Not Born with Sin Nature

[ScottA]

These Scriptures always begin with: The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.

If you want to apply it to yourself, then that is your error, not mine.

Many do the same with Romans 7, in applying to all believers what is only for the wretched double minded, who are still carnal and sold under sin.

The point made is that the natural man who believes not God, can do nothing to please God, because without faith it is impossible to please God.

And so, without God and His faith in the heart, no man can do any good or righteousness of God: works without faith are unjustified by Christ, even as faith without works is dead within.

Only in the garden and at the cross, was this true for every soul on earth, since Adam and Eve were the only souls on earth when they sinned, and even the believers were concluded in unbelief at the cross, when they all forsook Him as he prophesied they would.



I've already corrected this Marvel Comics alien race theory. You do not even acknowledge the points made, so I'll not be just a sounding board for your tradition.

Now after 4 pages of private conversation...this is your response?

The point is that Paul identified the nature of all who are born into this world, saying "you once walked according to the course of this world. Ephesians 2:1-3

 

[Episkopos]

I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace.

This applies to every living soul created by God and new born into the world: not just in His presence, but Personally by His Spirit and Christ.

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.



The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field.

The flesh is grass and as grass: mortal flesh of any living creature on earth is neither righteous nor sinful.

Sinful flesh is not the flesh's sinfulness, but is sinning in the flesh. It's the act of committing sin with flesh. It's souls walking sinfully in the flesh.



The 'terrible twos' is what Scripture calls wretched double mindedness of two hearts: Souls divide themselves from God by sinning.

Jesus Christ has never created a sin nature nor spirit, but only spiritual beings who make themselves sinful at heart.

Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.



Lucifer like all spiritual beings that rebel against God by sinning, live in an eternal lie: the soul which sinneth shall not die.

Many double hearted Christians believe and teach it to themselves.

The lie of course ends at last judgment.

Lucifer cannot repent nor be saved, because he does not have a soul to do so. Angels are spiritual beings with spiritual bodies only: Only Man is made in the image of God and Christ, which is Soul, Spirit, and Body.

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

There is no 'reality' as opposed to 'unreality'. Nor is there an eternal vs temporal 'reality': there is only the truth of God and His creation.

All spiritual beings are immortal, and only natural man in mortal body thinks to deny it. And there are even more foolish men that vainly imagine an alternate' reality' to the truth.

Eternal truth is simply immortal souls made flesh, but only them in Christ Jesus have His eternal life forever, while them that die by sinning unto the end will continue in immortal death and separation from God as wandering stars in the blackness of darkness forever.



That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us)

And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

You see how your philosophizing as led you into acknowledging you know not Christ, Who is the true God and eternal life, nor have any fellowship with Hm?

LOL Only in your imagination. :) Taking Bible verses willy nilly...out of context...only proves you have a religious bent that borders on a psychological need to be pure in your own eyes. Religion deforms the mind....and sets up the pretense of the carnal mind to be justified for having agreed to a misrepresentation of the Bible.

Your reasoning (or lack thereof) is based on a presumptuous posturing that does not allow for conversation. Be pure in your own eyes if you need that. But there is no wisdom or understanding in it.

 

[robert derrick]

Now after 4 pages of private conversation...this is your response?

The point is that Paul identified the nature of all who are born into this world, saying "you once walked according to the course of this world. Ephesians 2:1-3

No, that is not my response to you privately. I have made no responses to you there, because I am waiting to perfectly understand all you are trying to teach. As I said, I would withhold any objections until the end.

You talked privately of the 'sin' nature as being more of God's nature given to man to choose to do good or evil. That is not what is being taught here, where being born with a sin nature is inherently moved to choose evil: Souls are created by God with the power to choose freely one way or the other, they are not made and born with an inherited desire to choose evil: born with lust by physical seed of man.

And at this point, I don't continue with you about being born with sin, unless you are ready to address my specific points offered, which I have done for all of yours. Just repeating yourself gets us nowhere.

So, if you want to begin an actual back and forth about being born with sin in the soul or the flesh, we can try again. We each offer points, that we respond to specifically, by either agreeing or by offering a different reading of Scripture made by the other.

The point is that Paul identified the nature of all who are born into this world, saying "you once walked according to the course of this world. Ephesians 2:1-3

Your reading of the Scripture here says that it means we are born with sin into the world. I disagree.
1. No Scripture speaks of how we are born into this world, except as being made livings souls by God, and wrapped in mortal flesh.

2. The point Scripture is making is that all who sin become natural sinners of the world unto the end, except God saves them from sinning. And the course of this world is that sinful course made by sinners on earth.

