Open Debate Challenge on My Defending the KJV as the Perfect Word for Today in English

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Bible Highlighter

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No it's not silly, you just failed to get the context of the verse, which was clearly given for paid ministers and not garden variety Church goers. We aren't worthy to be paid for our labor because our private study only benefits us, where as when Ministers/Shepherds study it benefits all the Sheep in their flock, so they are worthy of the payment they receive from the Sheep.

All those other verses are irrelevant as none of them say, you must study scripture as some kind of commandment.

Hosea 4:6 is not to be taken literally,
My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Because you have rejected knowledge, I also will reject you from being priest for Me; Because you have forgotten the law of your God, I also will forget your children.

That verse applied to those in Hosea's day, it doesn't apply to us.
Read 2 Timothy 3:16-17. All Scripture is profitable for the man of God. There is also no verse or passage that states specifically that 2 Timothy 2:15 is exclusively to Pastors, elders, and teachers. That is you saying that. Yes, it was written to Timothy but all Scripture is profitable for the man of God. Nothing is said in any letter to Timothy that Scripture is only profitable to pastors, teachers, and elders. I also demonstrated by my posting of other verses the concept of the regular garden variety Christian as needing to learn the Word of God by my quote of Colossians, etcetera. Your hermeneutics is not defensible by your posting any verses to the contrary and I have never heard any Christians arguing for such a lone wolf or oddball interpretation. You are reading your thoughts or ideas into Scripture.

As for Hosea 4:6, again read 2 Timothy 3:16-17. While it was originally written to the Jew, it is a universal concept that still applies to the New Testament Christian because we see that believers under the New Covenant can also be destroyed by a lack of knowledge by not knowing about John 12:48, Matthew 13:41-42, and John 8:34-35. God’s people would include the Gentile now because there is no Jew or Gentile in Christ. Yes, physically, the Jew was God’s chosen nation and there are promises to them, but spiritually there is no Gentile or Jew in Christ (According to Scripture). How long have you been studying the Bible?
 

Bible Highlighter

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This post reads like you just want to smear and defame all of the people who are opponents of the Trinitarians while sweeping the sins of the Catholics and Protestants under the rug. This post lacks full disclosure and is akin to a hit piece. The Trinitarians have a dark, bloody, and violent history and their doctrines of "one God in three persons" is not even stated in Scripture.
Catholics use the Bible that does not make the Bible bad. This is the same argument you are making with the Trinity. There are many reasons why we believe the Bible and the Trinity that it teaches is true.

Check out my 4 page PDF here on a Defense of the Comma.
Note: Simply click on the image below to view.



Note: This write-up is a work in progress and so some links have not been added yet. But the YouTube videos in this PDF are really informative if you are a truth seeker. If you simply do not like the Trinity in the Bible and you don’t care for the evidence, then you can simply take the blue pill and believe whatever you want to believe.
 

Bible Highlighter

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Actually, I do know Greek.
Modern scholars can make the same claim but they could not order a pizza in Greek. In addition, the expert in Greek I mentioned to you is aware of the two grammatical issues involved in regard to the Comma (1 John 5:7), which agrees with others in history who knew Greek and stated the same thing. Do you even know who these people are?


The word in question is porneia - and it means all kinds of sexual immorality, not just fornication. And to confine the meaning in Matthew 5:32 to sex before marriage makes no sense in the context.
The Greek word "porneia" can be translated as "fornication," which often refers to sexual intercourse before marriage. While "porneia" is a broad term that covers various forms of sexual immorality, the definition can vary depending on the context within the Bible, but "fornication" is a common English translation used to describe sexual relations outside the bonds of marriage. Again, some of the KJV translators knew Greek their whole lives and were experts in it. They most likely had access to resources we do not even have today because of the London fire in 1666. Folks today are trying to make guesses on limited information. They also are not reading things in context.


Incidentally, in any language, meaning is determined by usage, not etymology.


And yet there is no Greek word that means 'Godhead', so what is it that they were actually translating?
While direct attribution of the concept of "Godhead" to the Trinity by early church fathers using that exact term isn't available due to linguistic and historical contexts, the theological foundations they laid clearly align with and support the interpretation of "Godhead" in a Trinitarian sense as understood in later theological developments, including those that influenced the translation of the KJV. This is evident if you look at the context. Again, you have to think that not all information we have today can be traced by history. Things have been lost and when that happens, you have to look at the context. In fact, today the word “Godhead” can refer to the Trinity in an English dictionary. There is a reason for that. But the Modern Scholars like to push their agenda and their interpretation on things because if they didn’t they would be out of a job. The Modern Bible Industrial Complex is big money.


