Personal Growth

[2bme]

1: Being educated
2: To learn a skill set
3: To make money
4: To use in a shopping mall
5: To buy item's
6: To represent our moral character
Is a seriously flawed ideology for personal growth.

How does this chain of living equate to real character building, it just doesn't. There's no need to change any type of personal problems or flaws we may have under this living chain.

 

[Matthias]

There is, however, for those who repent, real change and personal growth brought about in life under the living God.

 

[Windmill Charge]

1: Being educated
2: To learn a skill set
3: To make money
4: To use in a shopping mall
5: To buy item's
6: To represent our moral character
Is a seriously flawed ideology for personal growth.

How does this chain of living equate to real character building, it just doesn't. There's no need to change any type of personal problems or flaws we may have under this living chain.

You've missed out socialising and serving. Two aspects of living that cause us to look beyond ourselves.
Then there is morality, learning about right and wrong, is it merely a matter of force by society or is there a ' higher power ' behind morality?

The biggest thing missing is religion, it's strange how non religious people worship their pop stars, sports teams, even politicians without realising that is what th are doing and they say they don't know about God.

Where did the universe come from? MARIA in the Sound of Music sings, " Nothing comes from nothing, nothing ever did" yes a silly line, with a tremendous truth.
What caused the universe? Simple answer a super natural entity, could that be God?

Now that is the really important question?

 

[Matthias]

Where did the universe come from? …

The universe came from the mind of the creator.

What caused the universe?

The creator speaking it, commanding it, into existence.

The pathway from notional / ideal preexistence to literal existence.

Simple answer a super natural entity, could that be God?

It could only be God.

Now that is the really important question?

It is an important question, the fundamental question, to begin with.

 

[Riven]

I'm often amazed at how so many people go through life not questioning the nature of reality, and their own existence. I see this on both sides of the spiritual divide. Believers and non-believers alike.

I was watching a video earlier. It was showing people digging up artifacts from WW2. They discovered an old German machine gun nest, and a German soldier with his helmet still on and everything. I look at the skeleton and think, is this it? Is this really everyone's fate?

I suppose what's disturbing is the idea that that skeleton used to be a breathing, walking, talking human being. One with his own desires, personality, ambition, etc. All of that reduced to... nothing. Just nothing.

 

[Matthias]

I'm often amazed at how so many people go through life not questioning the nature of reality, and their own existence. I see this on both sides of the spiritual divide. Believers and non-believers alike.

I was watching a video earlier. It was showing people digging up artifacts from WW2. They discovered an old German machine gun nest, and a German soldier with his helmet still on and everything. I look at the skeleton and think, is this it? Is this really everyone's fate?

I suppose what's disturbing is the idea that that skeleton used to be a breathing, walking, talking human being. One with his own desires, personality, ambition, etc. All of that reduced to... nothing. Just nothing.

It’s everyone’s fate to die.

The dead German soldier from your video will be resurrected to life. Briefly or forever is the only question, and that will be decided by the Messiah.

 

[Riven]

It’s everyone’s fate to die.

The dead German soldier from your video will be resurrected to life. Briefly or forever is the only question, and that will be decided by the Messiah.

You believe everyone is still dead and waiting for judgment? There are no souls in heaven or hell currently?

 

[Matthias]

You believe everyone is still dead and waiting for judgment? There are no souls in heaven or hell currently?

Yes, but with one exception. I believe the Messiah died and was bodily resurrected back to life three days later. He is in heaven now but will return to the earth at some point in the future.

 

[Riven]

Yes, but with one exception. I believe the Messiah died and was bodily resurrected back to life three days later. He is in heaven now but will return to the earth at some point in the future.

Well then there's really no difference between the atheist point of view on death and yours. Except that you believe the Messish will return one day to bring all of these dead people back to life.

What if he doesn't? He hasn't so far. I guess we all just remain dead, eh?

 

[Matthias]

Well then there's really no difference between the atheist point of view on death and yours. Except that you believe the Messish will return one day to bring all of these dead people back to life.

That’s a good observation. The atheist point of view bypasses the judgement; mine doesn’t. The atheist viewpoint supposes that there is no judgement on evil and good. Death is simply and finally the cessation of life.

