Of Fox Holes and Doctrinal Machine Guns

[Justin Mangonel]

Dear All,

When speaking to people about the Bible I have noticed that some refuse to move an inch from their viewpoints and merely machine gun you with doctrinal bullets every time you seem to threaten their position. I encounter this type of behavior all the time and it seems that people think that this amounts to a discussion when in reality is it more of a statement of faith. They say they are open to understand new viewpoints but the are deluding themselves. The truth is that many would rather kill or be killed than give up their present doctrinal position.

I understand that many consider themselves defenders of the faith and that I am not particularly gifted in that way. My gifting tends more towards revelation. However, I do know that at least some of what I say is very true while other things are more questionable. However, it seems from what others say, even though they sometimes do so in a most pleasant manor, that they are very “set” in their doctrine and believe that they must hold their position at all costs. Some say “show me the scripture” and when you do they check it against their current fox hole and if it does not line up with what they believe, they open fire. It is a type of ruse that they employ to seem open minded and reasonable, but when you threaten to change their current position, they are not.

When iron sharpens iron both change and get better. That is what I am seeking when I discuss a topic with someone. If others are so set in their ways that anything that differs from their theology is rejected then I do not see what we can hope to accomplish unless I swing to their view points completely.

Some people can literally bury a discussion in scripture and the volume of their writing. However, volume of scripture quoted does not necessarily impress me. Many times people quote scripture whole sections of the Bible that they think supports their viewpoint when it really doesn’t.

The question I am try to answer is “what are we really accomplishing and what spirit are we of?” I suppose, in their view, they are defending the faith and standing up for God. However, and this may be difficult to accept, I know for a fact, that in certain areas, some are in error but there seems no way to reach them, even with scriptures.

The basic problem is, that despite their doctrinal views the church, as a whole, is languishing and many are suffering. The normative doctrine that they insist must be true is what many in these sad circumstances believe. Yet for all their doctrinal “rightness” things are not getting better. The body of Christ is not maturing to a place where they can navigate the things that are going to happen soon.

The prevailing attitude for many is, “My doctrine can beat up your doctrine.” My heart is not to beat anyone’s doctrine. This is not a zero sum game for me. With those who are rigid in their doctrine their is no give possible and I we could go round and round with them forever and get nowhere. My heart is not to make another believe everything I say but rather to find a way forward for all of us so that we can cross over to the promised land together. Having had a foretaste of the next move of the Spirit I desperately want to go back over Jordan but I cannot do so without the bulk of my brethren crossing with me.

So, I don’t really don’t know what to do with these types of people other than leave them alone. The word does not get to them, the spirit does not seem to impact them, they are immovable and proud of it. Many seem to have a bit of ability in the word, which is commendable, but it seems that they are so married to their way of looking at things that nothing can shake them loose in the slightest. They are hunkered down in their theological fox hole and no amount of persuasion is going to move them. Unless I come and sit in their fox hole with them it seems there can be little fellowship.

I am not into defending the faith but rather I want to explore the faith with others. I have come from a place where all I did is defend the faith and that was boring. I got tired of it and I was not helping anyone. I was just defending some doctrinal wall where God used to be while He was off somewhere over the horizon. Finally, by His grace, I got out of my foxhole and I started to follow after Him. In order to do that I had to “change my position.”

In conclusion, if there is ever going to a a truly profitable doctrinal discussion it has to be with an open mind where there can be movement on both sides. I am not married to my doctrine and I will change my viewpoint if I see that someone has a better explanation to offer. If we all can have this type of heart towards one another perhaps we can find new and exciting places in God to experience and mature together into the fullness and stature of His Son Jesus Christ.

Blessings,

Justin

 

[Episkopos]

Dear All,

When speaking to people about the Bible I have noticed that some refuse to move an inch from their viewpoints and merely machine gun you with doctrinal bullets every time you seem to threaten their position. I encounter this type of behavior all the time and it seems that people think that this amounts to a discussion when in reality is it more of a statement of faith. They say they are open to understand new viewpoints but the are deluding themselves. The truth is that many would rather kill or be killed than give up their present doctrinal position.

