Once Saved Always Saved

[Curtis]

Willful sin refers to more than just unbelief...

What this is saying is that those who engage in willful sin do so as the result of unbelief.

But it can consist of such things as uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness.

We must repent of sin.

The willful sin passage isn’t about unbelief. It’s about those believers who know they are sinning, but go on doing it anyway, without repenting of it - drunkenness, or adultery with a mistres, for an example - and since believers must confess their sins, when they commit one, to have them forgiven per 1 John 1:9 - as long as they remain in willful sin with no repentance, those sins are not forgiven, the sacrifice of Jesus for their sins no longer applies to them... and if they should die with those unforgiven sins, they will end up in hell.

 

[GracePeace]

The willful sin passage isn’t about unbelief. It’s about those believers who know they are sinning, but go on doing it anyway, without repenting of it - drunkenness, or adultery with a mistres, for an example - and since believers must confess their sins, when they commit one, to have them forgiven per 1 John 1:9 - as long as they remain in willful sin with no repentance, those sins are not forgiven, the sacrifice of Jesus for their sins no longer applies to them... and if they should die with those unforgiven sins, they will end up in hell.

When it compares the penalty ("how much sorer") for those who "go on sinning" under the Messianic Covenant against the penalty ("died without mercy") under the Mosaic Covenant, don't you get the idea that there could actually be a point at which a person could arrive in their offense against God that God could be so offended that He could make His mind up to destroy them Hebrews 6:4-8?

Under the Mosaic Covenant, there were sins you could apologize for committing, but there were other sins for which there was no protocol except your death--in the same way, isn't it referring to a crime, an offense, for which the only protocol is spiritual death?

 

[Corlove13]

The willful sin passage isn’t about unbelief. It’s about those believers who know they are sinning, but go on doing it anyway, without repenting of it - drunkenness, or adultery with a mistres, for an example - and since believers must confess their sins, when they commit one, to have them forgiven per 1 John 1:9 - as long as they remain in willful sin with no repentance, those sins are not forgiven, the sacrifice of Jesus for their sins no longer applies to them... and if they should die with those unforgiven sins, they will end up in hell.

Hi,
I do not agree....
I believe to sin willfully....in the Hebrews passage is missing the mark....which is Christ. For I believe whatever is not of faith is sin.....and the law is not of faith.

"And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin."
Romans 14


Gal 3;12 ....The law is not based on faith;...

And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
I agree with @Behold that "walking in the Spirit" is not anything to do with trying to be a good Christian.

It is simply being the child of God that the Christian is.

I know you agree....lol
But I agree with this passage
2 cor 5;21

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Yes I definitely agree and believe that and all scriptures for that matter.

When I said “It is simply being the child of God that the Christian is.”, I meant to say that “walking in the Spirit” is the nature of the child of God. The point being is that, it is who they are and how they behave. So, they don’t try doing that.

In every child of God, the Spirit of God dwells, who directs his ways and guards his heart. That being, no child of God really is not good. For He who is good is in him. To speak of the child of God to be not good, I consider, blasphemous.

However, the situation is, the child of God is still with a “body of death”, that is, sinful flesh, where sin still dwells in. So, the matter is, the evil sin that is still there ever wars against the good Spirit that dwells in him. That puts the child of God daily to be at war with sin, and that is going on within him, invisible to the human eyes of those who are of the world. They do not know that that is going on in him. But the children of God knows that. And every now and then, the child of God, mostly in his infancy, weak as he still is, is overtaken by sin. When a mature child sees his brother sinning, in love he goes to him to his aid ~ reminding, exhorting, rebuking. So we see the apostles doing just that towards the brethren during their time. And obviously it is not so that they will remain saved, but for a lot of good reasons. It is part of caring and loving one another in the family of God.

Tong
R3096

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
I agree with @Behold that "walking in the Spirit" is not anything to do with trying to be a good Christian.

It is simply being the child of God that the Christian is.

Another thing is you dont try to do both...one happens because [in alignment] of the other...and they definitely have a relationship..because we fullfill the Law through obedience.

What both?

Tong
R3097

 

[GracePeace]

Hi,
I do not agree....
I believe to sin willfully....in the Hebrews passage is missing the mark....which is Christ. For I believe whatever is not of faith is sin.....and the law is not of faith.

