Open Debate Challenge on My Defending the KJV as the Perfect Word for Today in English

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Grailhunter

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Again, tell it to me straight. Do you believe (I am not asking cause I don’t know the answer in general myself), do you believe that the Vaticanus and Sinaiticus are the two primary manuscripts that are used for both the Westcott and Hort text, and all subsequent Modern Translations after that?

NO.
In court they call that “leading the witness” LOL
Define “used for” As in do you believe that the Vaticanus and Sinaiticus are the two primary manuscripts that are used for both the Westcott and Hort text, and all subsequent Modern Translations after that?

Again modern translations are looking at all resources….not duplicating centuries old works. There are a lot to look at and compare. As far as Vaticanus and Sinaiticus and Westcott and Hort. As far as I am concerned anyone looking to produce an accurate translation of the scriptures and does not consider all resources is going to be prone to error and copy and pasting from old works is an intent to advance the errors in those works….that goes for the KJV to modern translations. But referencing old works would certainly happen whether be the Textus Receptus or Westcott and Hort texts, There is a lot to look at.

Most examples of New Testament manuscripts are fragmented.

As far as Sinaiticus and Vaticanus
Sinaiticus Codex and Vaticanus Codex are both 4th century Greek manuscripts of the New and Old Testaments that are considered to be excellent witnesses of the New Testament text. They are both uncial codices, or leaf books, written on vellum, a specially prepared lamb skin. They also share other characteristics, including having been altered and corrected with erasures, marginal notations, and interlinear markings. However, they are not copies of each other and differ in text-type and external format.

I am certain that modern translations look at all the available information….why wouldn’t they? So I believed they looked at the Sinaiticus and Vaticanus Codices and the works of Westcott and Hort. Did they copy and past them? NO.

Reference is a better term than used for.

 
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Bible Highlighter

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NO.
In court they call that “leading the witness” LOL
Define “used for” As in do you believe that the Vaticanus and Sinaiticus are the two primary manuscripts that are used for both the Westcott and Hort text, and all subsequent Modern Translations after that?

Again modern translations are looking at all resources….not duplicating centuries old works. There are a lot to look at and compare. As far as Vaticanus and Sinaiticus and Westcott and Hort. As far as I am concerned anyone looking to produce an accurate translation of the scriptures and does not consider all resources is going to be prone to error and copy and pasting from old works is an intent to advance the errors in those works….that goes for the KJV to modern translations. But referencing old works would certainly happen whether be the Textus Receptus or Westcott and Hort texts, There is a lot to look at.

Most examples of New Testament manuscripts are fragmented.

As far as Sinaiticus and Vaticanus
Sinaiticus Codex and Vaticanus Codex are both 4th century Greek manuscripts of the New and Old Testaments that are considered to be excellent witnesses of the New Testament text. They are both uncial codices, or leaf books, written on vellum, a specially prepared lamb skin. They also share other characteristics, including having been altered and corrected with erasures, marginal notations, and interlinear markings. However, they are not copies of each other and differ in text-type and external format.

I am certain that modern translations look at all the available information….why wouldn’t they? So I believed they looked at the Sinaiticus and Vaticanus Codices and the works of Westcott and Hort. Did they copy and past them? NO.

Reference is a better term than used for.

Look. I told you there are manuscripts that are used but they are not used as heavily as Vaticanus and Sinaiticus. So you are saying that Vaticanus and Sinaiticus are used for the NA28 and the Modern Bibles but they are not the two primary or main ones used? Is that what you are saying? If so, you don’t really know what you’re talking about.

In addition, if you do use the Nestle and Aland 28, you can take comfort that you can choose one variant over another and get the full experience of what it’s like to indulge in a “Choose Your Own Adventure Bible.”
 
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Grailhunter

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ook. I told you there are manuscripts that are used but they are not used as heavily as Vaticanus and Sinaiticus. So you are saying that Vaticanus and Sinaiticus are used for the NA28 and the Modern Bibles but they are not the two primary or main ones used? Is that what you are saying? If so, you don’t really know what you’re talking about.

In addition, if you do use the Nestle and Aland 28, you can take comfort that you can choose one variant over another and get the full experience of what it’s like to indulge in a “Choose Your Own Adventure Bible.”

Define used? Just one of many resources. And I am with you on one thing I wish we had a break down of how the process went down. Even the discussions. And regardlees of what resouces they looked at there nothing to say that they included any of the errors in the modern translations.
 

Bible Highlighter

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Define used? Just one of many resources. And I am with you on one thing I wish we had a break down of how the process went down. Even the discussions. And regardlees of what resouces they looked at there nothing to say that they included any of the errors in the modern translations.
Rather than my trying to explain it again, I believe it is best to let the quotes of others tell what I have been trying to express.
Please keep in mind that these are not KJV-only sources, either.