I understand that many consider themselves defenders of the faith and that I am not particularly gifted in that way. My gifting tends more towards revelation. However, I do know that at least some of what I say is very true while other things are more questionable. However, it seems from what others say, even though they sometimes do so in a most pleasant manor, that they are very “set” in their doctrine and believe that they must hold their position at all costs. Some say “show me the scripture” and when you do they check it against their current fox hole and if it does not line up with what they believe, they open fire. It is a type of ruse that they employ to seem open minded and reasonable, but when you threaten to change their current position, they are not.

When iron sharpens iron both change and get better. That is what I am seeking when I discuss a topic with someone. If others are so set in their ways that anything that differs from their theology is rejected then I do not see what we can hope to accomplish unless I swing to their view points completely.

Some people can literally bury a discussion in scripture and the volume of their writing. However, volume of scripture quoted does not necessarily impress me. Many times people quote scripture whole sections of the Bible that they think supports their viewpoint when it really doesn’t.

The question I am try to answer is “what are we really accomplishing and what spirit are we of?” I suppose, in their view, they are defending the faith and standing up for God. However, and this may be difficult to accept, I know for a fact, that in certain areas, some are in error but there seems no way to reach them, even with scriptures.

The basic problem is, that despite their doctrinal views the church, as a whole, is languishing and many are suffering. The normative doctrine that they insist must be true is what many in these sad circumstances believe. Yet for all their doctrinal “rightness” things are not getting better. The body of Christ is not maturing to a place where they can navigate the things that are going to happen soon.

The prevailing attitude for many is, “My doctrine can beat up your doctrine.” My heart is not to beat anyone’s doctrine. This is not a zero sum game for me. With those who are rigid in their doctrine their is no give possible and I we could go round and round with them forever and get nowhere. My heart is not to make another believe everything I say but rather to find a way forward for all of us so that we can cross over to the promised land together. Having had a foretaste of the next move of the Spirit I desperately want to go back over Jordan but I cannot do so without the bulk of my brethren crossing with me.

So, I don’t really don’t know what to do with these types of people other than leave them alone. The word does not get to them, the spirit does not seem to impact them, they are immovable and proud of it. Many seem to have a bit of ability in the word, which is commendable, but it seems that they are so married to their way of looking at things that nothing can shake them loose in the slightest. They are hunkered down in their theological fox hole and no amount of persuasion is going to move them. Unless I come and sit in their fox hole with them it seems there can be little fellowship.

I am not into defending the faith but rather I want to explore the faith with others. I have come from a place where all I did is defend the faith and that was boring. I got tired of it and I was not helping anyone. I was just defending some doctrinal wall where God used to be while He was off somewhere over the horizon. Finally, by His grace, I got out of my foxhole and I started to follow after Him. In order to do that I had to “change my position.”

In conclusion, if there is ever going to a a truly profitable doctrinal discussion it has to be with an open mind where there can be movement on both sides. I am not married to my doctrine and I will change my viewpoint if I see that someone has a better explanation to offer. If we all can have this type of heart towards one another perhaps we can find new and exciting places in God to experience and mature together into the fullness and stature of His Son Jesus Christ.

Blessings,

Justin

This is so reasonable and wise brother! Reps to you!!! :)

You have said many things that go seemingly unnoticed on the forums. People take a doctrinal position...or foxhole as you have said...and shoot at anyone who pokes their heads up with scripture guns!

Mostly this is true. But there is more going on than that. One must look behind the words to see if there is life there...or just a dead form.

Words to either carry life or death. The problem is not the words....but the LIFE of the one using the words. Everybody has good intentions...not everyone speaks from life.

 

[aspen]

unfortunately, many christians are rooted in fear. they falsely believe if they trumpet their beliefs and interpretation of scripture loudly enough and with as much sarcasm and snide comments as possible, people will mistake their fear for steadfast courage. Truly, they are like a child whistling in a graveyard in order to keep their courage up.

The good news is that Christ's love liberates us from this existential fear.

 

[Levi]

The OP is right on - in theory, it's what we are supposed to do, but most people are headstrong in their beliefs, doctrines, ways, whatever you want to call them and won't bend - especially when a person is older - and especially on the forums.

The problem is people who might overly agree with you are the very ones pointing their fingers at others saying "I know what you mean, they're doing it right here", when they are in fact doing the same. We see in others what we ourselves do. Forums are notorious for this, what I have found is, people are trying to find disciples -for themselves. They are trying to "gather the flock" so to speak because everyone else doesn't have it quit right - but they sure do, or at least they think they do.

