Open Debate Challenge on My Defending the KJV as the Perfect Word for Today in English

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
13,960
5,701
113
69
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I notice you have no issue with God killing billions of men women and babies and unborn babies, with a flood but you have a problem with His choice of who He suffered and died for. If you suffered and died for someone else's sin ten you would also have a right to choose who you die for.
Actually I do have an issue with global genocide. And that it was used as a cover-up for an error in creation.

The Atonement paid the death penalty for all. Do you claim it was insufficient somehow?

1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

[
 
  • Like
Reactions: MA2444

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
13,960
5,701
113
69
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
So you're saying that God is to blame for child raping murderers. God is not the author f sin, man sins because he inherited a sin nature from father Adam. If God doesn't kill the person and give him a new Spirit, he will remain wicked and bring damnation upon himself.
If God is sovereign, then the buck stops there. He is ultimately responsible for what he allows. In the book of Job, God determined how far Satan could go.

God is under no obligation to save anyone, you have noting to offer Him but a filthy stinking corpse and filthy rags. Your question is why would God save anyone, in that condition. God has nothing to do with man, He is outside of His creation, He is outside of time and space, He can't be seen and He doesn't listen to any man's prayers.
More proof of your claim that God is a tyrant. (for shame)

Does Father God really regard humankind that he created in his own image in the demeaning terms you describe in your quote above?

The only way anyone's prayers can reach the Father is through His Son. So God the Father remains a complete mystery we know next to nothing about Him. So asking silly questions like is mans will superior to Gods sovereign will is not a valid question. god does whatever He wats to do and man remains clueless as to how or why, so it's futile to ask those questions about Him.
So, you don't believe that God hears prayers through Mary the Mother of God, or the Saints?

[
 

Grailhunter

Well-Known Member
Jun 19, 2019
12,391
5,725
113
67
FARMINGTON
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
So the quote I gave you is inaccurate to what Westcott and Hort said? You are unable to read the half title page I told you about for the Revised Version? I cannot help you if you are unable to figure it out, my friend.

No I will copy and past what I said....This is a blast from the past. As far as KJV enthusiasts go this is their favorite conspiracy theory. Not that intrigue and errors did not happen, the conspiracy theory is that it affects most modern versions in the 20th century.
 

Grailhunter

Well-Known Member
Jun 19, 2019
12,391
5,725
113
67
FARMINGTON
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
As for your claim that the Nestle and Aland is not largely related to the Westcott and Hort 1881 NT Greek:

Well, Textual Critic Eldon Jay Epp believes the Nestle and Aland text barely differs from the Westcott and Hort text.

Here is a quote from Textual Critic Eldon Jay Epp:

The thing to see is that the text of 100 years ago (i.e., in 1980, the text of 1881, Hort’s compilation) is barely different from the text being published as the 28th edition of Novum Testamentum Graece. To offer up-to-date evidence of this point, I have made a fresh comparison of the 1881 compilation and the current edition of the Nestle-Aland compilation….” ~ Quote by: Eldon Jay Epp.
You can find out Eldon Jay Epp’s compilation study or findings here. Please keep in mind he is no KJV advocate but he is in defense of Modern Scholarship.

Just so we are not talking about two different processes.....at one time someone or a set of scholars would translate the scriptures and people translating would use that work as a reference. The problem with that is that whatever was wrong with that work would be duplicated in other Bibles. 20th century translations are looking at the oldest manuscripts available and translates them on there own. They are not look at past translations to duplicate them.
 
  • Love
Reactions: St. SteVen

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
13,960
5,701
113
69
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The King James Bible was good for it's time but it's no good in our time.
Perhaps this topic would be helpful for you.


[
 

Grailhunter

Well-Known Member
Jun 19, 2019
12,391
5,725
113
67
FARMINGTON
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
But there are deceptions in the Modern Bible Movement, nonetheless. Modern Bible Advocates say that the Scriptures are inspired as if there is such a thing in the present, but then they backpedal and say that they are only inspired in the originals.

Well modern deceptions we can talk about.

But now a days the cat is kinda of out of the bag. The oldest manuscripts are in museums or various locations. These manuscripts have been photocopied and placed in books. (I have a couple.) Technically a person could translate them and print their own Bible.

As far as inspired scriptures that is a more difficult topic.....and I am not going to be able to give it justice here...
All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped. 2nd Timothy 3:16-17 The scriptures that Paul is talking about here are OId Testament scriptures. Paul does not sit down and thinking.....here I write a scripture to the Galatians.

Around the time of the Ecumenical Counsels a list of popular Christian writings had already formed and as a whole the Ecumenical Councils accept that list as Canon. But at no point is there a divine event to christen New Testament Christian writings as scriptures. Later on Christians started calling New Testament writings....scriptures. And Christians had their own beliefs regarding the writings once Bibles were available to the public which did not occur until the 16th century. Until then people were taught what to believe by word of mouth.....by the Catholic Church. The Gutenberg Printing Press changed all that.

