightly divided, and yet reconciled one to the other. In which case, there was no surprise to the Word become flesh--nor could there be, for it is His story and revelation; except that the times were according to the Father and His drawing the chosen to Himself.

I should probably not get into the great apostacy that you speak of, which is a misrepresentation of the word apostasia from the verb form aphistēmi…. The definition is a distortion of the word brought about through the allegorical (tropological) interpretation of the Word of God. Although it probably started with Origen it continued throughout the Middle Ages ….….. Luther and others put the brakes on it.

No doubt there will be those who trip out …. walk away…. There have been plenty of times throughout the Bible of those who tripped out..Good heck …even before Paul’s death All (with distinction) of Asia had lost sight of the mystery and turned away from Paul’s teachings.
But the great apostacy referenced from 2Th 2:3 is a perversion of the word and the context.

Indeed, regardless of the wording, it is not that some will walk away, but the spirit of antiChrist was already at work beginning at that generation to whom Christ spoke.

As for thinking that perversions come as a result of being allegorical--that is part of the "lie"--as the parables and much of Jesus' teachings, saying "The kingdom of heaven is like..." were that very thing. Even we being created in the image of God are the substance of allegory made manifest.

 

[ScottA]

Hi Scott,

So are you telling me that they had to `endure to the end` to be saved? (Matt. 10: 22) Which disciples `endured to the end?`

I am not sure why you are referring to that passage--but no, that is not what I am telling you. What I have been doing with this tread is allowing anyone who is willing to do their own math, to discover that Jesus' return is not according to those "evil servants" who say "My master is delaying his coming", but rather to see the truth.

As for "enduring to the end"--all who come to Christ endure to the end--for, by name, He is the End.

 

[Marilyn C]

I am not sure why you are referring to that passage--but no, that is not what I am telling you. What I have been doing with this tread is allowing anyone who is willing to do their own math, to discover that Jesus' return is not according to those "evil servants" who say "My master is delaying his coming", but rather to see the truth.

As for "enduring to the end"--all who come to Christ endure to the end--for, by name, He is the End.

`Enduring to the end,` is part of the scripture you have focussed on. And the `end` in that context is NOT the Lord for He always tells us when it is, `I AM THE BEGINNING AND THE END.` (Rev. 22: 13)

Otherwise, every time the word `end` is mentioned would not make sense.

 

[Marty fox]

`Enduring to the end,` is part of the scripture you have focussed on. And the `end` in that context is NOT the Lord for He always tells us when it is, `I AM THE BEGINNING AND THE END.` (Rev. 22: 13)

Otherwise, every time the word `end` is mentioned would not make sense.

The end in this case means until death.

 

[Marilyn C]

The end in this case means until death.

Not so. The `end` means the end of the age, this age, and then there is an age to follow.

`Christ ...far above all....not only in this age but also in that which is to come.` (Eph. 1: 21)

See further on in Matt. 10: 25 where the Lord is talking about the master and those of His household. That is Israel, not just the 12 disciples.

 

[ScottA]

`Enduring to the end,` is part of the scripture you have focussed on. And the `end` in that context is NOT the Lord for He always tells us when it is, `I AM THE BEGINNING AND THE END.` (Rev. 22: 13)

Otherwise, every time the word `end` is mentioned would not make sense.

The scriptures must be spiritually discerned. So, yes, the connection must be made to Christ regarding much of what is written--indeed all of scripture points to Him. "For He says: “In an acceptable time I have heard you, And in the day of salvation I have helped you.” Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation." 2 Corinthians 6:2

 

[Tommy Cool]

each must be rightly divided, and yet reconciled one to the other.

I have no idea what you mean by that...rightly dividing is seeing how it fits ...reconciling seems like you are you are the one making excuses for what doesn't fit.
I make that statement because I still have no idea what you believe...I kind of think maybe you are trying to mesh the gospel period with the epistles (the church of the bride with the church of the body) I am deducing that based on what you call the lie or part of the lie with things you don't agree with ....but you never disclose why.

ndeed, regardless of the wording, it is not that some will walk away, but the spirit of antiChrist was already at work beginning at that generation to whom Christ spoke.

the anti-Christ is literally "disanointed" and they have been around since the times of Christ ....they are unbelievers "disanointed" ...and unbelievers don't fall away ....you can't fall away from something you do not belong to.

As for thinking that perversions come as a result of being allegorical--that is part of the "lie"--as the parables and much of Jesus' teachings, saying "The kingdom of heaven is like..." were that very thing. Even we being created in the image of God are the substance of allegory made manifest.

There are orientalism’s and figure of speech (214 types used in the Bible) and parable’s which I guess could be a variation of that would equate to allegory(ish). But that is not what I am speaking about. In layman’s terms the allegory method was this:

The hierarchy would determine what the meaning of scripture was…. and using their interpretation teach through allegory to the common (ignorant) person. Whereas with parables, if Jesus gave us the interpretation …we can understand it. With orientalism’s and idioms those can be understood only in light of the times and customs of when they were used.
The Allegorical method was used primarily to keep people in subjection… To us that might sound stupid with everything we have available and informational access we have ….it is almost hard to even conceive ….But those in the middle ages this is what they were taught…. and you can’t go beyond what you know.

Additionally …. the allegorical method of interpretation is that it seeks to find an allegorical interpretation for every passage of Scripture. Interpreters who allegorize are creative, with no control based in the text itself. …I believe God frowns on that 2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

Here is an example of Algological teaching:

Adam is a type of Christ because Adam was put to sleep, his side was opened—he was wounded and his blood was shed—and from that wound his bride was taken. In the same way, Christ died, had His side pierced, and from that ordeal His Bride, the church, is produced. Just as Adam said that Eve was bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh (2:23 Genesis ), so the church is the body, flesh, and bone of Christ (5:30 Ephesians) My note: “of his flesh, and of his bones” in 5:30 Eph were added (not by me) …not in any critical Greek text.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Okay...sounds like the consensus is that the apostles did indeed make it out of or through the cities of Israel after being sent by Jesus.

So then...since Jesus had come already, what do you make of this passage?

Matthew 10:23
When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

​

@Truth7t7

I think that many Christians jump to conclusions when they hear "the Son of Man comes." Since eschatology is a big topic, it is usually thought that the coming of the Son of Man relates back to Dan 7, where the Son of Man comes down from heaven at the end of the age to establish God's Kingdom on earth.

But perhaps Jesus knows that he is the "Son of Man," and is going from city to city, from town to town, bringing his Gospel of the Kingdom. He was saying he won't be able to complete this testimony to Israel, that judgment is coming to them, that the Kingdom is to be passed on to Gentiles.

So he was commissioning his apostles to finish his testimony in Israel for him, since he was soon to die. But afterwards, his apostles would not only finish preaching in all parts of Israel but they would also obey Jesus' command to "go into all nations."

 

[Marty fox]

Not so. The `end` means the end of the age, this age, and then there is an age to follow.

`Christ ...far above all....not only in this age but also in that which is to come.` (Eph. 1: 21)

See further on in Matt. 10: 25 where the Lord is talking about the master and those of His household. That is Israel, not just the 12 disciples.

I was meaning enduring to the end

Matthew 24:13
But the one who endures to the end will be saved.