The Johannine comma is famous/notorious for its absence from all ancient Greek manuscripts. Its lack of provenance makes it inadmissible as a proof-text even if you yourself believe that it's genuine. It wasn't in early editions of the Textus Receptus either, and German Bibles have never included it.
Actually, it is in German Bibles.


It is also funny that Modern Textual Critics all of a sudden become Majority Text folk when it comes to the Comma. They really are not for the Majority of manuscripts but they follow Vaticanus and Sinaiticus and a few other Alexandrian manuscripts (Which is the minority).

Also, please check out my 4 page PDF here on a Defense of the Comma.
Note: Simply click on the image below to view.



Note: Some of the links I have not added yet.

I haven't investigated a large number of modern Bibles,
You should. You will be shocked at the differences when you compare it to the KJV.


but in the NIV you will find a number of verses that clearly state Jesus' deity (e.g. John 1:18, Titus 2:13, II Peter 1:1)
There are verses that watered down in the NIV involving the deity of Jesus Christ.

#1. Revelation Twenty.

Revelation 20:12 KJB
“And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God, and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.”

Revelation 20:12 NIV
“And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the Book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.”

In Revelation 20:12 in the KJV, the word "God" is mentioned in the context of the Judgment. Jesus is quoted as saying, "For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son" (John 5:22), and the apostle Paul states, "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad" (2 Corinthians 5:10); Meaning, if we were to look at all three of these verses together, we understand that, "Jesus is God.” In other words, we know that it will be Jesus who is God who will judge all men. But this truth is obscured in Modern Bibles. For example, in the NIV, the word "God" is omitted in the judgment scene in Revelation 20:12. Therefore, this is yet another offensive or attack on our Lord Jesus Christ being God. So Modern Bibles unmistakably once again challenge the divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ.

#2. 1st Timothy Three.

1 Timothy 3:16 KJB
“And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.”

1 Timothy 3:16 NIV
“Beyond all question, the mystery from which true godliness springs is great: He appeared in the flesh, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory.”

The King James Bible presents 1 Timothy 3:16 with a powerful and unequivocal statement, emphasizing the divinity of Jesus Christ, declaring, "God was manifest in the flesh." This rendition beautifully articulates one of the core Christian beliefs that Jesus is God incarnate. This truth has been cherished for centuries by many Bible-believing Christians. However, when Modern Bible Translations appeared on the scene, they attacked what Christians held beloved for so many years. Meaning that Modern Translations attack the deity of our Lord Jesus by changing the word “God” to “He.”The NIV says, "He was manifest in the flesh” in 1 Timothy 3:16 rather than, "God was manifest in the flesh." (KJB).

There are other ones like this but I am sure it will not convince because you have Modern Translation bias. I say this because your next reply on leaving room for abortion in Modem Bibles has escaped you.


Well, the NIV should meet with your approval here then!
However, the different wording is hardly a licence for abortion. Does the Christian stance on abortion really hang on this one text? But those who want to justify abortion will do so anyway, whichever translation they use.
This is simply not dealing with reality. Sorry you are not seeing the problem here in Modern Translations. Please pray about this. It is more serious than you realize.

May the Lord Jesus Christ bless you.
 
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Deborah_

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Also, please check out my 4 page PDF here on a Defense of the Comma.
It admits that the only Greek manuscripts that include the comma are very very late (14th century or later). That is really weak evidence - especially when we have so many more early Greek manuscripts available than the KJV translators had. I'm not impressed.
 

St. SteVen

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It admits that the only Greek manuscripts that include the comma are very very late (14th century or later).
As I understand it, no Greek manuscripts include commas, or any other ENGLISH language punctuation. You are probably referring to an English translation. Right?