As far as inspired writings, was that the originals? No such thing as inspired hand copies. But copyists and scriptoriums worked by strict rules....but as time went on those rules were bent and people started taking things out that they did not like and inserting things that they thought should be there, or rewording something to make it more clear…..they thought. ... Or adding stories and giving a book a more correct ending…..they thought. Some of this was occurring during the Dark Ages when who was doing what was not documented history. This is why those translating New Testament writings seek out the oldest manuscripts.
 
Last edited:

Rockerduck

Well-Known Member
Nov 7, 2022
2,528
2,164
113
70
Marietta, Georgia.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Sounds like the man-made "blame the victim' doctrine. So is the will of humankind superior to God's sovereign will?

[
God says:
Ezekial 18:23 - Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

Jesus says:
Luke 13:1 - There were present at that season some that told him of the Galileans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2 And Jesus answering said unto them, suppose ye that these Galileans were sinners above all the Galileans, because they suffered such things? 3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
 
  • Like
Reactions: St. SteVen

Rockerduck

Well-Known Member
Nov 7, 2022
2,528
2,164
113
70
Marietta, Georgia.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
. And Christians had their own beliefs regarding the writings once Bibles were available to the public which did not occur until the 16th century. Until then people were taught what to believe by word of mouth.....by the Catholic Church. The Gutenberg Printing Press changed all that.
If Marcion of Sinope had a New Testament bible in 144 ad. , then we can assume others had NT bibles too.
 

Grailhunter

Well-Known Member
Jun 19, 2019
12,391
5,725
113
67
FARMINGTON
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
If Marcion of Sinope had a New Testament bible in 144 ad. , then we can assume others had NT bibles too.

I did not say people did not have a collection of writings. Did they have a Canon? Look into the history of bound books. And Gnostic Marcion does not constitute the public.
 

MA2444

Well-Known Member
Jan 9, 2024
3,840
1,986
113
62
Columbus Ohio
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
If God is sovereign, then the buck stops there. He is ultimately responsible for what he allows. In the book of Job, God determined how far Satan could go.

Right, but God doesnt cause the things to happen. He allows how far satan can go, and He allows it to test us as Believers. We have free will so must make the choice of what to do in any situation.

Our spirit speaks on one side being our conscience...do the right thing...
The soul speaks on the other side being our mind/will/intellect...If you screw the guy then you'll make a pile of money!

Then we make up our mind (will) to do this or that...
Then we either pass thest or fail it.
 

Rockerduck

Well-Known Member
Nov 7, 2022
2,528
2,164
113
70
Marietta, Georgia.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I did not say people did not have a collection of writings. Did they have a Canon? Look into the history of bound books. And Gnostic Marcion does not constitute the public.
He was quite a figure in his day and it wasn't just a collection of letters because he placed them in a book, maybe not bound, but the kind of book back then. He rejected the Septuagint and refused to add it to his. He felt Jewish Christians were forcing their bible on Christian Gentiles. Bound books are a different conversion.
 

Grailhunter

Well-Known Member
Jun 19, 2019
12,391
5,725
113
67
FARMINGTON
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
He was quite a figure in his day and it wasn't just a collection of letters because he placed them in a book, maybe not bound, but the kind of book back then. He rejected the Septuagint and refused to add it to his. He felt Jewish Christians were forcing their bible on Christian Gentiles. Bound books are a different conversion.

He was not the only one to have copies of New Testament writings. Look into the Early Church Fathers that were actually Christian….

 

MA2444

Well-Known Member
Jan 9, 2024
3,840
1,986
113
62
Columbus Ohio
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
So you're saying that God is to blame for child raping murderers. God is not the author f sin, man sins because he inherited a sin nature from father Adam. If God doesn't kill the person and give him a new Spirit, he will remain wicked and bring damnation upon himself.

How confused can you get? it is the child raping murderer that is to blame.

If the guy repents from his sin and asks for God's forgiveness then he will be saved. All men are born condemned. And while we were yet sinners, He sent His son to die for us. (Romans 5:8)

God is under no obligation to save anyone, you have noting to offer Him but a filthy stinking corpse and filthy rags. Your question is why would God save anyone, in that condition. God has nothing to do with man, He is outside of His creation, He is outside of time and space, He can't be seen and He doesn't listen to any man's prayers.

It is correct that God hears not the carnal mans prayers, the flesh body and soul. God does see man's spirit and only hears his spirit. God sees into mans heart (so that must be a componant of the spirit also). He can be seen by man though if God chooses to reveal Himself and manifest for any particular person. That's what the tering apart of the Temple Veil was all about when Jesus was crucified and there was a great earthquake.

