Open Debate Challenge on My Defending the KJV as the Perfect Word for Today in English

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Grailhunter

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So there is no such thing as "the Septuagint". It's a myth.

Ok, so called "LXX" (meaning Seventy, 70 in Roman Numerals, L=50, X=10, X=10), and yet according tot te 'Legend"/"myth" of the "Letter of Aristeas" there were "72" scholars, not "70". No one knows why it is not "LXXII" (72, Seventy-Two) rather than "LXX". They assume, but no substantial evidence is ever provided. Instead it is all subjective.

The so called “Septuagint” [LXX., meaning “Seventy” in Roman numerals (L=50, X=10, so 50+10+10=70)], really being “septuaginta (plural, with differing translations)” of Origen's Hexapla, Theodotion (6th column), Aquila of Sinope, & Symmachus are really from the sources Vaticanus and Sinaiticus (both of which are not anywhere near 4th C.).

“The Septuagint” as we presently know it, appears first in the writings of Origen [Hexapla] at near the end of the 2nd century AD., which is why so many of its OT translations, match near word for word, as they are quoted in the NT by various persons. They simply copied the NT Greek texts back into the OT to make it seem like those speakers were directly quoting those passages, and to give a greater credence to their new translation. Historically, there is an item called the “Letter of Aristeas”, which proposes an ancient Greek translation of the Hebrew texts, but it has demonstrated to be based on an unfounded and mostly discredited “legend” or “myth”, and has serious internal consistency problems (ie. 72, vs 70, &c).

“... Most of these fables focus on an infamous “book” 14 called the “Letter of Aristeas” 15 (hereafter called the Letter) and the alleged claims of the Letter’s documentation by authors who wrote before the first coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and in the first few centuries following His first sojourn on earth. 16 The only extant Letter is dated from the eleventh century. In addition, there is no pre-Christian Greek translation of the He-brew Old Testament text, which the Letter alleges, that has been found, in-cluding the texts among the Dead Sea Scrolls. ...” - http://www.theoldpathspublications.com/Downloads/Free/The Septuagint ebook.pdf

“... the story of Aristeas appears comparatively rational. Yet it has long been recognized that much of it is unhistorical, in particular the professed date and nationality of the writer. Its claims to authenticity were demolished by Dr. Hody two centuries ago (De bibliorum textibus originalibus, Oxon., 1705) ...” - The Septuagint, by H. St. J. Thackeray

De bibliorum textibus originalibus - Humfredi Hodii linguae graecae professoris regii et Archidiaconi Oxon. De bibliorum textibus originalibus, versionibus graecis, & latina vulgata libri 4.. : Humphrey Hody : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Other sources, identifying the same - The Septuagint

“... Roman Catholics use the idea that Christ quoted the Septuagint to justly include the Apocrypha in their Bibles. ... Since no Hebrew Old Testament ever included the books of the Apocrypha, the Septuagint is the only source the Catholics have for justifying their canon. Many Reformers and Lutherans wrote at great length refuting the validity of the Septuagint. ...” - http://www.wcbible.org/documents/septuagint.pdf

“... [Page 46] Proponents of the invisible LXX will try to claim that Origen didn't translate the Hebrew into Greek, but only copied the LXX into the second column of his Hexapla. Can this argument be correct? No. If it were, then that would mean that those astute 72 Jewish scholars added the Apocryphal books to their work before they were ever written. (!) Or else, Origen took the liberty to add these spurious writings to God's Holy Word (Rev. 22:18). ...

... Is there ANY Greek manuscript of the Old Testament written BEFORE the time of Christ? Yes. There is one minute scrap dated at 150 BC, the Ryland's Papyrus, #458. It contains Deuteronomy chapters 23-28. No more. No less. If fact, it may be the existence of this fragment that led Eucebius and Philo to assume that the entire Pentatuech had been translated by some scribe in an effort to interest Gentiles in the history of the Jews. ... [page 46]

... [Page 47] If there was an Aristeas, he was faced with two insurmountable problems.

First, how did he ever locate the twelve tribes in order to pick his six representative scholars from each. Having been thoroughly scattered by their many defeats and captivities, the tribal lines of the 12 tribes had long since dissolved into virtual non-existence. It was impossible for anyone to distinctly identify the 12 individual tribes.