GotQuestions.org:

"Codex Sinaiticus, also known as 'Aleph' (the Hebrew letter א)... has been highly valued by Bible scholars in their efforts to reconstruct the original biblical text. Sinaiticus has heavily influenced the translation work of modern Bible versions... Codex Vaticanus, also known as 'B'... is one of the oldest and most complete Greek Bibles. It was first used as a source document by Erasmus... It has been instrumental in constructing a critical Greek text, which is the basis for many modern Bible translations."​

(GotQuestions.org)

The Text of the Gospels Blog:

"NA most definitely is an eclectic text; it is eclectically drawn from the texts of B and Aleph... Readings found in as many as 3000 other manuscripts are routinely ignored whenever they differ from the united testimony of B and Aleph."​

(The Text of the Gospels)

Wikipedia:

"Codex Vaticanus (B) and Codex Sinaiticus (ℵ) are considered two of the most important manuscripts for establishing the text of the New Testament. They are key witnesses to the Alexandrian text-type and have heavily influenced modern critical editions of the Greek New Testament, such as the Nestle-Aland Novum Testamentum Graece."​

Link to source (Wikipedia)

Theopedia:

"The Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus are the two most important manuscripts for the reconstruction of the original New Testament text. They are frequently referenced in modern critical editions like the Nestle-Aland 28, where their readings often serve as the basis for determining the original text."​

Biblical Archaeology Society:

"Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus are among the oldest and most significant manuscripts of the New Testament, playing a crucial role in the creation of modern critical editions such as the Nestle-Aland Novum Testamentum Graece. These codices provide a textual basis that is considered closer to the original New Testament writings than the later Byzantine text-type."​

Encyclopedia of Textual Criticism:

"The importance of Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus in New Testament textual criticism cannot be overstated. Both manuscripts are heavily relied upon in the Nestle-Aland 28th edition, which seeks to reconstruct the earliest attainable text of the New Testament."​

Christianity Today:

"Modern critical editions of the Greek New Testament, like the Nestle-Aland 28, draw extensively from Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus. These manuscripts, due to their early dates and high quality, are pivotal in establishing the Alexandrian text-type, which is often regarded as closest to the original New Testament writings."​

Daniel B. Wallace:

Daniel B. Wallace highlights that the NA28, like its predecessors, is primarily an eclectic text, drawing heavily from Vaticanus and Sinaiticus. He notes that while the NA28 uses over 5,000 manuscripts, the readings from Vaticanus and Sinaiticus are often prioritized, with many other manuscript readings being disregarded when they conflict with these two.​

(Daniel B. Wallace).

James Snapp, Jr.'s Blog:

NA most definitely is an eclectic text; it is eclectically drawn from the texts of B [Vaticanus] and ℵ [Sinaiticus] (A in Revelation), with occasional resort to D, L, and a minuscule or two where those three do not supply a reading. So yes, the 'eclectic' compilation, though its supporters boast is based on over five thousand Greek manuscripts, is actually based on about five manuscripts. Readings found in as many as 3000 other manuscripts are routinely ignored whenever they differ from the united testimony of B and ℵ."​
 
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Christian Soldier

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You're anxious to engage me on this, aren't you? I told you I don't want to get into it with you, preferring to focus on the invalid argument you advanced in support. (If you don't concede that invalidity, I'm happy to discuss that point further.)

But I do have a question. Have you taken a worldwide poll of Christians to find out if "most" who reject predestination do so because "it leaves them nothing to boast about?" Or is this conjecture on your part? Because if you took the poll, you really ought to publish the results.
I'm not looking to engage in a futile debate with anyone who rejects God Word. I know that Gods Word is foolishness to those who eyes have not been opened by God to see the truth of the gospel.

I was an Arminian like you, for many years before I realized that I was deceived by false doctrine.

Yes pride is the sin that caused Lucifer to fall, and it's still the main sin that causes professing Christians to fall today. It's silly to expect professing Christians to admit that they boast in their works, as we all know the are in denial so they will go to their grave denying it.

The sad reality is, that those who are deceived are not able to endure sound doctrine, as it is very irritating to them. They hate the truth so they fight tooth and nail against anyone who speaks the truth to them. If God doesn't intervene and open their eyes, they go to their grave, denying the truth.
 

Christian Soldier

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Of what use are distinctions like "Arminian" and "Calvinist" if we're all just waiting around to see which side of the election fence we finally wake up on?

