Of Fox Holes and Doctrinal Machine Guns

[Justin Mangonel]

Dear B,

We have sunk to a new low...

Blessings,

Justin

 

[Niki]

Not at all.

Answer a fool according to his folly. Really.

For a false doctrine monger, I think it quite appropriate.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Justin ..... I have made a few comments in red below .... thanks .... Arnie

When speaking to people about the Bible I have noticed that some refuse to move an inch from their viewpoints and merely machine gun you with doctrinal bullets every time you seem to threaten their position. I encounter this type of behavior all the time and it seems that people think that this amounts to a discussion when in reality is it more of a statement of faith. They say they are open to understand new viewpoints but the are deluding themselves. The truth is that many would rather kill or be killed than give up their present doctrinal position.
To be fair Justin ... many cults and false teachers operate just an inch from the truth .... and for that reason many folks are afraid to budge an inch from their doctrine ... not everybody is capable of good bible study so they simply stand firm in what they already know (or were taught)


Some people can literally bury a discussion in scripture and the volume of their writing. However, volume of scripture quoted does not necessarily impress me. Many times people quote scripture whole sections of the Bible that they think supports their viewpoint when it really doesn’t.
I agree completely

The question I am try to answer is “what are we really accomplishing and what spirit are we of?”
For me personally I find it a healthy exercise to discuss and debate with someone in case I have "missed something" ..... I may initially reject and bash .... but if the other person can point out things I overlooked I will admit it and agree .... I have learned some of my "hardest lessons" that way

. Having had a foretaste of the next move of the Spirit I desperately want to go back over Jordan but I cannot do so without the bulk of my brethren crossing with me.
I may be completely off base here .... but it sounds as though you are desiring a "following" of people to accompany you ..... it gives a person a sense of security if they can convince other to follow them .... many cults and groups begin that way .... we must be cautious.

So, I don’t really don’t know what to do with these types of people other than leave them alone. The word does not get to them, the spirit does not seem to impact them, they are immovable and proud of it. Many seem to have a bit of ability in the word, which is commendable, but it seems that they are so married to their way of looking at things that nothing can shake them loose in the slightest. They are hunkered down in their theological fox hole and no amount of persuasion is going to move them. Unless I come and sit in their fox hole with them it seems there can be little fellowship.
You make a fantastic point that I have pondered many times as well and here is my conclusion .... the so called "small errors" in their doctrine will not keep them out of heaven .... so with that in mind we could just "let them be" and no real harm done ..... TROUBLE IS ... those same folks will publicly proclaim they are correct on a regular basis and that is why we try to step in with corrections so others are not mislead ..... then the fireworks in the foxhole begins anew.

It is like their minds are slammed shut and nobody can reach them. I do not have a solution

Thanks
Arnie

 

[Justin Mangonel]

Dear A,

Yes, point well taken...sometimes cults, like the Mormons, side up to the truth to give them credibility and then twist it to their own ends.

I think many people are that way, initially bash but then re-consider. If a person can eventually come to the truth that way I say more power to them. Although, I don't like to be bashed all that much. My last great doctrinal correction was realizing that there was no way that Jesus was going to let Israel accept him...he knew He had to die for the sins of the world. Previously, I thought that it was possible for Israel to accept Jesus and enter into the millennium right then and there. I realize I was incorrect.

You advise caution as to the Tabernacle movement. Yet, you do not advise caution to the unsaved who are witnessed too. Why? Well, it is because you are fully convinced of the truth of salvation both through experience and through how you read the scriptures. I am an evangelist for Tabernacles because I have both experienced it and found it to be true in the scriptures. It is a wonderful blessing and I do want others to enter into to it also. Sometimes you witness to people who are hard of heart and they dispise the pearls of great price you wish to give them. Other times you find those whom God has prepared and they accept God's gifts with joy and thankfulness.

My solution to slammed shut minds is the Spirit. I think if they experienced the Spirit then they would gain courage to consider what is being said. Faith comes by hearing and I am beginning to think that the truths I share need to be spoken to people in their hearing so that the Holy Spirit can work upon their hearts and thus open their minds. In other words I have to start teaching these things in person.

I am not trying to arm wrestle you Arnie but rather present to you a truth and it way awesome. It is not necessary that you accept or even fully understand what I am saying now. If this is an actual seed of truth from God then it will slowly take root and perhaps in time grow and bear much fruit.

Blessings,

Justin

 

[laid renard]

Dear A,

Yes, point well taken...sometimes cults, like the Mormons, side up to the truth to give them credibility and then twist it to their own ends.

The Mormons can be called a cult ? I didn't know that. :) I thought they were a false religion.
You see I kinda have them separated in my mind. That is, a false religion being a group that is trying to interpret God's word, only missing the mark waaaay off haha.
Or even intentionally creating a falsehood, but still, concerning God.

And I always saw a cult as a group that had it's members worshiping something totally separate from the God. Like someone who has their people worship meditation and inward mystical stuff, or satan, or even the leader of the group his or herself. Like the Sri Rajnishi Yogi cult. He had his group worshiping him. (I think I spelled his name right.)
Anyway, when I lived in Oregon in the 80's, him and his cult lived right up the road from me !! :wacko: Every once in a while a member or two would walk down to visit the general store. They made such a stir in that small community that the news did an expose on them. They dressed in orange satan pajama type clothes. :huh:


And cowboy hats.


Just kidding about the hats.


Anyway, to me, that's a cult. And the Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses are false religions. Does this make any sense ??

Or am I splitting hairs ?? :unsure: :lol:

 

[aspen]

a cult is a religious group that breaks away from a larger group. mormons are a protestant cult. technically christians started out as a jewish cult. one person,s sect is another person's cult depending on perspective

 

[Justin Mangonel]

Dear L,

Actually, I consider most Mormon's to be saved but their organization is really off. Many think that Momonism is a cult and I was just using that as an example. I can see you point though.

Blessings,

Justin

 

[laid renard]

a cult is a religious group that breaks away from a larger group. mormons are a protestant cult. technically christians started out as a jewish cult. one person,s sect is another person's cult depending on perspective

Wow, that confused me lol ! Do you mean that a cult can be a good thing (cause that's what Christianity is by this definition) ? Seems that the meaning changed as centuries went by.... as people started to accept Christ.

Dear L,

Actually, I consider most Mormon's to be saved but their organization is really off. Many think that Momonism is a cult and I was just using that as an example. I can see you point though.

Blessings,

Justin

Yes, me too. They believe in Jesus, but don't they also consider him to be an angel or something like that ? Or am I thinking of another false religion ? One of them does.....

 

[aspen]

L

The word cult has always been a negative word used by the dominate group. It really isn't bad or good because all religions start somewhere. I think using the word tells us more about the position of the people using it the ham the people being labelled with the word.

I love your quote btw - God can definitely undo everything the devil has done and what we have done and He will always make things better than they originally were.

 

[Justin Mangonel]

Dear L,

I live among Mormons and I truly believe that most love God and Jesus as their savior. However, the church the belong to is a terrible monstrosity of control and false doctrine which orders almost every part of their life. The good news is that they are steadily moving from their roots of abject falsehood towards more mainline Christianity.

Blessings,

Justin