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Christian Soldier

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Yeah rather , men are adding things into it to try and pull and to lead us into another direction .
Folks have no idea how long progressives have been at work to remold christanity . a very long time indeed my friend .
Folks dont like something that is said so folks add too or take from it . They aint fooling this lamb .
I SEEN some of the stuff they put in and they themselves have also taken out .
I seen their footnotes and their commentaries too .
Men just doing what men have always loved to do . To form a god into their own image
one that will overlook and downplay their sins . One that might have some truths
but man it sure will twist things in order to justify man , NOT GOD .
I seen far too much my friend in these modern bibles and the stink of some of them goes beyond the clouds .
My advice , do an exodus from the modern and return to the older .
That would be great advice if it was true, but I don't accept your view about this supposed conspiracy that all the Church Fathers and Bible Scholars got together to pervert Gods Word. I just don't believe that everyone got in on the conspiracy to pervert the Bible over the past 500 years.
That's a big call, and it suggests that God hasn't had any faithful servants in the last 500 years.

There have been around 900 different English Versions of the Bible, since William Tyndale translated the Bible into the English language.
You're saying that all of the 900 versions which followed, were all perverted by Scholars who were involved in this Satanic conspiracy to pervert the Bible. All those people knew full well that God promised to cast all those that do this into the lake of fire, so they all damned themselves to the lake of fire just so they can deceive us dummies.

You should consider the fact that many Greek manuscripts dating back to the second century, were only discovered in the 1850's. They were more complete than the previous ones found, so that's where the later versions of the Bible got the extra texts from. They didn't invent them in their minds as many conspiracy theorists claim.

You can't throw the baby out with the bath water, and claim that all of the Bible Scholars and Church Fathers were involved in this 500 year long conspiracy. I'm sure some of those 900 later versions may have errors and maybe even deliberate misrepresentations, but to claim that everyone was involved is a straight out lie.
 

Christian Soldier

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Not in the way you claim. Every word god-breathed? Why does the word Easter appear in the KJV?


That saw cuts both ways. My opinion against yours.


Neither does yours.


Or not the same definition of God. I agree. You should probably be ashamed of your view of God. But I'll need more info to make my point.


The idea that God "wrote" the Bible is a HUGE assumption. Why are the Gospels named Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, if God wrote them? Have you heard of Gospel Q?


That is such a western view. - LOL
Win, win, win...


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It's quite evident we have entirely different views of who God is.

I believe in the God of the Bible, I believe the Bible is Gods Word and you don't so w part ways right there.

God said you shall live by every word that proceeds from My mouth, but you don't believe that God speaks through the Bible so you reject what God said and cling to some strange man made philosophy, rather than Gods Word.

I'm not ashamed of the gospel, I know most professing Christians like yourself reject it as it is written, so you change it to meet your expectation. Most people approach Gods Word with the view to make it conform to their preconceived ideas, instead of allowing Gods Word to shape them and change them, they force Gods Word to conform to their standards and ideas.

You can call my view of God a "western view" but you can't point to any errors or reprove my view by using scripture. You do what all those who have no foundation for their theology do. You always resort to attacking the person who exposed you, instead of defending your false doctrine.

A fool hates you for correcting him, but a wise man loves you for correcting him.
 

Christian Soldier

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Read 2 Timothy 3:16-17. All Scripture is profitable for the man of God. There is also no verse or passage that states specifically that 2 Timothy 2:15 is exclusively to Pastors, elders, and teachers. That is you saying that. Yes, it was written to Timothy but all Scripture is profitable for the man of God. Nothing is said in any letter to Timothy that Scripture is only profitable to pastors, teachers, and elders. I also demonstrated by my posting of other verses the concept of the regular garden variety Christian as needing to learn the Word of God by my quote of Colossians, etcetera. Your hermeneutics is not defensible by your posting any verses to the contrary and I have never heard any Christians arguing for such a lone wolf or oddball interpretation. You are reading your thoughts or ideas into Scripture.

As for Hosea 4:6, again read 2 Timothy 3:16-17. While it was originally written to the Jew, it is a universal concept that still applies to the New Testament Christian because we see that believers under the New Covenant can also be destroyed by a lack of knowledge by not knowing about John 12:48, Matthew 13:41-42, and John 8:34-35. God’s people would include the Gentile now because there is no Jew or Gentile in Christ. Yes, physically, the Jew was God’s chosen nation and there are promises to them, but spiritually there is no Gentile or Jew in Christ (According to Scripture). How long have you been studying the Bible?
Your interpretation of 2 Timothy 3:16-17 is perverted, because you failed to understand the context of the word "profitable". You applied that word to mean making money, while the context has nothing to do with money so your interpretation doesn't make any sense.

2 Timothy 2:15 doesn't specifically list all the workers by title, who deserve to be paid but you need to connect the dots. The bible doesn't specifically mention that heroin s bad but if you connect the dots you will work it out.