The dead German soldier in your video is lifeless. Atheism considers the book closed on him. I don’t.

Atheism denies the second death; it sees only the first death. I see and affirm the reality of both the first death and the second death.

What if he doesn't?

What if he does what the Bible say he will do? I believe that he will. Atheism denies that he will.

He hasn't so far.

That’s right. I agree with the atheists that he hasn’t.

I guess we all just remain dead, eh?

Yes.

Me, until he returns. The atheist, until a thousand years after he returns.

The hope of the atheist is that he doesn’t return. My hope is grounded in the conviction that he will return; that it’s only a matter of time before he does.

 

[Behold]

I suppose what's disturbing is the idea that that skeleton used to be a breathing, walking, talking human being. One with his own desires, personality, ambition, etc. All of that reduced to... nothing. Just nothing.

"you have to believe in something, or you'll fall for anything".

is also..

"if you dont know where you are going, then any road will take you there"..

 

[Riven]

The dead German soldier in your video is lifeless. Atheism considers the book closed on him. I don’t.

Because it would appear that the book is closed on him. As much as it appears that it is closed on the dinosaurs. The atheist is simply accepting what he's seeing with his own eyes.

Atheism denies the second death; it sees only the first death. I see and affirm the reality of both the first death and the second death.

Only because there is no evidence of a second death.

What if he does what the Bible say he will do? I believe that he will. Atheism denies that he will.

Then most of the world will be in for a surprise. But what's more likely? That a supernatural event will occur in the future, involving the return of Christ, or that life will carry on as usual?

The hope of the atheist is that he doesn’t return.

Why? You think they would prefer to remain dead forever?

 

[Matthias]

Because it would appear that the book is closed on him. As much as it appears that it is closed on the dinosaurs. The atheist is simply accepting what he's seeing with his own eyes.

The eyes of the atheist haven’t deceived him. The German soldier is dead. There is no life in him.

Only because there is no evidence of a second death.

How can there be evidence of something which will only happen in the future?

Then most of the world will be in for a surprise.

That’s right.

But what's more likely? That a supernatural event will occur in the future, involving the return of Christ, or that life will carry on as usual?

Jesus was resurrected from the grave. What’s more likely to me is that he is the guarantee that there will be others.

Why? You think they would prefer to remain dead forever?

Don’t they prefer to remain dead forever? They have rejected the only remedy for coming back to life.

 

[Riven]

The eyes of the atheist haven’t deceived him. The German soldier is dead. There is no life in him.

But if we remain dead, regardless of what we believe when we're alive, then where did his soul go? Most Christians I've spoken with over the years believe we either go to heaven or hell upon death.

How can there be evidence of something which will only happen in the future?

There can't be. But the bible makes many claims about what will happen in the future. Do you think these claims should be counted as evidence, or are they simply predictions?

Jesus was resurrected from the grave. What’s more likely to me is that he is the guarantee that there will be others.

Perhaps. But there have been many people over the years that claimed that they knew the year in which Christ would return, only to be wrong. You can't blame people for becoming skeptical or pessimistic about the whole thing.

Don’t they prefer to remain dead forever? They have rejected the only remedy for coming back to life.

Who in their right mind would prefer to remain dead forever? I've dealt with nihilism, and let me tell you, it gets really dark. You do end up in that place eventually. But you don't stay there. Eventually your survival instincts kick in and you come step away from gazing into the abyss.

So, no... I think the atheists want eternal life as you. Maybe even more. It's the requirements of achieving eternal life that they struggle with.

 

[Matthias]

But if we remain dead, regardless of what we believe when we're alive, then where did his soul go?

He was a living soul. He is a dead soul. Souls are mortal.

Most Christians I've spoken with over the years believe we either go to heaven or hell upon death.

It is the popular and prevailing view in Christianity. I’ve had the same experience in that regard as you have.

There can't be. But the bible makes many claims about what will happen in the future. Do you think these claims should be counted as evidence, or are they simply predictions?

They are prophecies, not evidence. The fulfilled prophecies about Jesus are evidence.

Perhaps. But there have been many people over the years that claimed that they knew the year in which Christ would return, only to be wrong.

Yes. Date setting is a proven disaster. Unless God has told Jesus since his assumption to heaven, only God himself knows the date when the Messiah will return.