Secondly, if the 12 tribes had been identified, they would not have undertaken such a translation for two compelling reasons.

(1) Every Jew knew that the official caretaker of Scripture was the tribe of Levi as evidenced in Deuteronomy 17:18, 31:25,26 and Malachi 2:7. Thus, NO Jew of any of the eleven other tribes would dare to join such a forbidden enterprise. ...” - The Answer Book, By Sam Gipp, Page 46-47, selected portions, emphasis [bold] in original. ...

This is a very abbreviated story of the Septuagint. The Septuagint is the translation of the Hebrew scriptures to Koiné Greek that happened in the BC eras.

The story starts with Ptolemy I Soter (preserver) Satrap of Egypt. (Satrap is a Persian designation for governor but still he was referred to as king) Ptolemy I had served with distinction as a general under Alexander the Great and upon his death in 323 BC he was made ruler of Egypt. He was a person of intellect, a seeker of knowledge and a lover of architect. Shortly after taking the throne as “King of Egypt” in 305 BC, he started the construction of the Great Lighthouse of Alexandria which was the 7th Wonder of the World and the Great Library of Alexandria. The foundation of the Lighthouse was a fortress that took up the whole island of Pharos and this would be where the 72 scholars where housed and worked.

After Ptolemy I Soter dies his son takes the reins as the King of Egypt. Ptolemy II Philadelphus is born around 309 BC. He was a man of great intellect and had a passion for wisdom. Ptolemy II Philadelphus had an interest in preserving literature. The Hebrew scriptures were fading out because very few Jews knew the language. (1) And he wanted them translated for his Library in Alexandra.

Ptolemy II supposedly commissions 72 Jewsh scholars to translate the first five books of Moses, called the Torah. We do not know how long it took to translate the Torah but the whole Old Testament took about 118 years. Starting around 250 BC and finished about 132 BC. But that does not mean that it was being worked on all that time. And since the process of translating the whole Old Testament took about 118 years there is no possibility that the original 72 scholars participated in this. And we don’t know who finished it. The Torah was released before the whole was finished. And the copy process was going on during this time period. It is most likely that the Septuagint translation was what the Apostles were referencing. So that is the abbreviated story of the Septuagint.
 
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RedFan

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I did take part in a study about the nature of God, so I'm well aware of what He can do and what He can't do.
My sincere apologies, I didn't know you took part in a study. Why didn't you say so? Everything you said about God's nature that I suggested was galactically stupid, I will now treat as the gospel truth.
 

Rockerduck

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This is a very abbreviated story of the Septuagint. The Septuagint is the translation of the Hebrew scriptures to Koiné Greek that happened in the BC eras..

The story starts with Ptolemy I Soter (preserver) Satrap of Egypt. (Satrap is a Persian designation for governor but still he was referred to as king) Ptolemy I had served with distinction as a general under Alexander the Great and upon his death in 323 BC he was made ruler of Egypt. He was a person of intellect, a seeker of knowledge and a lover of architect. Shortly after taking the throne as “King of Egypt” in 305 BC, he started the construction of the Great Lighthouse of Alexandria which was the 7th Wonder of the World and the Great Library of Alexandria. The foundation of the Lighthouse was a fortress that took up the whole island of Pharos and this would be where the 72 scholars where housed and worked.

After Ptolemy I Soter dies his son takes the reins as the King of Egypt. Ptolemy II Philadelphus is born around 309 BC. He was a man of great intellect and had a passion for wisdom. Ptolemy II Philadelphus, his interest in translating the Hebrew scriptures to Greek is inline with his own interests, that is to acquire a copy of the Torah for his library in Alexandra.

Ptolemy II supposedly commissions 72 Jewsh scholars to translate the first five books of Moses, called the Torah. We do not know how long it took to translate the Torah but the whole Old Testament took about 118 years. Starting around 250 BC and finished about 132 BC. But that does not mean that it was being worked on all that time. And since the process of translating the whole Old Testament took about 118 years there is no possibility that the original 72 scholars participated in this. And we don’t know who finished it. The Torah was released before the whole was finished. And the copy process was going on during this time period. It is most likely that the Septuagint translation was what the Apostles were referencing. So that is the abbreviated story of the Septuagint.
Any knowledgeable scoop on finding the lost books of the Alexandrian library?
 

