Personal Growth

[Riven]

Jesus has a God. He is a prophet, a servant - the suffering servant Isaiah speaks about - of his God.

Jesus knows that he is not his God and that there is no God besides his God. Everything else in scripture is idols.

What about when he stands before the people and says, "Before Abraham, I am."?

The resurrection has been proven.

It has not been proven. If it were, there would be no need for faith.

Jesus believes what is written in Genesis. The story of Jesus isn’t taken on blind faith. There were witnesses of the life, death, resurrection and assumption of Jesus. Their testimony is preserved in the NT scriptures. Atheists generally don’t believe the testimony or see it as evidence. Those who do become Christians.

I agree. The thing is, why does he believe it if it's written by fallible human beings and is therefore, subject to error? For example, you don't see the dinosaurs mentioned in the Genesis creation. The most likely explanation is that the writers did not know these creatures had ever existed.

I believe Jesus turned water into wine because of the testimony concerning the event recorded in scritpture. Why do you believe that he turned water into wine? If you believe he did, why don’t you believe the testimony about all of the other things that he did?

I can't believe that he turned water into wine or didn't because I didn't witness it. Anyone can write whatever they want in a book. Especially if it was written decades after the event supposedly took place.

The evidence is in the testimony contained in scripture.

But how is it evidence? If I wrote a book and claimed to levitate or something, you wouldn't say it's evidence that I actually levitated. You would want to see me do it before you believed me.

They generally express faith in science. Faith, in and of itself, isn’t a huge issue. I take your point though that faith in God and in the Messiah is a “dog meet brussel sprouts” affair with them.

Faith in the scientific method, yes. But science itself is all about evidence that supports a theory. Its not like Darwin found a two thousand year old book that contained the secrets of evolution. There was a lot more work involved.

 

[Matthias]

What about when he stands before the people and says, "Before Abraham, I am."?

He is saying to them that he is the Messiah. That the Messiah himself has a God is certain; he says that he does and acts in ways that show that he does. It’s also certain that his God is none other than Yahweh, the God of Abraham. There is no God besides his God. Everything else is idolatry.

It has not been proven. If it were, there would be no need for faith.

The apostles (and others) saw him, touched him, spoke with him, ate with him, were taught by him following his death, burial and resurrection. They didn’t just have faith that he was resurrected. They new it for a fact. The Christian faith is based, in large part, on believing them.

I agree. The thing is, why does he believe it if it's written by fallible human beings and is therefore, subject to error? For example, you don't see the dinosaurs mentioned in the Genesis creation. The most likely explanation is that the writers did not know these creatures had ever existed.

He believed it was written by Moses and that Moses is a prophet of his God. Prophets are inspired by God.

I can't believe that he turned water into wine or didn't because I didn't witness it.

Others witnessed it.

Anyone can write whatever they want in a book. Especially if it was written decades after the event supposedly took place.

Events happen every day that we don’t witness. It has been that way since the day since man was created by God. If we have to witness everything in person in order to believe it then we can’t believe very much of anything.

Your member profile says that you are 36 years old. You didn’t witness anything before you were brought into existence. Would you say that you cannot believe anything that happened 37 or more years ago?

But how is it evidence? If I wrote a book and claimed to levitate or something, you wouldn't say it's evidence that I actually levitated. You would want to see me do it before you believed me.

It would be your personal testimony, and your personal testimony is evidence. Is it the only evidence? I would want to know if there is any additional evidence? Did someone else see you do it? How many saw you do it? When did they see you do it? Where did they see you do it? Why did they see you do it? How many times did they see you do it? Are there others who didn’t see you do it but spoke to people who said they did? Are there people who saw you do it but thought it was a trick; that you didn’t actually do it? Who are they? What us their stake in the experience? Were there any news reports about your action? What are they; what do they say?