In my experience with God, He has you where He wants you and He will never, ever stop teaching you - IF we are teachable. If we think we've already learned all there is to know and we have it right, "they" have it wrong - then you're not teachable anymore. There are a few doctrines, beliefs, ways, whatever you want to call them that I thought for sure was right on - but that wasn't the case, but it was not on the forums that I learned it, it was in the quietness with the Lord. Not sure how great a platform forums are for learning because like the OP says - we all think we know but we're all in disagreement.

None of us has reached a place where we can say we know it all - NO ONE!

 

[laid renard]

I concur. I can agree to disagree. Some may get mad at me for saying this, but, (here goes lol...), as long as my brother/sister in Christ has salvation through faith in the beautiful, precious, mighty blood of Jesus Christ, I kinda don't care what they do with all the other stufff. My life's too messed up at the moment. I gotta concentrate on straightening that out first, before I can delve into the life of doctrine. It's between them and God. I'll love them anyway. And I hope they love me. But it's not a prerequisite, cause I love unconditionally.

 

[Justin Mangonel]

Dear L,

Well said,

Justin

 

[Robertson]

When speaking to people about the Bible I have noticed that some refuse to move an inch from their viewpoints and merely machine gun you with doctrinal bullets every time you seem to threaten their position. I encounter this type of behavior all the time and it seems that people think that this amounts to a discussion when in reality is it more of a statement of faith. They say they are open to understand new viewpoints but the are deluding themselves. The truth is that many would rather kill or be killed than give up their present doctrinal position.

Dear Brother Justin,

I wish to make a few remarks on this topic. We all have gone through experiences that lead us up to this very moment in time where we have a set of doctrinal beliefs. Odds are, they probably are different in some way than the beliefs we had years ago. As our lives change and our experience touches our senses and our spirit, we see things differently. We study and pray, we go through joy and pain, we play different roles in life - such as becoming a husband or a father. Our viewpoint is constantly changing and over time, doctrinal beliefs may change as well. It seems to be a process of learning that takes much time and experience. In my experience, never has there been a time when someone can just challenge a belief of mine and I say, "Oh, ok" and then make a major change in the way that I believe just because someone has pointed out a different view point. So, I try not to do that to others... to expect that having a conversation and telling them that the way I believe is better and expect them to instantly change. Their beliefs come through their eyes and their experience and will have to change through those same methods. Honestly, and I am asking my self this same question - do we look through these forums thinking that we are going to make some changes to the way we think about Christianity and all the doctrines that come along with that, be them made by God or man? Or do we look through here looking for ways to change other peoples incorrect beliefs (incorrect because they do not line up to our beliefs), wondering why no one instantly changes when we are so clearly right!

I understand that many consider themselves defenders of the faith and that I am not particularly gifted in that way. My gifting tends more towards revelation. However, I do know that at least some of what I say is very true while other things are more questionable. However, it seems from what others say, even though they sometimes do so in a most pleasant manor, that they are very “set” in their doctrine and believe that they must hold their position at all costs. Some say “show me the scripture” and when you do they check it against their current fox hole and if it does not line up with what they believe, they open fire. It is a type of ruse that they employ to seem open minded and reasonable, but when you threaten to change their current position, they are not.

This is exactly spot on! I do run into this all the time. Someone is being very defensive and they want to see with their eyes, but when you show them, their eyes do not see it. I often run into this when people have a strange belief that no one can see God and live. They think this because of a misinterpretation of one New Testament scripture. Anyway, I'm not trying to bring that topic up, but I can show them seemingly endless scriptures of where men do see God and live, but these people wont change their minds. Again, I think when we have a belief, it is so hard to instantly change it. Especially if maybe that belief has been held for a long time, and even more especially if someone's parents have taught them this.

The question I am try to answer is “what are we really accomplishing and what spirit are we of?” I suppose, in their view, they are defending the faith and standing up for God. However, and this may be difficult to accept, I know for a fact, that in certain areas, some are in error but there seems no way to reach them, even with scriptures.

The basic problem is, that despite their doctrinal views the church, as a whole, is languishing and many are suffering. The normative doctrine that they insist must be true is what many in these sad circumstances believe. Yet for all their doctrinal “rightness” things are not getting better. The body of Christ is not maturing to a place where they can navigate the things that are going to happen soon.