Eternally Grateful

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Gods Word said "world" but you trashed God's Word and inserted "whole world" and they you act like you never did it. That shows how depraved you are, to deny the in your face evidence.
World means world. I do not need to add "whole" to the passage. But your calvin brain will not allow you to see it.
You obviously have no regard for anything God said,
Whatever dude. Get over yourself.
because you have created your own doctrine and trashed everything God said. Then you try to deny it, I find that astounding and incomprehensible, that a professing Christian could rubbish Gods Word and insert His word over Gods Word.
Then why do you rubish Gods wor4d. and his character like you do.

Look inside man,, You have some serious anger anbd pride you need to peel off yourself.
I just gave you one example of how you poison Gods Word with your lies, I have many more but you can't even deal with one so there's no point in burying you in a truck load of your lies.
Bring them on, I will shut them down and expose your own lies every time you do it.
 

JLB

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Which verse is the correct translation ?


For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. Hebrews 4:8 NKJV

For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. Hebrews 4:8 KJV





JLB
 

Rockerduck

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Which verse is the correct translation ?


For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. Hebrews 4:8 NKJV

For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. Hebrews 4:8 KJV





JLB
The King James is right. This verse is about God giving Joshua the Israelites to a place of rest.
Paraphrase: For if Jesus had given Joshua and the Israelites rest, then... See Joshua 22:4 KJB
 

Christian Soldier

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My sincere apologies, I didn't know you took part in a study. Why didn't you say so? Everything you said about God's nature that I suggested was galactically stupid, I will now treat as the gospel truth.
Don't worry, it's not your fault for misunderstanding God's nature. The truth is nobody understands Gods nature, His ways are infinitely higher than ours so it's foolish to pretend that we have any hope of ever understanding His nature.

Gods people will spend eternity with Him and we still won't understand His nature, so it's OK not to understand Him.
 

Christian Soldier

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World means world. I do not need to add "whole" to the passage. But your calvin brain will not allow you to see it.

Whatever dude. Get over yourself.

Then why do you rubish Gods wor4d. and his character like you do.

Look inside man,, You have some serious anger anbd pride you need to peel off yourself.

Bring them on, I will shut them down and expose your own lies every time you do it.
As I have stated over and over again, you never ever ever consider any context which verses of scripture were written in. If your private opinion of what the word "world" means in the context of John 3:16 is right, then that makes God a liar and a loser.
If He died for the whole world but He only saved a small number, then He is failed in His mission to save the whole world. You believe in a loser god, and I believe in a winner who never fails. And you believe in an evil god who casts many of those He saved into the lake of fire to be tormented for all eternity. Can you see how evil this god of yours is.

Your Jesus is a very poor salesman, he couldn't convince most that eternal paradise is better that eternal torment in the lake of fire. Now pathetic

 

RedFan

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Don't worry, it's not your fault for misunderstanding God's nature. The truth is nobody understands Gods nature, His ways are infinitely higher than ours so it's foolish to pretend that we have any hope of ever understanding His nature.
Wait a minute! YOU understand at least some of God's nature, because you took part in a study, remember? Here's what you said:
I did take part in a study about the nature of God, so I'm well aware of what He can do and what He can't do. I'm not sure if you believe that the Bible to be Gods Word or not, but I can tell you that God reveal some things about His nature.
 

Christian Soldier

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Wait a minute! YOU understand at least some of God's nature, because you took part in a study, remember? Here's what you said:
Yes that's right we studied His nature for around 3 months and we still didn't cover all of the 0.01% that He revealed to us. We just covered the very basic things and it blew all of our minds, so we're all glad that He didn't reveal 0.02% as that would be impossible for us to get our minds around.

So we were all extremely thankful to God that He had mercy on us and only revealed that 0.01% to us as that alone is enough to study for the rest of our lives and still nor fully process so yeah man there you have it. Be warned, not to try and get into the mind of God, as nobody has ever emerged alive after wanting to dabble in things God deliberately hid from us.
 

