Open Debate Challenge on My Defending the KJV as the Perfect Word for Today in English

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Johann

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Check my write-up here, brother:

Thank you, I've bookmarked it. God bless you for your stance on the pure Word given by our Father to the apostles.
Shalom to you and family
J.
 

Christian Soldier

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There are actually three biblical views of the final judgment.
1) Damnationism
2) Annihilationism
3) Ultimate Redemption (UR)
All three views are both biblical and contradictory.


You also wrote:
Christian Soldier said:
Why are you being willfully ignorant of the fact that you falsely accused God of evil.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Now you claim that God DECIDED to save some and to predestine the others to eternal torment. (an evil mischaracterization of God)

If the narrow way refers to salvation, then you are accusing God of making sport with our souls.
A high-stakes puzzle that few can solve. (few find it) Do you really believe that salvation is a cruel game of chance?


[
There is only one doctrine of hell, I'm sure those who push the doctrine of Demons have invented many others. But only one is confirmed by God as the truth of the matter.

You falsely accuse me of claiming that God predestines some to eternal torment. God never predestined anyone to eternal torment in hellfire. Those who end up there, do so because God has no choice in the matter. He can't be a good and perfectly righteous, if He doesn't cast sinners into the lake of fire. I would reject Him if He didn't so He has no choice other than to be true to His nature.

You deserve eternal torment in hell and so do I, God never told us why He chose to certain people. It's none of your business to ask why He didn't chose to save everyone. If He wanted you to know He would have told you, so all your accusations are false. Satan is the false accuser, don't follow in His footsteps.
 

Christian Soldier

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Simple answer is, only the elect of God find the narrow gate. Because God draws them to the narrow gate, that's how. The rest will never find it because the narrow path is stupid to them, it makes no sense in their mind so they will never even consider entering the narrow gate.
 
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Christian Soldier

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Scripture is clear, says some are given His mercy. Those who get mercy from God, God does not impute to them their sin.
You had sin, God did not impute your sins to your account. That is why the NC is so wonderful. Find it in Hebrews 8.
In our NC, for believers, God imputes to us Christ's righteousness. God does not remember our sins and trespasses to the judgement of hell. God is merciful to our unrighteousness.

It is not about what we deserve it is about God's purposes and plans.
We all sinned, and the soul that sins shall die God says, and in reality, you DIED,
so then since you died, now you are dead to sin so that you are alive to God in Christ.

For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.

Colossians 3
If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God. 2 Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth.

3 For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.

4 When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.

5 Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience, 7 in which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them.

8 But now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth. 9 Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, 10 and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him, 11 where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all.



Good reading here about what God imputes to us believers

1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father[a] has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was [b]accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted [c]as grace but as debt.

David Celebrates the Same Truth​

5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”

Abraham Justified Before Circumcision​

9 Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised.

The Promise Granted Through Faith​

13 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, 15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.

16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be [d]sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did; 18 who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, “So shall your descendants be.” 19 And not being weak in faith, he did not consider his own body, already dead (since he was about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb. 20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. 22 And therefore “it was accounted to him for righteousness.”

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.
Thanks for sharing these scriptures and your wisdom, it is greatly appreciated. I have a long way to go to reach your level of maturity as a Christian. All of those scriptures are more valuable than precious gems and pure gold.

Nobody can argue against Gods Word, many deny it as it is awful to those who are still in their sin, but it's beautiful to those who Love the Lord.

I love the way you present the doctrine of predestination and election to salvation, with scripture. I will try to do the same, instead of getting caught up in futile debates. Gods Word speaks for itself, people can believe it or reject it but it's not open to scrutiny by totally depraved man, who is dead in his trespasses and sin.
 

Bible Highlighter

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You still sound like a conspiracy theorist.
Lets say we have a Sunday School teacher that tells people he believes science is all bunk and lies. But when he turns on his big screen television to watch the Super Bowl game which gets it signal from a satellite orbiting at thousands of miles above the Earth. He is not surprised….he believes. Is he juggling beliefs about science or partial blinders? Where are the dividing lines because he moves through them everyday. It is easy to deny things that cannot be seen or touched or technology that most people do not understand.

So then he gets into his Ford pickup truck that has 32 micro-processors in it and Onstar to go to Sunday School to teach people that science is all bunk and lies. The young in his class that are attending college to be doctors and nurses, he tell them…..Ya know you cannot believe what you have been taught in college because it is mostly bunk and lies.