The prevailing attitude for many is, “My doctrine can beat up your doctrine.” My heart is not to beat anyone’s doctrine. This is not a zero sum game for me. With those who are rigid in their doctrine their is no give possible and I we could go round and round with them forever and get nowhere. My heart is not to make another believe everything I say but rather to find a way forward for all of us so that we can cross over to the promised land together. Having had a foretaste of the next move of the Spirit I desperately want to go back over Jordan but I cannot do so without the bulk of my brethren crossing with me.

So, I don’t really don’t know what to do with these types of people other than leave them alone. The word does not get to them, the spirit does not seem to impact them, they are immovable and proud of it. Many seem to have a bit of ability in the word, which is commendable, but it seems that they are so married to their way of looking at things that nothing can shake them loose in the slightest. They are hunkered down in their theological fox hole and no amount of persuasion is going to move them. Unless I come and sit in their fox hole with them it seems there can be little fellowship.

Amen! What are we really trying to accomplish! Are we not supposed to be preparing the world for the return of the Lord? How do we do this when we are fighting each other and just trying to bash.

Thank you for your post, it has given me a lot to think of as to my conduct on here.

Love to you

 

[FHII]

In Matt 11:7 Jesus spoke of John the Baptist and said, "What did you go to see? A reed shaking in the wind?" [paraphrasing]. Eph 4:14 also goes along with this.

I understand what you are getting at, but I think I may be the type of person you are talking about. I have never claimed to be "open minded" when it comes to the gospel. I will listen, I will consider and I will think. But I've been at this for about 12 years (not patting myself on the back because I know many others have been at it longer) and when I see sound doctrine, I won't change unless the evidence is overwelming.

The difference between me and perhaps many others is that my mind can be changed! I have been wrong before and if you can prove it, then I will rejoice for the correction.

Do the debates that happen on this and many other Christian boards edify? Some may not and do more harm than good, but if they get you thinking and researching more on the topic, I think so....

 

[Justin Mangonel]

Dear F,

Stong beliefs are not wrong as long as you remain able to change your position if God shows you otherwise. However, some are dug in for the duration and will not listen and consider anything other than their fox hole. It is even dangerous to approuch them.

Blessings,

Justin

Dear R,

Thanks for your comments...they were pithy.

Blessings,

Justin

 

[jiggyfly]

Good OP, I have seen the same things here and other forums because my beliefs challenge the endless torment concept.

 

[FHII]

Dear F,

Stong beliefs are not wrong as long as you remain able to change your position if God shows you otherwise. However, some are dug in for the duration and will not listen and consider anything other than their fox hole. It is even dangerous to approuch them.

Blessings,

Justin

Justin,

Yes that I can agree with. The conversation works both ways though. Usually there is two foxholes dug! I would suggest that if you (speaking in general here... not just you) find yourself debating with someone and fail to convince him or her don't just assume they are someone who is like what you described.

One thing I've learned about debating from these boards is a tough couple of lessons. Even though often times the rules state not to do this, it does no good to 1. Insult the other in any way, 2. Continue the debate when it become rehashing information. It's tough because it is frustrating when someone doesn't get, believe or acknowledge your points. These are what causes foxholes to be dug deeper.

If the foxholes gets too deep two things happen: Neither of you can get out and neither of you can see the other anymore! In that case or before it happens, perhaps the best solution is to politely and graceously bow out.

 

[Justin Mangonel]

Dear F,

Amen to what you said. A voice of reason finally prevails. I like the deep fox hole and not seeing analogy.

Blessings,

Justin

 

[Niki]

Dear All

When speaking to people about the Bible I have noticed that some refuse to move an inch from their viewpoints and merely machine gun you with doctrinal bullets every time you seem to threaten their position. I encounter this type of behavior all the time and it seems that people think that this amounts to a discussion when in reality is it more of a statement of faith. They say they are open to understand new viewpoints but the are deluding themselves. The truth is that many would rather kill or be killed than give up their present doctrinal position.

If we throw scripture out the window in favor of someone's personal and questionable experience, what are the safe guards? Does anyone realize how many cults have
started with exactly the same sentiment as quoted above? Perhaps the truth is not that many would rather kill or be killed than give up their Bible (because folks, that
is where all this nasty doctrine comes from that Justin is so miffed about) but that some have had experiences that cannot be validated by the Bible and so the
doctrine must therefore be wrong and those who hold to doctrine must somehow be akin to the inquisitors of Spanish fame.