"And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin."
Romans 14


Gal 3;12 ....The law is not based on faith;...

And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

The passage isn't about unbelief in Jesus, but I do believe you could argue that because "sin", under the New Covenant, is broadly defined as acts which do not comport with one's convictions Romans 14:5 it is an issue of doubt but that is not unbelief in Jesus strictly speaking (though I believe evil deeds do have the effect of 'denying God'--"they claim to know God but in their works they deny Him").

 

[Corlove13]

Hi,
I do not agree....
I believe to sin willfully....in the Hebrews passage is missing the mark....which is Christ. For I believe whatever is not of faith is sin.....and the law is not of faith.

"And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin."
Romans 14


Gal 3;12 ....The law is not based on faith;...

And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

Hi,
I do not agree....
I believe to sin willfully....in the Hebrews passage is missing the mark....which is Christ. For I believe whatever is not of faith is sin.....and the law is not of faith.

"And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin."
Romans 14


Gal 3;12 ....The law is not based on faith;...

And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

Under the Law there are no sacrifices that remain...because Christ fullfilled the law....
So if one decide to go back to it they need to keep all the laws....and if they break one....then they would have no covering.
There also, one might see that there is no repentance rejecting what you are to turn to.....

 

[Corlove13]

Yes I definitely agree and believe that and all scriptures for that matter.

When I said “It is simply being the child of God that the Christian is.”, I meant to say that “walking in the Spirit” is the nature of the child of God. The point being is that, it is who they are and how they behave. So, they don’t try doing that.

In every child of God, the Spirit of God dwells, who directs his ways and guards his heart. That being, no child of God really is not good. For He who is good is in him. To speak of the child of God to be not good, I consider, blasphemous.

However, the situation is, the child of God is still with a “body of death”, that is, sinful flesh, where sin still dwells in. So, the matter is, the evil sin that is still there ever wars against the good Spirit that dwells in him. That puts the child of God daily to be at war with sin, and that is going on within him, invisible to the human eyes of those who are of the world. They do not know that that is going on in him. But the children of God knows that. And every now and then, the child of God, mostly in his infancy, weak as he still is, is overtaken by sin. When a mature child sees his brother sinning, in love he goes to him to his aid ~ reminding, exhorting, rebuking. So we see the apostles doing just that towards the brethren during their time. And obviously it is not so that they will remain saved, but for a lot of good reasons. It is part of caring and loving one another in the family of God.

Tong
R3096

I don't recall the conversation

 

[Tong2020]

It's simple : the people who hold to traditions of men detest God's Word. They know they're in error but they hate the truth and won't confess it because they think if they don't admit they're wrong they can still try to convince others that they are (worthy of praise) "correct".
Some of them just say "I know I know God, so I can't be wrong," not realizing God doesn't wait for someone to have perfect theology to be with them (so His being with them isn't an affirmation of everything they believe).

Agree. Though, we really can’t say for certain why they do what they do and behave how they behave. The Christian just ought to share God’s words in scriptures to others, be they brethren or not. For the word of God is living and powerful.

Tong
R3098

 

[GracePeace]

I don't recall the conversation

I don't know why anyone would say "the child of God is still with a 'body of death', that is, sinful flesh, where sin still dwells in" when according to Romans 6:6 He brought the body of sin to nothing, and Christ "delivers us from the body of sin and death" Romans 7:25, Romans 8:2... oh yeah Calvinists have the tradition of reading Romans 7:7-24 as if it were a Christian's life (despite the facts : Romans 7:5 "when we were in the flesh" is the lifestyle described therein, but Romans 8:9 "you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit").

 

[Curtis]

Second, just because you were a partaker of the Holy Spirit and exp

To be a partaker of the Holy Spirit is to receive Him, (he’s not an IT, but a Him), and only Christians get the HS, thus the passage is talking about believers, who deliberately keep doing a particular sin that they know is wrong, and wont repent because they want to keep doing it, thus willfully sin - then the sacrifice of Jesus for their sins no longer is in effect.

 

[Corlove13]

Yes I definitely agree and believe that and all scriptures for that matter.

When I said “It is simply being the child of God that the Christian is.”, I meant to say that “walking in the Spirit” is the nature of the child of God.
I 'd probably asked what makes one a child of God?