To put it bluntly, the Quest is about knowing the Truth, rejecting the lies and getting rid of the stupid in your religion, and if you can’t, you deserve what you live. The love of ugly, misery, sadness, and cowardice is just one of the placebo realities that forms the Christian Matrix, and there are many more. For example consider this; The Christian Matrix has a very strong influence on the mind, which could even be called control, it coexists with reality so the mind juggles these realities. Will his microwave really heat up the pizza or is it a lie….but he believes. But when reality is required for survival the mind has its own power to override the Christian Matrix. It is called the survival instinct, and once activated, it will mow over the Christian Matrix like it was a steamroller, because the survival instincts will drive survival. But then the Christian Matrix affects a broad range of things, case in point; The Christian Matrix can sustain the belief that according to some Christian teachings, science does not know anything, they are all wrong about the world being billions of years old, their wrong about evolution, and there is no such thing as dinosaurs and cavemen. The Christian Matrix can sustain the belief that science is all bunk! Yet the same mind that would teach this rubbish in Sunday school, when faced with a heart attack, will not drop to his knees and pray until it goes away, he will use that little witchy device that can call anyone in the world, and he will use it to call the technology wagon, otherwise called the ambulance. When it arrives he is not going to instruct the driver to take him to the nearest church, he will want to go to the nearest place of science, the hospital. Then when he gets to the hospital, he is not looking for a preacher, he is hoping that a man of medical science is there, and he hopes that the man believes in science, because if he is one of his Sunday school students, and all he does is pull out a Bible and reads scriptures to him for the next couple hours......he is going to die!

Selective denial of science and history only works for things you cannot see or touch…..it is deceiver’s playground.
First, it is silly in my view for you to imply there are no conspiracies in life. They are happening now in the Leftist Machine. Personally, I am actually not much into conspiracy theories (Especially when it does not deal with things that do not really affect our lives currently like looking into a past event like 9/11). However, It does not take a detective to figure out the Modern Bible Movement is filled with deceptions. These deceptions are most likely are not all coordinated like say with the Left in the political universe, but they exist nonetheless. In fact, what statements did I make that sound like a conspiracy theory involving the Modern Bible Movement? I would be happy to explain my reasoning that is pretty straightforward.

Second, while Modern Textual Criticism is called a Science, it really is not like regular Natural Science. Modern Textual Criticism is more guesswork and theories than it is a reliable Science. People get thrown off sometimes on Science because they blur the lines between Historical Science vs. Observational Science.


Anyway, I have listened to the lies by scholars over the years. If people lie to you and they make money by this industry, then they have motivation to not tell the truth. Who wants to lose their job in the scholarship world? None that I know of. Truth becomes inconvenient when it comes to receiving a paycheck. There is no big money in defending the KJV anymore than there is in following Jesus. Truth is not always popular. Just look at the Leftist machine. The lies are spinning even now.
 
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St. SteVen

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It's none of your business to ask why He didn't chose to save everyone. If He wanted you to know He would have told you, so all your accusations are false.
LOL
Is God such a tyrant in your opinion that he can't answer a few reasonable questions? Such an insult to our loving heavenly Father.

[
 

Bible Highlighter

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You still sound like a conspiracy theorist.
Lets say we have a Sunday School teacher that tells people he believes science is all bunk and lies. But when he turns on his big screen television to watch the Super Bowl game which gets it signal from a satellite orbiting at thousands of miles above the Earth. He is not surprised….he believes. Is he juggling beliefs about science or partial blinders? Where are the dividing lines because he moves through them everyday. It is easy to deny things that cannot be seen or touched or technology that most people do not understand.

So then he gets into his Ford pickup truck that has 32 micro-processors in it and Onstar to go to Sunday School to teach people that science is all bunk and lies. The young in his class that are attending college to be doctors and nurses, he tell them…..Ya know you cannot believe what you have been taught in college because it is mostly bunk and lies.