Why does Paul call them "workers", he never used that term to describe ordinary garden variety Sheep like you and me. A worker is someone you pay to do some work for you, you don't pay a dumb Sheep to do his private study because you get nothing out of his private study. He is the only one who profits from his private study.

It's really not that complicated to connect dots, don't be afraid to try it some time. You may be surprised at what you can learn, when you try. Your stubborn attitude to leaning new things hinders your growth, so you should ditch your pride and embrace Gods Word as he spoke it and not the way you think He should have spoke it.

Hosea 4:6 and other scriptures which seem to suggest that Gods people can be destroyed, must not be taken as a loss of salvation type of destruction. Because we have hundreds of verses which make it clear that it's impossible to destroy Gods people in that sense. So those scriptures can only be referring to Gods people being killed bodily and that's OK, Gods people are still being killed everyday for lack of knowledge.

Eating a bad diet and dying of heart disease or cancer is destruction through lack of knowledge, but it's not a loss of salvation.
 

Bible Highlighter

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Your interpretation of 2 Timothy 3:16-17 is perverted, because you failed to understand the context of the word "profitable". You applied that word to mean making money, while the context has nothing to do with money so your interpretation doesn't make any sense.

2 Timothy 2:15 doesn't specifically list all the workers by title, who deserve to be paid but you need to connect the dots. The bible doesn't specifically mention that heroin s bad but if you connect the dots you will work it out.

Why does Paul call them "workers", he never used that term to describe ordinary garden variety Sheep like you and me. A worker is someone you pay to do some work for you, you don't pay a dumb Sheep to do his private study because you get nothing out of his private study. He is the only one who profits from his private study.

It's really not that complicated to connect dots, don't be afraid to try it some time. You may be surprised at what you can learn, when you try. Your stubborn attitude to leaning new things hinders your growth, so you should ditch your pride and embrace Gods Word as he spoke it and not the way you think He should have spoke it.

Hosea 4:6 and other scriptures which seem to suggest that Gods people can be destroyed, must not be taken as a loss of salvation type of destruction. Because we have hundreds of verses which make it clear that it's impossible to destroy Gods people in that sense. So those scriptures can only be referring to Gods people being killed bodily and that's OK, Gods people are still being killed everyday for lack of knowledge.

Eating a bad diet and dying of heart disease or cancer is destruction through lack of knowledge, but it's not a loss of salvation.
And this is why this conversation with you is not going to continue. You have assumed something wrong about what I believe (when I stated no such thing). I did not say 2 Timothy 3:16-17 is referring to making money.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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It admits that the only Greek manuscripts that include the comma are very very late (14th century or later). That is really weak evidence - especially when we have so many more early Greek manuscripts available than the KJV translators had. I'm not impressed.
Sorry, I don’t isolate myself to just the Greek. The Bible is my authority first. If there is manuscript evidence, then a true investigator will look at the early church writers, the Latin, the Greek, and the internal evidence (like the grammar and the context).
 

Grailhunter

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Sorry, I trust the KJV translators. Some of them actually knew the original languages. You do not know them, dear sir.

The KJV is the most inaccurate translation in print. And if you go find out why porneia cannot be translated to fornication you will find out a lot of things along the way.
 

Christian Soldier

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And this is why this conversation with you is not going to continue. This is the second time you have assumed something wrong about what I believe (when I stated no such thing). I did not say 2 Timothy 3:16-17 is referring to making money.
I like your style, you simply deny the charges made against you but you never provide any evidence to support your not guilty plea.
My position is backed by the Word of God and not just incoherent speculation, a yours is.

You haven't state what you believe 2 Timothy 3:16-17 you just stoop down to attacking the person who has bought the charges against you, instead of defending your position. Bravo
 

Bible Highlighter

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I like your style, you simply deny the charges made against you but you never provide any evidence to support your not guilty plea.
My position is backed by the Word of God and not just incoherent speculation, a yours is.

You haven't state what you believe 2 Timothy 3:16-17 you just stoop down to attacking the person who has bought the charges against you, instead of defending your position. Bravo
I am not setting out to attack you. You just stated something false about me. So I am pointing that fact out. Again, you stated erroneously that I believe 2 Timothy 3:16-17 is about making money. I said no such thing. I am stating what the passage says itself. It is saying that all Scripture is profitable (beneficial) for doctrine, reproof, and instruction in righteousness that the man of God may be perfect unto every good work. Man of God and not soley elders, or pastors, or teachers. This is for the man of God. All believers can find all of Scripture useful for doctrine, reproof and instruction in righteousness. That’s what it says.
 