RedFan

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Yes that's right we studied His nature for around 3 months and we still didn't cover all of the 0.01% that He revealed to us. We just covered the very basic things and it blew all of our minds, so we're all glad that He didn't reveal 0.02% as that would be impossible for us to get our minds around.

So we were all extremely thankful to God that He had mercy on us and only revealed that 0.01% to us as that alone is enough to study for the rest of our lives and still nor fully process so yeah man there you have it. Be warned, not to try and get into the mind of God, as nobody has ever emerged alive after wanting to dabble in things God deliberately hid from us.
Thanks for the tip.
 

Scott Downey

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John 16
12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.

13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He [c]will take of Mine and declare it to you.

The truth's, the things of God, Christ tells us, you may not be able to bear hearing at this moment in you walk with faith in God.
But the Holy spirit over time will reveal them to you as you are enabled to hear them.

Perhaps they would overwhelm you if you found them out right now about the real nature of all things.
Some may not be able to ever bear them in this life as they refuse Him, not being spiritually minded.
 
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Eternally Grateful

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As I have stated over and over again, you never ever ever consider any context which verses of scripture were written in.
You can say it until your blue in the face.

I not only explained it in Great detail (John 3: 10- 21) which brings it into context. and explains it just as I had shown you. now you lie and Say I have never considered it.

You see, You could say you disagree with what i said, and we would be ok. But no. You said I NEVER consider it, shich turned a disagreement, into an outright slanderous lie..

But its ok. I have come to expect that from people who are so proud they can see what is in front of them, and just attack anything that apposes them by blindly swinging or firing shots..

The only thing is, when you have someone doing this as you are doing, You take out innocent people. and you fail to represent the people you are supposed to be fighting for.
If your private opinion of what the word "world" means in the context of John 3:16 is right,
Ok Mr catholic. YAWN.

I doubt your pope would even agree with you on this matter.
then that makes God a liar and a loser.
YOU make God a liar and a loser.
If He died for the whole world but He only saved a small number, then He is failed in His mission to save the whole world.
No he did not fail at all.

He died for the world that WHOEVER believed....

Thats his will. and he is found perfect in his will


You believe in a loser god, and I believe in a winner who never fails.
No. I believe in a loving God. You believe in a loser God. who demands we do something he refuses to do himself. Love all people..

But considering the way you attack people.. It meakes sense you would follow a God like that..
And you believe in an evil god who casts many of those He saved into the lake of fire to be tormented for all eternity.
Nope

He saved them, He sends them to the lake of fire. because they took his salvation, and said thank you but no thank you. They rejected it. They are to blame, Not God.


Can you see how evil this god of yours is.
I see how evil your God is..
Your Jesus is a very poor salesman, he couldn't convince most that eternal paradise is better that eternal torment in the lake of fire. Now pathetic
lol.

You puff yourself up and say you are special.

Your God can not even save everyone himself.. he just sends them to hell without even giving them a chance.. Don;le expect to may people to want anything to do with your God.
 

JLB

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Joshua 22:4 proves the KJB right. Hebrews 4:8 is reflecting on Joshua 22:4.

Brother, please let’s be honest in our discussion.

Here is the question I asked -

Which verse is the correct translation ?


For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. Hebrews 4:8 NKJV

For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. Hebrews 4:8 KJV


You stated Joshua which is the NKJV.



Case Closed.
 

Rockerduck

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Brother, please let’s be honest in our discussion.

Here is the question I asked -

Which verse is the correct translation ?


For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. Hebrews 4:8 NKJV

For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. Hebrews 4:8 KJV


You stated Joshua which is the NKJV.



Case Closed.
The Lord is Jesus. The Lord is telling Joshua,,,

Joshua 22:4 -And now the Lord your God has given rest to your brethren, as He promised them; now therefore, return and go to your tents and to the land of your possession, which Moses the servant of the Lord gave you on the other side of the Jordan.
 
J

Johann

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Which verse is the correct translation ?


For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. Hebrews 4:8 NKJV

For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. Hebrews 4:8 KJV
The difference between the NKJV and KJV translations of Hebrews 4:8 hinges on the name used—"Joshua" in the NKJV and "Jesus" in the KJV. Both refer to the same person, but the context determines which name is appropriate.