The point being is that, it is who they are and how they behave. So, they don’t try doing that.

In every child of God, the Spirit of God dwells, who directs his ways and guards his heart. That being, no child of God really is not good. For He who is good is in him. To speak of the child of God to be not good, I consider, blasphemous.



However, the situation is, the child of God is still with a “body of death”, that is, sinful flesh, where sin still dwells in. So, the matter is, the evil sin that is still there ever wars against the good Spirit that dwells in him. That puts the child of God daily to be at war with sin, and that is going on within him, invisible to the human eyes of those who are of the world. They do not know that that is going on in him. But the children of God knows that. And every now and then, the child of God, mostly in his infancy, weak as he still is, is overtaken by sin. When a mature child sees his brother sinning, in love he goes to him to his aid ~ reminding, exhorting, rebuking. So we see the apostles doing just that towards the brethren during their time. And obviously it is not so that they will remain saved, but for a lot of good reasons. It is part of caring and loving one another in the family of God. Doing what pleases God stays on the path of righteousness...righteousness is still the Standard that pleases God.....


Tong
R3096

The willful sin passage isn’t about unbelief. It’s about those believers who know they are sinning, but go on doing it anyway, without repenting of it - drunkenness, or adultery with a mistres, for an example - and since believers must confess their sins, when they commit one, to have them forgiven per 1 John 1:9 - as long as they remain in willful sin with no repentance, those sins are not forgiven, the sacrifice of Jesus for their sins no longer applies to them... and if they should die with those unforgiven sins, they will end up in hell.

Suppose a man or woman is discovered among you – in one of your villages 3 that the Lord your God is giving you – who sins before the Lord your God 4 and breaks his covenant 17:3by serving other gods and worshiping them – the sunn 5 moon, or any other heavenly bodies which I have not permitted you to worship. 6 17:4When it is reported to you and you hear about it, you must investigate carefully. If it is indeed true that such a disgraceful thing 7 is being done in Israel, you must bring to your city gates 8 that man or woman who has done this wicked thing – that very man or woman – and you must stone that person to death. 9 At the testimony of two or three witnesses they must be executed.
Duet

 

[Tong2020]

2 Peter 1 is no help to OSAS, but actually refutes it.

Peter wrote that we have to make our calling and election sure, by choosing to add to our faith the things he lists, so that IF we do that, we bear fruit, and then will never fall.

That’s a conditional statement and it dovetails perfectly with Jesus’ warning that He is the vine, we are the branches, and any branch that doesn’t bear fruit, is cut off the vine as a dead branch, and burned.

You also only partially quoted the passage by Jesus, wherein He lists reasons why some don’t believe at all when they hear the word, but others believe, but only for a while, and then fall away.

And Paul said he has to subjugate his body - his flesh - and control himself daily, lest after preaching salvation to others, he himself end up a reprobate, then warns believers to examine themselves to see whether they are in the faith, or are reprobates.

Then Jesus warned the church at Sardis that the church has become dead, because most of them had defiled their white robes, which scripture says are the righteousness of saints, and tells them to repent, and become overcomes, so He won’t blot their names out of the book of life.

That’s only a small start of refuting OSAS.

Let’s consider these truths concerning the children of God, who now stand in the grace of God, saved by grace.

1. They have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them.
2. They are not their own as they were bought at a price. They are Christ’s. They are God’s.
3. They were predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ.
4. They shall not be separated from the love of Christ.
5. They were predestined to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to God.
6. They have in Christ obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of God.

If one considers all those, how could one deny the assurance of their salvation, those who now stand in the grace of God, saved by grace? The above truths only shows that those who arrive at a conclusion that their salvation could be lost, are mistaken and errs in their understanding of certain passages.

Tong
R3099

 

[Tong2020]

Not true at all.

Jesus taught that some believe only for a while, then fall away.

Jesus warned those in the church at Sardis that they were a dead church, and that most of them had defiled their white robes, which scripture says are the righteousness of saints, told them to repent, and become overcomers, so He won’t blot their names out of the book of life.

<<<Jesus taught that some believe only for a while, then fall away.>>>

Reference scriptures please. What do you mean exactly by fall away?

Regarding the church in Sardis, the issue there is what the book of life is. It deserves another thread I think.

Tong
R3100

 

[Tong2020]

The father said of His son when he came back in repentance: this is my son WHO WAS DEAD but now is alive AGAIN.