Bible Highlighter

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Your interpretation of 2 Timothy 3:16-17 is perverted, because you failed to understand the context of the word "profitable". You applied that word to mean making money, while the context has nothing to do with money so your interpretation doesn't make any sense.

2 Timothy 2:15 doesn't specifically list all the workers by title, who deserve to be paid but you need to connect the dots. The bible doesn't specifically mention that heroin s bad but if you connect the dots you will work it out.

Why does Paul call them "workers", he never used that term to describe ordinary garden variety Sheep like you and me. A worker is someone you pay to do some work for you, you don't pay a dumb Sheep to do his private study because you get nothing out of his private study. He is the only one who profits from his private study.

It's really not that complicated to connect dots, don't be afraid to try it some time. You may be surprised at what you can learn, when you try. Your stubborn attitude to leaning new things hinders your growth, so you should ditch your pride and embrace Gods Word as he spoke it and not the way you think He should have spoke it.

Hosea 4:6 and other scriptures which seem to suggest that Gods people can be destroyed, must not be taken as a loss of salvation type of destruction. Because we have hundreds of verses which make it clear that it's impossible to destroy Gods people in that sense. So those scriptures can only be referring to Gods people being killed bodily and that's OK, Gods people are still being killed everyday for lack of knowledge.

Eating a bad diet and dying of heart disease or cancer is destruction through lack of knowledge, but it's not a loss of salvation.
Your interpretation here is way far out there in left field, dear sir. I tried my best to explain how it is false but it appears you just want to see what you desire to see.

In fact, I cannot be the first Christian to say that your interpretation is basically way off and or very odd and strange.

So I will leave you be.

May God bless you.
 

Christian Soldier

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I am not setting out to attack you. You just stated something false about me. So I am pointing that fact out. Again, you stated erroneously that I believe 2 Timothy 3:16-17 is about making money. I said no such thing. I am stating what the passage says itself. It is saying that all Scripture is profitable (beneficial) for doctrine, reproof, and instruction in righteousness that the man of God may be perfect unto every good work. Man of God and not soley elders, or pastors, or teachers. This is for the man of God. All believers can find all of Scripture useful for doctrine, reproof and instruction in righteousness. That’s what it says.
I called you out for trying to use 2 Timothy 3:16-17 to justify your view that 2 Timothy 2:15 is a general exhortation to all Christians.
I pointed out that, 2 Timothy 2:15 was directed at Timothy as he was training to be a Minister and Paul encouraged him to be diligent, saying a worker is worthy of his reward. I said ordinary Christians are not workers for the gospel, our occupation is not to minister the gospel.

We have day jobs, like Doctors, Motor Mechanics, Plumbers etc..., we can't dedicate ourselves to full time ministry while holding full time jobs.

We should all devote time to bible study, both as individuals and in groups with at least one Minister to lead the study. But our study is not as important as that of one studying to become a Minister, if we get something wrong it doesn't effect anyone except ourselves, but if a Minister gets it wrong, his whole congregation suffers under false doctrine.
 

Christian Soldier

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Your interpretation here is way far out there in left field, dear sir. I tried my best to explain how it is false but it appears you just want to see what you desire to see.

In fact, I cannot be the first Christian to say that your interpretation is basically way off and or very odd and strange.

So I will leave you be.

May God bless you.
You didn't explain why my interpretation is false, all you did was cite unrelated scriptures and try to apply them to support a your vie of what 2 Timothy 2:15 is saying.

You're welcome to run along and join the crowd, I guess the crowd feels there's safety in numbers. But my Lord teaches His children not to follow the crowd. So I wis you lots of luck, on your wide road with the crowd.
 

St. SteVen

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It's quite evident we have entirely different views of who God is.

I believe in the God of the Bible, I believe the Bible is Gods Word and you don't so w part ways right there.
Your views are only your personal opinion, as are mine. There is no consensus on what the Bible says.

Very wrong of you to trash me over a difference of opinion.


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St. SteVen

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It's quite evident we have entirely different views of who God is.
Indeed. You should be ashamed. But here you are...
Would you surrender your doctrine in the name of unity? Neither would I. So...


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