Context and Translation:
Greek Text: The original Greek uses the name "Ἰησοῦς" (Iēsous), which is the same name used for both "Jesus" and "Joshua."
Contextual Understanding:
Joshua: The verse is referring to the Old Testament figure Joshua, who led the Israelites into the Promised Land. The context in Hebrews 4 discusses rest, a theme related to the Israelites' journey and the rest that God promised them in the land of Canaan. The argument is that if Joshua had given them ultimate rest, there wouldn’t have been a need to speak of another rest (or day) that comes through Jesus Christ.
Jesus: The KJV, using "Jesus," reflects the ambiguity in the Greek text, as "Iēsous" can refer to either Jesus or Joshua. However, the intended reference is likely Joshua, given the Old Testament context.
Correct Translation:
NKJV ("Joshua"): This is contextually accurate, as it correctly identifies the Old Testament figure, Joshua.
KJV ("Jesus"): While linguistically accurate, it might cause confusion without understanding the historical context since "Jesus" and "Joshua" are the same name in Greek but refer to different individuals.
Thus, "Joshua" in the NKJV provides a clearer understanding of the passage, making it the more contextually accurate translation for this verse.

Hebrews 4:8 is part of a larger discussion in the Book of Hebrews about the concept of "rest" that God offers to His people. To understand the context of this verse, it is essential to examine the surrounding passages and the overarching themes of Hebrews 3 and 4.

Overview of the Context:
Theme of Rest: The author of Hebrews is discussing the "rest" that God promised to His people, originally related to the Israelites entering the Promised Land under Joshua's leadership (Hebrews 4:1-10). This "rest" was seen as a physical rest in the land of Canaan, but the author of Hebrews argues that this was not the ultimate rest that God intended for His people.

Failure of the Israelites: In Hebrews 3:7-19, the author warns believers by recalling the Israelites' failure to enter God’s rest due to their disobedience and lack of faith in the wilderness. Despite God's promise, that generation did not enter the rest because of their unbelief. This historical event is used as an admonition for the readers to hold onto faith and obedience.

Rest Beyond the Promised Land: The author extends the concept of "rest" beyond the physical rest in Canaan, emphasizing a spiritual rest that is still available to God's people. This rest is connected with God’s ultimate rest after creation (Hebrews 4:4) and is fulfilled in Christ. The rest that Joshua provided was temporary and incomplete, pointing forward to the greater rest that Jesus offers.

Joshua vs. Jesus: Hebrews 4:8 argues that the rest provided by Joshua was not the final rest because "another day" of rest is still spoken of. This suggests that the rest Joshua provided was a type, a foreshadowing of the greater, eternal rest that comes through Jesus Christ. The author is making a theological point that the rest offered by Jesus is superior and more complete than the rest that Joshua could provide.

Key Verses Leading Up to 4:8:
Hebrews 4:1-2: The chapter begins with a warning not to fall short of entering God's rest, which is still available through faith.
Hebrews 4:3-7: These verses discuss how some have entered God's rest, while others have not due to disobedience. The author quotes Psalm 95 to emphasize that the opportunity to enter God’s rest is still available "Today."
Hebrews 4:9-10: After verse 8, the author concludes that there remains a "Sabbath rest" for the people of God, indicating that this rest is ongoing and spiritual in nature, connected to the rest that Jesus provides.
Contextual Analysis of Hebrews 4:8:
Historical Reference: The verse points back to the time of Joshua, who led the Israelites into the Promised Land. However, even after Joshua’s leadership, the concept of rest is still spoken of, indicating that Joshua did not provide the ultimate rest.
Spiritual Rest in Christ: The verse is part of the argument that the true, ultimate rest comes not from entering a physical land but from a spiritual relationship with God through Jesus Christ. This rest is characterized by peace, salvation, and eternal life.

Hebrews 4:8 highlights the distinction between the temporary rest provided by Joshua and the eternal rest provided by Jesus. The author of Hebrews uses this distinction to encourage believers to strive to enter the true rest that is available in Christ, which surpasses the incomplete rest offered under the old covenant. The verse serves as a reminder that God's promise of rest is not limited to a past historical event but is an ongoing, spiritual reality for believers today.

How do you approach reading the Bible? Do you pick verses here and there, overlooking the broader context and questioning the reliability of the KJV?