.
That's right, it's no use to those who don't know Jesus as their Lord and savior. But those of us who do know Him as Lord and savior, already have eternal life in paradise guaranteed by God Himself. So we're not sitting around to see if we got lucky as the Arminian theology teaches.
 

BarneyFife

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That's right, it's no use to those who don't know Jesus as their Lord and savior. But those of us who do know Him as Lord and savior, already have eternal life in paradise guaranteed by God Himself. So we're not sitting around to see if we got lucky as the Arminian theology teaches.

I'm sure that was a lot of comfort to you back when you were just a troglodyte Arminian. Now it's just fun, "us-and-them" talking points. Go in peace, ye of the Elect.

.
 

ReChoired

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The Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus
Are predicted by Jesus as two false christs in word form:

Codex Aleph (aka 'Sinaiticus', Catherine's Monastery, Desert Peninsula); Codex B (aka 'Vaticanus", Secret Archives Vatican Vaults):

Mat_24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.​
 

St. SteVen

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I'm sure that was a lot of comfort to you back when you were just a troglodyte Arminian. Now it's just fun, "us-and-them" talking points. Go in peace, ye of the Elect.

.
Worth discussing. (but not here) New topic launched. (link below)


[
 

St. SteVen

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Are predicted by Jesus as two false christs in word form:

Codex Aleph (aka 'Sinaiticus', Catherine's Monastery, Desert Peninsula); Codex B (aka 'Vaticanus", Secret Archives Vatican Vaults):

Mat_24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.​
This is interesting, thanks.
Are you making a statement against the Desert Fathers? (probably not) But, you seem to be linking "Desert/desert" in both statements. ???

The "Secret Archives Vatican Vaults" thing is a bit strange as well. Why secret?

[
 

RedFan

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That's right, it's no use to those who don't know Jesus as their Lord and savior. But those of us who do know Him as Lord and savior, already have eternal life in paradise guaranteed by God Himself. So we're not sitting around to see if we got lucky as the Arminian theology teaches.
Why criticize us, if it's out of our hands?
 

BarneyFife

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Why criticize us, if it's out of our hands?

It's not for our benefit, unless we're actually an "us" instead of a "them." Or is it the other way around? I guess it depends on your perspective.

Anyway, my experience is that you're not considered a good member of "us" unless you're willing to rub your "us"ness in the face of "them."

Am I gettin' through to you, Fella? (That's a Barney Fife line :p)

If I am, then explain it to me, would ya?

.
 
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Christian Soldier

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I'm sure that was a lot of comfort to you back when you were just a troglodyte Arminian. Now it's just fun, "us-and-them" talking points. Go in peace, ye of the Elect.

.
Thank you for the kind comment, and for acknowledging the fact that God saved His Elect before He created the world. This truth is awful for those who hold to false man made gospels, which can't save anyone.

There are only two kinds of people in the world, there are the children of God and the children of the Devil. God doesn't have any step sons.

John 8:44-45
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Jesus wasn't joking when He identified them as the children of the Devil. It's a very sobering fact. 1 John 3 describes Gods children, they are completely different, so you can't confuse the two distinct kinds of people.

1 John 3:1
3 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

Notice neither of the two kinds of children are waiting around to find out who they are, they are already representing their Father right now. It's not a competition where the winners receive salvation as a prize for their wisdom in choosing eternal paradise over eternal torment in hell.

I can't believe that anyone would choose eternal torment in hell fire, while rejecting the free offer of eternal paradise. It just doesn't make any sense at all, I don't believe anyone is that stupid but that's exactly what Arminian theology teaches.
 

Christian Soldier

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Why criticize us, if it's out of our hands?
I don't criticize unsaved people for not being chosen by God, but I do criticize rebellious sinners who's every thought and action is evil continuously. They are not cast into hell because God didn't chose to save them, they are cast into hell because God has no other alternative. A Holy and Righteous God must punish sinners eternally, if He didn't then He would be corrupt and evil.

If you murder someone and stand before a Judge, and that Judge gives you a slap on the wrist as punishment then the Judge is just as wicked as the murderer. In any case we shouldn't even be discussing God's private business, we have no right to question anything He does. He can do whatever He pleases with His property, we are all Gods property so He has every right to do whatever He wants with His own.

I consider any questioning of God, to be pure blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. It shows a complete disrespect towards God and it accuses Him of being evil and there's nothing worse than that. There is no hope of salvation for anyone who commits that unpardonable sin.
 

BarneyFife

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They are not cast into hell because God didn't chose to save them, they are cast into hell because God has no other alternative.

I suppose this is just part of another way of saying that those who see the obvious impotence of the god here described are simply blinded by their own non-electness.

.
 
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