Will you arrange for me to see you do it in person? What if something were to happen to you before I was able to see you do it? Would it be reasonable for me to conclude that it never happened? Unless I see your dead body and attend your funeral, can I not believe you are dead? Even if I attended your graveside service, could I not believe you are in the casket without insisting that the casket be open as they lower it into the ground? Must I wait until the casket is covered with soil - and how long must I wait after it is? - to know that it is true that you are dead? If I’m unable to do any of that but I read your obituary, is there reason for me to believe that it cannot be known to have happened?

I don’t have to see you do it in order to believe that you did.

Faith in the scientific method, yes. But science itself is all about evidence that supports a theory. Its not like Darwin found a two thousand year old book that contained the secrets of evolution. There was a lot more work involved.

There is no proof that evolution took place. Even if there were, how could you believe it? You didn’t see it happen. Those who believe in evolution do so by faith. They have no hope for their future after they die. Those who believe in Jesus do.

If the bodily resurrection of Jesus didn’t happen, then what?

The apostle Paul - whom you’ve not seen and therefore, apparently, can’t believe existed - wrote, ”If the Messiah has not been raised, then our message means nothing and your faith means nothing.”

You haven’t literally seen the Messiah. If that truly is what it would take for you to believe, then you wouldn’t believe in Jesus of Nazareth.

You / we believe in Jesus of Nazareth because you / we believe the evidence you / we are confronted with in the scriptures. You / we should also believe in him because you / we have our own respective personal experiences with him.

 

[Matthias]

I see that your profile still identifies you as agnostic @Riven. Why hasn’t it been changed?

Has an administrator or moderator denied you the ability to change it? If so, have they told you on what grounds they have not allowed you to? If not, why haven’t you (or they) done it?

Has something changed with you since our conversation on December 24, 2024?

Post in thread 'It's a funny thing...'
It's a funny thing...

 

[Riven]

He is saying to them that he is the Messiah. That the Messiah himself has a God is certain; he says that he does and acts in ways that show that he does. It’s also certain that his God is none other than Yahweh, the God of Abraham. There is no God besides his God. Everything else is idolatry.

Many Christians would disagree and cite the resurrection as proof of his divinity.

The apostles (and others) saw him, touched him, spoke with him, ate with him, were taught by him following his death, burial and resurrection. They didn’t just have faith that he was resurrected. They new it for a fact. The Christian faith is based, in large part, on believing them.

I agree. They had the advantage of having been alive when Jesus walked the earth.

He believed it was written by Moses and that Moses is a prophet of his God. Prophets are inspired by God.

But why wouldn't hey know more than Moses? Obviously Moses didn't know about the existence of dinosaurs either.

Events happen every day that we don’t witness. It has been that way since the day since man was created by God. If we have to witness everything in person in order to believe it then we can’t believe very much of anything.

I think it depends on what the claim is. For example, if I say I went to the store today, you'd probably take my word for it. However, if I say I went to the store and saw it disappear in front of me, you probably wouldn't just take my word for it.

Your member profile says that you are 36 years old. You didn’t witness anything before you were brought into existence. Would you say that you cannot believe anything that happened 37 or more years ago?

It depends. If it's a historical account with some evidence to back it up, I would probably believe it. But if it's just words written down in a book, I would be skeptical.

It would be your personal testimony, and your personal testimony is evidence. Is it the only evidence? I would want to know if there is any additional evidence? Did someone else see you do it? How many saw you do it? When did they see you do it? Where did they see you do it? Why did they see you do it? How many times did they see you do it? Are there others who didn’t see you do it but spoke to people who said they did? Are there people who saw you do it but thought it was a trick; that you didn’t actually do it? Who are they? What us their stake in the experience? Were there any news reports about your action? What are they; what do they say?

Will you arrange for me to see you do it in person? What if something were to happen to you before I was able to see you do it? Would it be reasonable for me to conclude that it never happened? Unless I see your dead body and attend your funeral, can I not believe you are dead? Even if I attended your graveside service, could I not believe you are in the casket without insisting that the casket be open as they lower it into the ground? Must I wait until the casket is covered with soil - and how long must I wait after it is? - to know that it is true that you are dead? If I’m unable to do any of that but I read your obituary, is there reason for me to believe that it cannot be known to have happened?