While the prodigal was living in sin in the world, he was dead in his sins. Ephesians 2:1.

He obviously didn’t die physically and resurrect - he died spiritually in his sins.

I think the point of @Pearl is that a son remains to be a son regardless.

Tong
R3101

 

[Tong2020]

Scripture clearly shows that continuing to remain in Christ is conditional on us 1) continuing to walk in the light, as He is in the light, and 2) continuing to walk after the spirit, instead of after the flesh.

In the two verses below, I put in parentheses the conditional part of these scriptures that are always left out by hyper-grace, OSAS teachers.

1Jn 1:7 But (IF we walk in the light, as he is in the light), we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

The blood of Jesus cleansing the believer is conditional on their choosing to continue to walk in the light, as He is in the light.

Does that mean you are yet not cleansed, not until the end of your days, if you have complied with the condition?

Next:

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, (who walk NOT AFTER THE FLESH, , but after the Spirit).

Having no condemnation, and remaining in Christ, is conditional upon continuing to walk after the Spirit, and not after the flesh.

Those which you put in parenthesis are not spoken as conditions in the passage, but as a qualifier or description of them who are in Christ.

And Paul warns us against being deceived about living in sin as a believer, when he wrote:

Gal 6:7 Be Not DECEIVED ; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man SOWETH,that shall he also REAP.

Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; BUT he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting

You reap everlasting life only if you sow to the spirit (walk after the Spirit, Romans 8:1) , but reap spiritual death if you sow to your flesh.

When we do occasionally sin, we must confess it, for God to forgive it. 1 John 1:9.

Regarding sowing and reaping, we sow and we reap, but it is God who makes the plant grow and bears fruit.

Tong
R3102

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Perhaps. In such, is it the OT that sheds light about Jesus Christ or is it Jesus Christ that sheds light to the OT?

In Galatians the law is said to be a school master.[tutor]..until Chtist.

And Christ had already come, even some 2000+ years ago.

Tong
R3103

 

[Tong2020]

The willful sin passage isn’t about unbelief. It’s about those believers who know they are sinning, but go on doing it anyway, without repenting of it - drunkenness, or adultery with a mistres, for an example - and since believers must confess their sins, when they commit one, to have them forgiven per 1 John 1:9 - as long as they remain in willful sin with no repentance, those sins are not forgiven, the sacrifice of Jesus for their sins no longer applies to them... and if they should die with those unforgiven sins, they will end up in hell.

<<<and if they should die with those unforgiven sins, they will end up in hell.>>>

Them ending up in hell, means they were not among those whom God predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ.

Tong
R3104

 

[Tong2020]

Hi,
I do not agree....
I believe to sin willfully....in the Hebrews passage is missing the mark....which is Christ. For I believe whatever is not of faith is sin.....and the law is not of faith.

"And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin."
Romans 14


Gal 3;12 ....The law is not based on faith;...

And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

<<<I believe whatever is not of faith is sin.....and the law is not of faith.>>>

Correct and indisputable.

Tong
R3105

 

[Curtis]

They say they do, but never live by it, and never fully believed it. Jesus even talked about such in his parables about stony and shallow ground.

Yes He did, and He made it clear that some believe, but only for awhile, then FALL AWAY.

In Luke 8 Jesus tells the parable of the sower who sows the seed of the word of God.


Some seed sown lands on a rock. The seed GROWS, and results in new life, but then it withers and dies.


Jesus makes it clear that in the example of the seed sown on a rock, that it shows that some people BELIEVE for a while, but then FALL AWAY.


Luk 8:5 A sower went out to sow his seed...


Luk 8:6 And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture.


Luk 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, *receive the word with joy*; and these have no root, which FOR A WHILE BELIEVE, and in time of temptation FALL AWAY.


Notice above, they *received the word with joy*


To receive the word with joy, is to become a follower of Jesus Christ:


1Th 1:6 And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost.


Some believe for a while, then fall away - it’s indisputable.

 

[Curtis]

<<<and if they should die with those unforgiven sins, they will end up in hell.>>>

Them ending up in hell, means they were not among those whom God predestined to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ.

Tong
R3104

God predestined that believers will be conformed to the image of His son - He did not predetermine or predestined who will believe.