To put it bluntly, the Quest is about knowing the Truth, rejecting the lies and getting rid of the stupid in your religion, and if you can’t, you deserve what you live. The love of ugly, misery, sadness, and cowardice is just one of the placebo realities that forms the Christian Matrix, and there are many more. For example consider this; The Christian Matrix has a very strong influence on the mind, which could even be called control, it coexists with reality so the mind juggles these realities. Will his microwave really heat up the pizza or is it a lie….but he believes. But when reality is required for survival the mind has its own power to override the Christian Matrix. It is called the survival instinct, and once activated, it will mow over the Christian Matrix like it was a steamroller, because the survival instincts will drive survival. But then the Christian Matrix affects a broad range of things, case in point; The Christian Matrix can sustain the belief that according to some Christian teachings, science does not know anything, they are all wrong about the world being billions of years old, their wrong about evolution, and there is no such thing as dinosaurs and cavemen. The Christian Matrix can sustain the belief that science is all bunk! Yet the same mind that would teach this rubbish in Sunday school, when faced with a heart attack, will not drop to his knees and pray until it goes away, he will use that little witchy device that can call anyone in the world, and he will use it to call the technology wagon, otherwise called the ambulance. When it arrives he is not going to instruct the driver to take him to the nearest church, he will want to go to the nearest place of science, the hospital. Then when he gets to the hospital, he is not looking for a preacher, he is hoping that a man of medical science is there, and he hopes that the man believes in science, because if he is one of his Sunday school students, and all he does is pull out a Bible and reads scriptures to him for the next couple hours......he is going to die!

Selective denial of science and history only works for things you cannot see or touch…..it is deceiver’s playground.
So you can go to Archive.org and look at the half title page of the Revised Version (which is in the beginning of the book). It says that it is the version set forth in 1611. This was because Westcott and Hort were commissioned to do a KJV update. However, everyone today knows the Revised Version is not the version set forth in 1611 because it does not have the Comma and other KJV verses.

Now, listen to this discourse.

1861 Apr. 12th – Hort to Westcott: “Also – but this may be cowardice – I have a sort of craving that our text should be cast upon the world before we deal with matters likely to brand us with suspicion. I mean, a text, issued by men already known for what will undoubtedly be treated as dangerous heresy, will have great difficulties in finding its way to regions which it might otherwise hope to reach, and whence it would not be easily banished by subsequent alarms.” (Life, Vol.I, p.445).

They are talking about sneaking in their Greek text that smashes together Vaticanus and Sinaiticus which underlies the Revised Version. Hort said the Textus Receptus was villainous and vile.

Now, you are either are not a good detective, or you will see what I am talking about here.
 
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Grailhunter

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In fact, what statements did I make that sound like a conspiracy theory involving the Modern Bible Movement?

That’s because you are buying what the Modern scholars are saying. But they have lied over the years and continue to lie on other things in scholarship and so that does not give me any confidence on their story involving the Comma that you have swallowed, hook, line, and sinker. The grammar issues is something you have to ignore to make the false narrative work. I say it is false not only because of the source (kind of like how a person who is in the know would not blindly believe everything from the Leftist media) but because there also testimonies in history that state that the Scriptures were corrupted by Arians in the early centuries. Even Jerome stated that Comma was being corrupted when it was translated from the Greek to the Latin. 460 bishops were willing to die for the Comma when they testified to it. Their tongues were cut out but they were by a miracle still able to speak and testify to the truth again.

First, it is pretty dumb to claim there are no conspiracies in life. They are happening now in the Leftist Machine. I am actually not much into conspiracy theories (Especially when it does not deal with things that do not really affect our lives currently like looking into a past event like 9/11). However, It does not take a detective to figure out the Modern Bible Movement is filled with deceptions. These deceptions are most likely are not all coordinated like say with the Left in the political universe, but they exist nonetheless. In fact, what statements did I make that sound like a conspiracy theory involving the Modern Bible Movement? I would be happy to explain my reasoning that is pretty straightforward.

It mostly it is about conspiracy theories that modern translators have malicious intent and somehow the left is running the show...And everybody is lying.
 

St. SteVen

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God never predestined anyone to eternal torment in hellfire. Those who end up there, do so because God has no choice in the matter.
Sounds like the man-made "blame the victim' doctrine. So is the will of humankind superior to God's sovereign will?

[
 

Grailhunter

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So you can go to Archive.org and look at the half title page of the Revised Version (which is in the beginning of the book). It says that it is the version set forth in 1611. This was because Westcott and Hort were commissioned to do a KJV update. However, everyone today knows it is not the version set forth in 1611 because it does not have the Comma and other KJV verses.