I don’t have to see you do it in order to believe that you did.

But based on what you've written here, you wouldn't just take my word for it.

There is no proof that evolution took place. Even if there were, how could you believe it? You didn’t see it happen. Those who believe in evolution do so by faith. They have no hope for their future after they die. Those who believe in Jesus do.

There is evidence today. There wasn't in Darwin's time. A majority of Christians in the world today accept evolution as a biological fact. It doesn't mean God doesn't exist. But it does mean that the bible is probably wrong about a few things.

If the bodily resurrection of Jesus didn’t happen, then what?

The apostle Paul - whom you’ve not seen and therefore, apparently, can’t believe existed - wrote, ”If the Messiah has not been raised, then our message means nothing and your faith means nothing.”

Why would Paul even say that if he believed in what he had seen?

You haven’t literally seen the Messiah. If that truly is what it would take for you to believe, then you wouldn’t believe in Jesus of Nazareth.

I think that's a good point. However, I would argue that it's easier to believe that someone existed than it is that they are also God or the son of God.

 

[Matthias]

Many Christians would disagree …

What about you?

”… go to my brethren and say to them, ‘I ascend to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.’” - Jesus, John 20:17

Listening to what Jesus says here, is there any doubt in your mind that Jesus himself has a God?

… and cite the resurrection as proof of his divinity.

“But God raised him up again, putting and end to the agony of death … This Jesus God raised up again …” - Peter, Acts 2:24, 32

“Blessed be the God and Father of our lord Jesus Messiah, who according to his great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Messiah from the dead.” - Peter, 1 Peter 1:3

”But God raised him from the dead.” - Peter, Acts 13:30

Who is this God who raised Jesus, the Messiah, the Son of God from the dead?

P.S.

I’ll come back to your other comments later.

 

[Matthias]

 

[Riven]

I see that your profile still identifies you as agnostic @Riven. Why hasn’t it been changed?

Has an administrator or moderator denied you the ability to change it? If so, have they told you on what grounds they have not allowed you to? If not, why haven’t you (or they) done it?

They haven't told me anything.

Has something changed with you since our conversation on December 24, 2024?

Post in thread 'It's a funny thing...'
It's a funny thing...

Not really. It's always sort of an on again, off again, kind of thing. Some days, I believe in it. Other days, I absolutely do not. It makes it very difficult to lay down roots, so to speak.

 

[Matthias]

They haven't told me anything.


Not really. It's always sort of an on again, off again, kind of thing. Some days, I believe in it. Other days, I absolutely do not. It makes it very difficult to lay down roots, so to speak.

Thanks for the update. Your mentioning of roots takes us to Jesus’ evangelization / immortality program, the parable of the sower (Matthew 13, Mark 4, Luke 8). Have you read it?

 

[Riven]

Thanks for the update. Your mentioning of roots takes us to Jesus’ evangelization / immortality program, the parable of the sower (Matthew 13, Mark 4, Luke 8). Have you read it?

I have not.

 

[Matthias]

I agree. They had the advantage of having been alive when Jesus walked the earth.

Yes. They believed it because they personally experienced it. That is an advantage that they have over us. We weren’t there to experience it. I don’t have any difficulty believing them as they describe their experience. Why do you?

 

[Matthias]

But why wouldn't hey know more than Moses? Obviously Moses didn't know about the existence of dinosaurs either.

Both are prophets of God; neither are paleontologists. Their concern is saving and leading people.

 

[Matthias]

I think it depends on what the claim is.

The claim in the New Testament is that a particular Jewish man is the Messiah, the Son of the living God.

That’s the claim that everyone is called upon to believe or not believe.

I believe.

 

[Riven]

Yes. They believed it because they personally experienced it. That is an advantage that they have over us. We weren’t there to experience it. I don’t have any difficulty believing them as they describe their experience. Why do you?