You can't blame people for becoming skeptical or pessimistic about the whole thing.

I understand the skepticism / pessimism but I do blame them for not believing Jesus and the apostles. They have the right not to believe and they have exercised that right.

Who in their right mind would prefer to remain dead forever?

I don’t think atheists are in their mind. Who in their right mind wouldn’t believe the offered solution? Atheists have chosen certain death.

I’m standing in front of a bridge that has collapsed and I’m doing everything within my power and ability to warn people that the bridge is out and if they don’t stop they are going to drive into the chasm. The cars speed on past and into the hole they go.

I've dealt with nihilism, and let me tell you, it gets really dark. You do end up in that place eventually. But you don't stay there. Eventually your survival instincts kick in and you come step away from gazing into the abyss.

You know that there is no hope in nihilism. There is no hope for salvation in atheism. Atheists are watching the sand run out of the hour glass and are eating, drinking and making merry until the last grain drops. I would do the same thing if I didn’t believe in the resurrection of the Messiah.

So, no... I think the atheists want eternal life as you. Maybe even more.

I hope you’re right. I have what they need -> the gospel of the kingdom that Jesus and the apostles preached.

It's the requirements of achieving eternal life that they struggle with.

The requirements are simple -> trust and obey Jesus.

They may want it, as you suggest, but they want something else more. Trusting and obeying Jesus is taking a backseat to whatever else it is that they’re pursuing.

 

[Riven]

He was a living soul. He is a dead soul. Souls are mortal.

So... every soul dies upon physical death? Why do you believe that?

It is the popular and prevailing view in Christianity. I’ve had the same experience in that regard as you have.

But you don't believe it.

They are prophecies, not evidence. The fulfilled prophecies about Jesus are evidence.

I'll admit, I'm not well versed in the prophecies about Jesus. It's something I have to study.

Yes. Date setting is a proven disaster. Unless God has told Jesus since his assumption to heaven, only God himself knows the date when the Messiah will return.

But how could Jesus not know if he is God? He clearly knew things that others did not while he walked the earth.

I understand the skepticism / pessimism but I do blame them for not believing Jesus and the apostles. They have the right not to believe and they have exercised that right.

You blame them for not having faith in something that has yet to be proven? You have to understand the atheist mindset. It is very much based in the senses. What they can taste, touch, hear, see, etc. They like science because there is evidence to support the theories.

I don’t think atheists are in their mind. Who in their right mind wouldn’t believe the offered solution? Atheists have chosen certain death.

Ironically, that's how most of them feel about people like you. "Who in their right mind would believe in something like what the gospels preach?" To that end, i can't blame them. The story of Genesis alone is a lot to take on faith, let alone the story of Jesus.

I’m standing in front of a bridge that has collapsed and I’m doing everything within my power and ability to warn people that the bridge is out and if they don’t stop they are going to drive into the chasm. The cars speed on past and into the hole they go.

It's not quite the same. In what we have been discussing, both you and the atheists do not see a collapsed bridge. You see a bridge that's probably going to collapse, or isn't real. Whereas the atheists see the bridge as intact, trust what they're seeing, and probably think you're belief that they are driving into a giant chasm, to be a little weird.

You know that there is no hope in nihilism. There is no hope for salvation in atheism. Atheists are watching the sand run out of the hour glass and are eating, drinking and making merry until the last grain drops. I would do the same thing if I didn’t believe in the resurrection of the Messiah.

Agreed. I mean, Jesus turned water into wine, so...

I hope you’re right. I have what they need -> the gospel of the kingdom that Jesus and the apostles preached.

The requirements are simple -> trust and obey Jesus.

But it's not simple. If it were, everyone would believe it. If you grew up in it, sure. But if you didn't, suddenly believing in miracles, prophecies, and such, is like trying to learn a foreign language.

They may want it, as you suggest, but they want something else more. Trusting and obeying Jesus is taking a backseat to whatever else it is that they’re pursuing.

They want it, but they don't want to have to take it on faith. They don't like faith. They prefer evidence as the foundation for their beliefs and worldview. So introducing faith to them is a little like introducing brussel sprouts to a dog. :/

 

[Matthias]

So... every soul dies upon physical death? Why do you believe that?

It’s the teaching of the Hebrew Bible.