This is a blast from the past. As far as KJV enthusiasts go this is their favorite conspiracy theory. Not that intrigue and errors did not happen, the conspiracy theory is that it affects most modern versions in the 20th century. Most modern translations are referencing the latest existing copies of the older manuscripts. Which makes sense….why would want to resurrect all the old problems and inaccuracies to put them in modern translations when you have more reliable examples of the original texts. But still I can understand why people are duped into this because there is a lot of information floating around…..but is all KJV only people promoting these conspiracies theories, even saying that modern versions are based on Westcott and Hort's work.
 

Christian Soldier

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LOL
Is God such a tyrant in your opinion that he can't answer a few reasonable questions? Such an insult to our loving heavenly Father.

[
First of all, who are you to question anything God does. What He does with His things are His business, He owns you so He can do whatever He pleases to you and you have ZERO right to question Him.

Lucifer challenged God authority, and look what happened to Him. Why would you follow in His footsteps, why not just keep quite and obey everything He commands you to obey. You don't have the authority to put God on trial.

I notice you have no issue with God killing billions of men women and babies and unborn babies, with a flood but you have a problem with His choice of who He suffered and died for. If you suffered and died for someone else's sin ten you would also have a right to choose who you die for.
 

Christian Soldier

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Sounds like the man-made "blame the victim' doctrine. So is the will of humankind superior to God's sovereign will?

[
So you're saying that God is to blame for child raping murderers. God is not the author f sin, man sins because he inherited a sin nature from father Adam. If God doesn't kill the person and give him a new Spirit, he will remain wicked and bring damnation upon himself.

God is under no obligation to save anyone, you have noting to offer Him but a filthy stinking corpse and filthy rags. Your question is why would God save anyone, in that condition. God has nothing to do with man, He is outside of His creation, He is outside of time and space, He can't be seen and He doesn't listen to any man's prayers.

The only way anyone's prayers can reach the Father is through His Son. So God the Father remains a complete mystery we know next to nothing about Him. So asking silly questions like is mans will superior to Gods sovereign will is not a valid question. god does whatever He wats to do and man remains clueless as to how or why, so it's futile to ask those questions about Him.
 

Bible Highlighter

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This is a blast from the past. As far as KJV enthusiasts go this is their favorite conspiracy theory. Not that intrigue and errors did not happen, the conspiracy theory is that it affects most modern versions in the 20th century. Most modern translations are referencing the latest existing copies of the older manuscripts. Which makes sense….why would want to resurrect all the old problems and inaccuracies to put them in modern translations when you have more reliable examples of the original texts. But still I can understand why people are duped into this because there is a lot of information floating around…..but is all KJV only people promoting these conspiracies theories, even saying that modern versions are based on Westcott and Hort's work.
So the quote I gave you is inaccurate to what Westcott and Hort said? You are unable to read the half title page I told you about for the Revised Version? I cannot help you if you are unable to figure it out, my friend.

As for your claim that the Nestle and Aland is not largely related to the Westcott and Hort 1881 NT Greek:

Well, Textual Critic Eldon Jay Epp believes the Nestle and Aland text barely differs from the Westcott and Hort text.

Here is a quote from Textual Critic Eldon Jay Epp:

The thing to see is that the text of 100 years ago (i.e., in 1980, the text of 1881, Hort’s compilation) is barely different from the text being published as the 28th edition of Novum Testamentum Graece. To offer up-to-date evidence of this point, I have made a fresh comparison of the 1881 compilation and the current edition of the Nestle-Aland compilation….” ~ Quote by: Eldon Jay Epp.​

You can find out Eldon Jay Epp’s compilation study or findings here. Please keep in mind he is no KJV advocate but he is in defense of Modern Scholarship.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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This is a blast from the past. As far as KJV enthusiasts go this is their favorite conspiracy theory. Not that intrigue and errors did not happen, the conspiracy theory is that it affects most modern versions in the 20th century. Most modern translations are referencing the latest existing copies of the older manuscripts. Which makes sense….why would want to resurrect all the old problems and inaccuracies to put them in modern translations when you have more reliable examples of the original texts. But still I can understand why people are duped into this because there is a lot of information floating around…..but is all KJV only people promoting these conspiracies theories, even saying that modern versions are based on Westcott and Hort's work.
In addition, both the Westcott and Hort 1881 NT Greek and the Nestle and Aland 28th edition have Vaticanus and Sinaiticus primacy. Meaning these two manuscripts are given significant weight in both the Westcott and Hort Greek (which was used for the Revised Version) and the Nestle and Aland 28th edition. Yes, there are other additions in the apparatus, but it still gives primacy to Vaticanus and Sinaiticus.