Because I was raised to not believe in such things. It's not like flipping a switch. Like Rambo one said, "you can't just turn it off".

Both are prophets of God; neither are paleontologists. Their concern is saving and leading people.

Sure. But this is the word of God we're talking about here. It should be accurate.

 

[Matthias]

Because I was raised to not believe in such things. It's not like flipping a switch. Like Rambo one said, "you can't just turn it off".

There is a proverb in the Bible about children not departing from the way they are raised when they grow up (Proverbs 22:6). It’s a general principle, not a rule. We can depart from the way we were raised. It may not be easy but it can be done.

Sure. But this is the word of God we're talking about here. It should be accurate.

The prophets of God are accurate in regard to what they talk about.

 

[Matthias]

What about you?

”… go to my brethren and say to them, ‘I ascend to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God.’” - Jesus, John 20:17

Listening to what Jesus says here, is there any doubt in your mind that Jesus himself has a God?



“But God raised him up again, putting and end to the agony of death … This Jesus God raised up again …” - Peter, Acts 2:24, 32

“Blessed be the God and Father of our lord Jesus Messiah, who according to his great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Messiah from the dead.” - Peter, 1 Peter 1:3

”But God raised him from the dead.” - Peter, Acts 13:30

Who is this God who raised Jesus, the Messiah, the Son of God from the dead?

Does it not matter to you that the Messiah himself has a God @Riven?

Abraham has a God -> Yahweh

Moses has a God -> Yahweh

Jesus has a God -> Yahweh

Yahweh doesn’t have God; he is the one true God.

 

[Matthias]

A majority of Christians in the world today accept evolution as a biological fact.

Some do but what is the evidence that a majority do? What is your support for this?

In my experience, the majority of Christians do not. Even if it were true that a majority do, that isn’t sufficient to establish that God created through an evolutionary process.

It doesn't mean God doesn't exist. But it does mean that the bible is probably wrong about a few things.

If a Christian is telling you that “the Bible is probably wrong about a few things” that’s a red flag.

To use a military metaphor, that’s DEFCON 1 serious.

 

[Matthias]

Why would Paul even say that if he believed in what he had seen?

Paul is stressing the importance of what was seen and experienced. It is of first importance, not the only thing of importance. If (a conditional statement) Jesus of Nazareth has not been bodily resurrected from the dead then forget him. Forget everything that he said and everything that he did. Forget everything that is said about him in the New Testament. Why? Because if he is still dead then he isn’t the Messiah.

There is no Christianity without a dead man made alive again.

We have to decide on the issue of resurrection. If it doesn’t stand, then Christianity falls. Paul knew that. He believed that God vindicated Jesus by resurrecting him from the dead to immortal life.

 

[Matthias]

I think that's a good point. However, I would argue that it's easier to believe that someone existed than it is that they are also God or the son of God.

The New Testament assertion is not just that he existed.

Jesus of Nazareth is a man attested by God.

He is the Messiah, the Son of God. He existed, he exists, he will exist forever.

Believe God or don’t believe God. Those are our options.

 

[Matthias]

There is evidence today. There wasn't in Darwin's time. A majority of Christians in the world today accept evolution as a biological fact. It doesn't mean God doesn't exist. But it does mean that the bible is probably wrong about a few things.

I responded to this comment of yours yesterday. Today in my X / Twitter “For you” feed this appeared:

“You can’t mix evolution and the Bible.”

x.com

x.com

Answers in Genesis is a trinitarian ministry that you might want to consider looking into.

 

[Riven]

I responded to this comment of yours yesterday. Today in my X / Twitter “For you” feed this appeared:

“You can’t mix evolution and the Bible.”

x.com

x.com

Answers in Genesis is a trinitarian ministry that you might want to consider looking into.

Isn't that organization run by the doofus that thinks humans and dinosaurs lived together? He's right though. If you take Genesis literally, there's no room for evolution.