But you don't believe it.

That’s right. I’m a primitive Christian. There are Christians who aren’t primitive Christians who still believe on this issue as I do.

I'll admit, I'm not well versed in the prophecies about Jesus. It's something I have to study.

My hope is that you will.

But how could Jesus not know if he is God? He clearly knew things that others did not while he walked the earth.

Jesus has a God. He is a prophet, a servant - the suffering servant Isaiah speaks about - of his God.

Jesus knows that he is not his God and that there is no God besides his God. Everything else in scripture is idols.

You blame them for not having faith in something that has yet to be proven?

The resurrection has been proven.

You have to understand the atheist mindset. It is very much based in the senses. What they can taste, touch, hear, see, etc. They like science because there is evidence to support the theories.

I agree.

Ironically, that's how most of them feel about people like you. "Who in their right mind would believe in something like what the gospels preach?"

I’m fine with atheists feeling that way about me.

To that end, i can't blame them. The story of Genesis alone is a lot to take on faith, let alone the story of Jesus.

Jesus believes what is written in Genesis. The story of Jesus isn’t taken on blind faith. There were witnesses of the life, death, resurrection and assumption of Jesus. Their testimony is preserved in the NT scriptures. Atheists generally don’t believe the testimony or see it as evidence. Those who do become Christians.

It's not quite the same. In what we have been discussing, both you and the atheists do not see a collapsed bridge. You see a bridge that's probably going to collapse, or isn't real.

In the analogy I used, I see that the bridge has collapsed. The atheist doesn’t see the bridge has collapsed. The atheist ignoring the warning won’t see that that the bridge was out in his or her natural lifetime.

Whereas the atheists see the bridge as intact, trust what they're seeing, and probably think you're belief that they are driving into a giant chasm, to be a little weird.

Crash on, unbelieving atheists. What they think about my belief is out of my control, as it should be.

Agreed. I mean, Jesus turned water into wine, so...

I believe Jesus turned water into wine because of the testimony concerning the event recorded in scritpture. Why do you believe that he turned water into wine? If you believe he did, why don’t you believe the testimony about all of the other things that he did?

But it's not simple. If it were, everyone would believe it.

Jesus’ parable of the sower explains why not everyone believes it.

If you grew up in it, sure.

I left the Christianity I grew up in.

But if you didn't, suddenly believing in miracles, prophecies, and such, is like trying to learn a foreign language.

I don’t disagree with that. It’s difficult to break away from whatever it was that we were raised in.

They want it, but they don't want to have to take it on faith. They don't like faith.

Then they can’t have it.

They prefer evidence as the foundation for their beliefs and worldview.

The evidence is in the testimony contained in scripture.

The evidence should also be found in the lives of believers. However, there exist counterfeit believers. It’s going to be difficult for an atheist discern the genuine from the counterfeit. I think this is a major factor in hesitancy of atheists to become believers. My advice to them would be to keep their eyes on Jesus, rather than on those who self-identify as his followers.

So introducing faith to them is a little like introducing brussel sprouts to a dog. :/

They generally express faith in science. Faith, in and of itself, isn’t a huge issue. I take your point though that faith in God and in the Messiah is a “dog meet brussel sprouts” affair with them.

 

[DigitalNomad]

The meaning of personal growth differs person to person. For a believer, it could mean connecting with God and understanding His grace. For a very materialist individual, personal growth could mean building skills and knowledge that would help them earn better and live a comfortable life. For me personal growth is being able to understand who I am and what is the purpose of my life.

 

[NotTheRock]

For me personal growth is being able to understand who I am and what is the purpose of my life.

Welcome! I believe that the purpose of our lives is to become one with our creator. I believe that God put us here to experience good and evil, to be tested, and to learn that following God through his son, Jesus, is the best path. I believe that, in the end, you, me, and ALL who ever existed will be in God's Kingdom.

 

[Matthias]

The meaning of personal growth differs person to person. For a believer, it could mean connecting with God and understanding His grace. For a very materialist individual, personal growth could mean building skills and knowledge that would help them earn better and live a comfortable life. For me personal growth is being able to understand who I am and what is the purpose of my life.

Welcome to the forum.

Who, or what, is your guide in developing your understanding? What is the purpose of your life?