Even Modern Scholars will agree on this last point I brought up here. KJV advocates follow the Textus Receptus for the NT Greek. You follow primarily the Vaticanus and Sinaiticus (for the NT Greek), if you are for Modern Scholarship.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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It mostly it is about conspiracy theories that modern translators have malicious intent and somehow the left is running the show...And everybody is lying.
James White in his book that attacks the KJV-only belief, he mislabels people who are not even KJV-only as being so. So he is falsely slandering others. He also has lied about Erasmus. Granted, I am sure there are some scholars who may not lie. But there are deceptions in the Modern Bible Movement, nonetheless. Modern Bible Advocates say that the Scriptures are inspired as if there is such a thing in the present, but then they backpedal and say that they are only inspired in the originals. They do many things like this without even realizing it. Modern BIble Advocates say we are gaining more manuscripts than ever before. Again, this is not true but a lie. Even Dan Wallace says we lost 1 million manuscripts approximately in World War 2. We also lost manuscripts in the London fire in 1666. I could keep going but you don’t think deceptions and lies by others exist? Very odd.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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It is truly sad people just reject verifiable information that defends the KJV / TR over the lies of scholars that cannot be verified as being true. Again, it’s like the Media in the Leftist machine. People just believe the Media blindly and they do not do their own homework and check out to see if what they say is true. Some are so dug into believing what they desire to believe that they cannot see the forest from the trees.

IMG_3522.png
 
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Johann

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It is truly sad people just reject verifiable information that defends the KJV / TR over the lies of scholars that cannot be verified as being true. Again, it’s like the Media in the Leftist machine. People just believe the Media blindly and they do not do their own homework and check out to see if what they say is true. Some are so dug into believing what they desire to believe that they cannot see the forest from the trees.

View attachment 48758
The Scriptures say, "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee" (Hosea 4:6 KJV). We are warned, "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good" (1 Thessalonians 5:21 KJV) and "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth" (2 Timothy 2:15 KJV). As the Bereans did, "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so" (Acts 17:11 KJV). For those who are blinded, "And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God" (2 Corinthians 4:3-4 KJV).

Stay blessed brother--you have done your homework and sharing links but there is a "eerie silence" from the Other side--I say again, from the other side.

In agreement with Hannah Arendt.

Only those who are truly born again will take heed and come together using the ONE Bible and speak with ONE voice in the sphere of ONE Spirit.

J.
 

RedFan

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Simple answer is, only the elect of God find the narrow gate. Because God draws them to the narrow gate, that's how. The rest will never find it because the narrow path is stupid to them, it makes no sense in their mind so they will never even consider entering the narrow gate.
Most everyone agrees that the gate is narrow and not everyone will enter it. But that fact alone does not support "the doctrine of election and predestination to salvation" as you claimed in Post #246

I want to be clear on what I am saying here. You say only the ELECT find the narrow gate. I say, maybe that's true and maybe that isn't true (I think it isn't, but I just don't want to get into it now), but either way, the bare fact that the gate is narrow and not everyone enters it tells us NOTHING about predestination. It could equally be true (again, I wont debate this now) that the entrants simply chose to enter by exercise of their free will, uncompelled by anything that entails a predestined outcome.

Maybe predestination is true. Let's assume it is, for purposes of this discussion. All I am saying is that the width of the gate, and the fact that salvation is not found by everyone, do not support its truth. Your theology may be spot on, but your logic isn't.
 
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St. SteVen

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St. SteVen said:
LOL
Is God such a tyrant in your opinion that he can't answer a few reasonable questions? Such an insult to our loving heavenly Father.
First of all, who are you to question anything God does. What He does with His things are His business, He owns you so He can do whatever He pleases to you and you have ZERO right to question Him.

Lucifer challenged God authority, and look what happened to Him. Why would you follow in His footsteps, why not just keep quite and obey everything He commands you to obey. You don't have the authority to put God on trial.
Thanks for proving my point. The god you described is a tyrant. Would you talk that way about your own father?

[
 
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