No, that's not what it means. It means that I think you read the passage and say to yourself, "that is, unless they don't". I don't come to Scripture that way. What it says is so, I accept just that way.
Much love!
Oddly OSAS
- Thread starter GracePeace
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Much love!
Sorry, it not my intention. Obviously, I deny that Ezekiel said that.
Quote the passage you have in mind and let's discuss it.
Ezekiel prophesied as a part of the covenant of obedience that God made with Israel at Mt. Horeb. Do you consider yourself a party to that covenant?
Much love!
Balderdash! And again, not a sort of discussion I'm interested in. I'll discuss the topic all day long, but I have zero interest in hearing your poor opinions of me.
Much love!
Here is another . . .
1 John 3:1-3 KJV
1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3) And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
Exactly true as written? Or not?
Much love!
Matthew 18
21Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother who sins against me? Up to seven times?”
22Jesus answered, “I tell you, not just seven times, but seventy-seven times!e
23Because of this, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24As he began the settlements, a debtor was brought to him owing ten thousand talents.f 25Since the man was unable to pay, the master ordered that he be sold to pay his debt, along with his wife and children and everything he owned.
26Then the servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Have patience with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’
27His master had compassion on him, forgave his debt, and released him.
28But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii.g He grabbed him and began to choke him, saying, ‘Pay back what you owe me!’
29So his fellow servant fell down and begged him, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you back.’
30But he refused. Instead, he went and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay his debt.
31When his fellow servants saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed, and they went and recounted all of this to their master.
32Then the master summoned him and declared, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave all your debt because you begged me. 33Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant, just as I had on you?’ 34In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should repay all that he owed.
35That is how My heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart.”
Do you believe God can forgive someone's sins?
Do you believe how God forgives sins (Ro 4:6-8)?
Doesn't this mean the person becomes and unbeliever?
Do you believe Paul says those things were written for our sake (1 Co 9:10, 10:11)?
Yep, I believe it--to all those who are sons, this applies, and to the ones who unbecome sons it doesn't!
Ernest T. Bass
Well-Known Member
What you post above is an excuse offered by the pro-OSAS crowd but it is not logical. A never saved person is an already fallen person and an already fallen person cannot fall...for he is already fallen!! How can an already fallen person fall into condemnation when already is in condemnation?!?!?
The word 'fall' carries the idea of a change in location, you fall from a tree hence your location has changed from being in the tree to being on the ground. An always lost person's location does not change, he is lost and remains lost so he cannot fall for he already is fallen!!
Apostate carries the same idea:
646 apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing."
An apostate is one who has fallen "away from" a "previous standing" to another standing, that is, fallen from a previous saved standing to a current lost standing. Again, one who has been always lost, his standing has not changed, he was lost and remains in the same lost standing.
An always lost person cannot depart from the faith if he never had the faith. You cannot depart from a building you are not in, you must first be IN the building in order to depart from it. Likewise one must be in the faith first before one can depart from it. Again, a never saved person cannot depart from what he never had!
If OSAS were true, then the terms 'depart', 'fall' and 'apostate' would have no meaning, they would be untruths.
There's your unwritten private caveat that overturns the meaning of what God said.
Much love!
Yes, as was the acount of Noah, but are you building an ark? Or do you recognize that certain things were said to certain people at certain times that applied to them alone?
Much love!
By that same logic, you could rebut Paul, "Yes, but does that mean we were brought out of Egypt?" LOL
It doesn't matter. What matters are the principles.
This aligns with what Jesus said to the Jews,
Matthew 6:14-15 KJV
14) For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
15) But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Can you expain how we are to understand this passage in consideration of the following?
Colossians 3:13 KJV
Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
Ephesians 4:32 KJV
And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
On the one hand, Jesus said, if you want to be forgiven you have to forgive others, and then, if you do, God will forgive you.
On the other hand, Paul wrote, you are to forgive others because you have already been forgiven.
How do you account for this?
To me, this shows the difference between the covenant of obedience God made with Israel, under which Jesus taught the people, and the new covenant, were we have been fully forgiven by God through Jesus' death and resurrection.
Much love!
I didn't put those words in your mouth, I simply showed the flaw in your approach.
Anyway, I await your response to Mt 18.
No, Jesus was laying down rules for the Church--as He said, "Go and make disciples of all nations teaching them to observe what ever I have commanded you." The stipulation "Forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors" applies to the (forgiven) Church.
Yes, of course.
Romans 4:5-8 KJV
5) But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6) Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7) Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8) Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
Forgiven, from apheimi, to send away.
John 1:29 KJV
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
Taketh away, from aero, to lift away, carry off.
Jesus carried away all our sins.
Which person? The one who didn't forgive the debt? Are you thinking of them as "born again"?
Much love!