Hmmm...that's a good thought I think. You see, there really is no need to defend the truth, but if, if, that truth has somehow become muddied in the light of personal
experience, than those who hold to the truth delivered once and for all are wrong?

Well, I guess we would have to be wrong in order to satisfy some people's longing after feeling God rather than KNOWING God. God has told us who He is and He has
said the same thing to every single person on this planet.....some, would like to say that ...uh, no....we have it wrong and God has hidden this mystical practice
from all but the eyes of a few Hasidic folk who have actually been practicing the art of mysticism for low these many centuries.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

It is called insecurity.

If someone finds out they may be wrong about something .... it scares the hell out of them

They would rather defend their (possibly incorrect) doctrine tooth and nail.

 

[Justin Mangonel]

Dear A,

I would agree with that. I think a healthy relationship with our Father can help alleviate such insecurities. Once you have confidence in His ability to lead and guide you you don't have to worry so much about being wrong.

Blessings,

Michael

 

[FHII]

It is called insecurity.

If someone finds out they may be wrong about something .... it scares the hell out of them

They would rather defend their (possibly incorrect) doctrine tooth and nail.

I have to relate something to you.... First off, I agree with you, but listen to my story....

I was once on another board defending something I thought was true... But in the end I was wrong. What did I do?

I humbly admitted my defeat and changed my point of view. I expected my detractor who was right to rejoice with me for seeing the truth. What did he do? He threw it in my face and lambasted me! That's the wrong attitude! That is not the way I do biz and and I expect others who see truth to rejoice with them when it comes about!

Provide your "enemy" with an easy escape. It's not a war against the person. And, provide it early.... I see so many snide comments given on this board that it's hard to escape. I don't even think many realize they are making it, including myself! It's not a war against anyone, but against what isn't the Truth.

It's really tough to do on message boards because there is no emotions (good or bad) provided in reading words. Fuurthermore, many people come off as arrogant in providing a way out... "Oh, you need to pray about this!" Well, fella.... Maybe you do! See? Tempers can flair. I'm still learning how to type a response that doesn't myself.

 

[aspen]

unfortunately one of the ugly side effects of overidentification with doctrine is fighting with people you disagree with for the purpose of annihalating them. They are not only wrong - they are fools and hypocrites, not to mention heretucal! it is not enough to just win you must spiritually cannibalize your opponent.

 

[FHII]

unfortunately one of the ugly side effects of overidentification with doctrine is fighting with people you disagree with for the purpose of annihalating them. They are not only wrong - they are fools and hypocrites, not to mention heretucal! it is not enough to just win you must spiritually cannibalize your opponent.

Apsen I don't think you can overidentify with a doctrine. I certainly would overidentify with a doctrine that is truth. In fact, I don't want any other doctrine.... Furthermore, if you associate with a doctrine that isn't truth I do believe you are a fool, hypocrite and a heretic.

The problem is I was once one too. I had a lot of false doctrine as well. I may still have some, and if you can point it out to me I'll change. Yet I was always a child of God, even though it was one that hadn't come into the truth yet. Folks should think about that and remember it.

 

[Niki]

The end result of this teaching is that those who have experienced it, become the man child in Revelation.

That's it. That is the point of it all. That is the end result of the Tabernacle experience...according to what is stated on Justin's website.

No deception there. Not at all.
It may be of interest for those who doubt in the veracity of the word, or that there is an over emphasis on it...we got the idea from the Bible, so, you know, it seems to be
God's emphasis too!

“Do not be carried about with various and strange doctrines.” (Hebrews 13:9)
“If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him; for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds.” (2 John 1:10)
“Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons.” (1 Timothy 4:1)
“For false christs and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, so as to deceive, if possible, even the elect.” (Matthew 24:24)
“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits.” (Matthew 7:15)
“Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.” (Colossians 2:8)
“Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them.” (Ephesians 5:6)

 

[biggandyy]

I think it's very telling... "other" people use doctrinal machine guns... the "rest of us" use reasoned debate and sound scripture! hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahha

http://youtu.be/kTswRaewXxc