The only way anyone's prayers can reach the Father is through His Son. So God the Father remains a complete mystery we know next to nothing about Him. So asking silly questions like is mans will superior to Gods sovereign will is not a valid question. god does whatever He wats to do and man remains clueless as to how or why, so it's futile to ask those questions about Him.

You have a point here. But mans will is not superior to God's will. He gave us free will and God will not violate anyones free will to make the choice. So it wouldnt be a valid question. Gods ways are above our ways and His thoughts above our thoughts. So of course we have no clue! The Carnal man is unable to ever get a clue!
I have seen certain supernatural things happen before that, there could be no other answer than God Himself did a miracle....and my carnal mind witnessed all of it to and still argues with me about them! Lol. But we dont need to prove it to our soulful self. We dont need to understand it. All will be revealed one day.
That's when we get to hear about why God allowed for the child to get raped and murdered. What we dont get to hear about it is the things like, yeah but the childs entire family turned to the Lord because of her death...or the guilty party felt convicted and turned to the Lord and went on to become a pastor and lead 4000 people to the Lord...We dont know but it has to be something like that. For Gods bugger purpose.

And the little girl who had such a short tragic life? She is rewarded beyond everything she could imagine...? Could be!
 
J

Johann

Guest
Your welcome.

May the Lord Jesus Christ bless you and yours.
Oops! We ran into some problems.
You have been banned for the following reason: Rules violations.


On that site--I could only read one page of what you have posted brother.
 

St. SteVen

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2023
13,960
5,701
113
69
Minneapolis
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
God says:
Ezekial 18:23 - Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?

Jesus says:
Luke 13:1 - There were present at that season some that told him of the Galileans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2 And Jesus answering said unto them, suppose ye that these Galileans were sinners above all the Galileans, because they suffered such things? 3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Ye shall all likewise perish? Indeed, we shall. Like all humankind.

]
 

Scott Downey

Well-Known Member
Dec 19, 2021
8,269
5,149
113
65
St. Thomas
Faith
Christian
Country
Virgin Islands, U.S.
Most everyone agrees that the gate is narrow and not everyone will enter it. But that fact alone does not support "the doctrine of election and predestination to salvation" as you claimed in Post #246

I want to be clear on what I am saying here. You say only the ELECT find the narrow gate. I say, maybe that's true and maybe that isn't true (I think it isn't, but I just don't want to get into it now), but either way, the bare fact that the gate is narrow and not everyone enters it tells us NOTHING about predestination. It could equally be true (again, I wont debate this now) that the entrants simply chose to enter by exercise of their free will, uncompelled by anything that entails a predestined outcome.

Maybe predestination is true. Let's assume it is, for purposes of this discussion. All I am saying is that the width of the gate, and the fact that salvation is not found by everyone, do not support its truth. Your theology may be spot on, but your logic isn't.
Here are the elect described. His saints are the elect, and the elect are His saints.

Romans 8
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
 

Scott Downey

Well-Known Member
Dec 19, 2021
8,269
5,149
113
65
St. Thomas
Faith
Christian
Country
Virgin Islands, U.S.
Romans 11

7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written:

“God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day.”

Here again are the elect, and only the elect obtain salvation in Christ, the others are blinded. Blinded by God, blinded by the 'god of this world' (2 Cor 4), people are not free, their wills are bound to the fate of the world as they are of the world and not of God.
If they are not of God, they will not hear God and believe as Christ teaches in John 8.

To be of God as Christ taught, you must be spiritually reborn, only then can your born of God spirit believe what Christ says about God. Otherwise, you remain blinded to the gospel and cannot believe and be saved. A man must be born again by God to be of God and hear Christ as in then they are spiritually minded. When God says the imagination of man is evil from His youth, God is not telling tall tales as God cannot lie. Men have imagined many false and evil things, pursuing vanitites, the history of this world shows you that.

John 8
31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed.
32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
33 They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can You say, ‘You will be made free’?”

34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.

These Jews did not believe as Christ further explains they are of Satan and not of God, if you read the rest of John 8, yet they claimed God as their Father. Jesus called them liars, He knew the truth and said.

54 Jesus answered, “If I honor Myself, My honor is nothing. It is My Father who honors Me, of whom you say that He is [o]your God. 55 Yet you have not known Him, but I know Him. And if I say, ‘I do not know Him,’ I shall be a liar like you; but I do know Him and keep His word.

The SON must make you free, no one else will do that.

If you're not made free from being of the world, you are bound to the fate of this current creation and won't be worthy of the new heavens, new earth, the age to come, the age of the resurrection where the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear! Matthew 13

The Parable of the Tares Explained​

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field.”

37 He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. 40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!


The elect are God's people whom He foreknew from the beginning of everything as His own chosen race, nation, people.
That them alone would obtain His mercy and grace to be saved, and no one else.

God being God, God as creator calling things into existence all things from nothing, declaring from before time began what He will do according to the council of His own will does HE work.

Romans 11:36
For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.

Isaiah 46
8 “Remember this, and [b]show yourselves men;
Recall to mind, O you transgressors.
9 Remember the former things of old,
For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like Me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
And I will do all My pleasure,’
11 Calling a bird of prey from the east,
The man who executes My counsel, from a far country.
Indeed I have spoken it;
I will also bring it to pass.
I have purposed it;
I will also do it.

Of course, the creation was subjected to futility so as it must then totally depend on God for everything (of mice and men).
Man cannot determine his own destiny. Man does not exist apart from God. Without Him man can do nothing. There is no escape to Mars... like some think man must leave the earth as it is ruined beyond hope.

The creation cannot continue without the sustaining word of God upholding it. But the result of that futility is the revealing of the sons of God and a glorious liberty, freedom from sin, death, evil celestial powers, the devil.

Romans 8
18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of [f]corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.

**********************************************
Romans 11 and the election

I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 3 “Lord, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life”? 4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. [a]But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written:

“God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day.”
9 And David says:

“Let their table become a snare and a trap,
A stumbling block and a recompense to them.
10 Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see,
And bow down their back always.”
 

Bible Highlighter

Well-Known Member
Feb 17, 2022
4,943
1,083
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Just so we are not talking about two different processes.....at one time someone or a set of scholars would translate the scriptures and people translating would use that work as a reference. The problem with that is that whatever was wrong with that work would be duplicated in other Bibles. 20th century translations are looking at the oldest manuscripts available and translates them on there own. They are not look at past translations to duplicate them.
What oldest manuscripts are you talking about? If you are educated on this topic even remotely, you would know that the Modern Bibles are based on the Nestle and Aland apparatus (which has Vaticanus and Sinaiticus primacy). So if you are for popular Modern Scholarship, you follow the Vaticanus and Sinaiticus for the New Testament Greek. Now, there are many problems with this position. First, Vaticanus and Sinaiticus disagree in thousands in places in the gospels alone. So an artificial never before seen sham-Wow Bible mashed these two conflicting manuscripts together. They teach Catholic ideas (unlike the KJV / TR). They have corrections all over the Vaticanus. One scribe says to another scribe, “fool and knave, keep the old reading.” Hardly the best. Sinaiticus was found in the fake Sinai location and Unitarians visit this manuscript by the bus load because it was a major reform for their Unitarian cause. Again, how is m this manuscript the best? You just bought the lie by scholars it was the best when you did not bother to check if they had problems.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Johann

Bible Highlighter

Well-Known Member
Feb 17, 2022
4,943
1,083
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Oops! We ran into some problems.
You have been banned for the following reason: Rules violations.


On that site--I could only read one page of what you have posted brother.
No, my friend. I am not banned. I just posted in that thread and another (just now).

It may have been a faulty link. There is also a message at the top of the page to warn posters on a political matter. But that is unrelated to me. If this new link does not work, try signing up to be a member.

Here is the link again.

 
Last edited:

Christian Soldier

Well-Known Member
Jun 30, 2024
1,022
208
63
36
Sydney
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Most everyone agrees that the gate is narrow and not everyone will enter it. But that fact alone does not support "the doctrine of election and predestination to salvation" as you claimed in Post #246

I want to be clear on what I am saying here. You say only the ELECT find the narrow gate. I say, maybe that's true and maybe that isn't true (I think it isn't, but I just don't want to get into it now), but either way, the bare fact that the gate is narrow and not everyone enters it tells us NOTHING about predestination. It could equally be true (again, I wont debate this now) that the entrants simply chose to enter by exercise of their free will, uncompelled by anything that entails a predestined outcome.

Maybe predestination is true. Let's assume it is, for purposes of this discussion. All I am saying is that the width of the gate, and the fact that salvation is not found by everyone, do not support its truth. Your theology may be spot on, but your logic isn't.
The Bible doctrine of election and predestination to salvation, is confirmed throughout the Bible. It's a done deal, so it's not open for debate and the opinions men don't change the anything.

If one rejects, the doctrine of election to salvation, then he is rejecting Gods Word and making Him a liar. I understand most Christians hate this doctrine, as it leaves them nothing to boast about. Men love to boast about how smart they were to figure out that choosing eternal paradise is wiser than choosing eternal torment in the lake of fire.

These proud Christians take a lot of pride in their wisdom and intelligence and they love to mock those poor devils who chose to spend eternity in the lake of fire. I know it's a very difficult decision for most, because the lake of fire obviously sounds like lots of fun, otherwise they wouldn't choose it right?