It is not saying that we are born sinners in natural flesh, nor that the natural course of this world is sinful: sin is spiritual in nature, and no physical natural thing on earth is sinful, neither any living creature, nor tree, nor grass of the field.

The heaven and the earth created good by God is not the world of iniquity created by men that sin. And like heaven and earth, God creates men good and clean, who become dead and evil by sinning.

And so, we disagree completely on our conclusions of thoat Scriptures. If you see error in my reasoning, then address it specifically, as I have yours.

Now, I have two points I'd like you to address:

1. By nature in Scripture does not mean born with it naturally:

And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles.

Jews by nature are the circumcision by nature, while the Gentiles are neither Jews nor the circumcision by nature: by nature is not born by nature, because no man is a Jew nor circumcised by natural birth from the womb.

Therefore, by nature in Scripture must mean doing things by nature, naturally: Israel after the flesh naturally circumcises their sons as by law: they are natural followers of the letter of the law. No newborn babe is with knowledge of the law nor natural obedience to sin or righteousness.

Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Sinners naturally sinning, as it were by nature, are therefore made the children of wrath by nature.

No newborn babe is born with the wrath of God upon them; otherwise, children would not be the blessed heritage of the Lord. Nor does the Lord separate any child of wrath from the woman's womb.

Lo, children are an heritage of the LORD: and the fruit of the womb is his reward.

Sinners of wrath are not God's heritage. Sinning has wrath and wage of death, not simply being born into the world.

2. No flesh is righteous nor sinful, even as grass. Therefore, there is no sin nor sin nature in any physical thing on earth, nor living creature on earth, inducing the physical seed of man, cattle, birds, or fish:

The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field.

What say you about these two points offered?

 

[robert derrick]

LOL Only in your imagination. :) Taking Bible verses willy nilly...out of context...only proves you have a religious bent that borders on a psychological need to be pure in your own eyes. Religion deforms the mind....and sets up the pretense of the carnal mind to be justified for having agreed to a misrepresentation of the Bible.

Your reasoning (or lack thereof) is based on a presumptuous posturing that does not allow for conversation. Be pure in your own eyes if you need that. But there is no wisdom or understanding in it.

Talk about mockers in the last days.

I believe you people mock being pure in heart, because you're so blind to Spiritual truth, that you don't even know your doing it.
Otherwise, you would at least try to cloak your lust with some sort of rationalized excuse not to be spiritually pure in Christ.

These are indeed your last days. The best you can do for yourself is repent and be thanking God for purity, rather than laughing at His Son's blood shed for that very thing.

 

[stephen64]

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

The same writer also wrote:
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us 1John1:8

 

[robert derrick]

The same writer also wrote:
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us 1John1:8

Fine, then don't claim it.

And if you want to think doing righteousness and not sinning is claiming it, then you need to accuse God of commanding us to do it.

I.e. your effort to dodge the commandment of God is typical these days.

In the past, when I was much younger, people were more honest about it, and would just say they got some more sinning to do first.

Nowadays, more and more people are learning only enough Scripture to justify it.

 

[stephen64]

Fine, then don't claim it.

And if you want to think doing righteousness and not sinning is claiming it, then you need to accuse God of commanding us to do it.

I.e. your effort to dodge the commandment of God is typical these days.

In the past, when I was much younger, people were more honest about it, and would just say they got some more sinning to do first.

Nowadays, more and more people are learning only enough Scripture to justify it.

If I asked you if not obeying Christ's literal commands in the Gospels was committing sin, how would you respond? My guess is, you would have to say that would be committing sin. If I then asked you if you even tried to obey yourself each and every literal command of Christ in the Gospels, would you then reply honestly? You do realise, that not to commit sin includes what goes on, on the inside of man don't you? Sin that no one but you and God need know you commit? So you would have to claim to perfectly obey that law too. And if you never commit any sin of any kind, what need do you have for a saviour from sin? Surely Christ is irrelevant to you. And, if you never commit any sin at all, you never have anything to regret, you never have have to say sorry to God for anything do you.
Admitting you are not perfect, does not mean you wish to excuse sin, or wallow in it, it is just being humble and honest. Two qualities that Christ considered very important in your walk

 

[Episkopos]

Talk about mockers in the last days.

I believe you people mock being pure in heart, because you're so blind to Spiritual truth, that you don't even know your doing it.
Otherwise, you would at least try to cloak your lust with some sort of rationalized excuse not to be spiritually pure in Christ.

These are indeed your last days. The best you can do for yourself is repent and be thanking God for purity, rather than laughing at His Son's blood shed for that very thing.

I hope you have a good day today...yesterday something frazzled you. :)

The pure in heart don't lash out with outrageous statements from a wounded pride. That pride comes from the part of you that is meant to go to the cross. So you are over-estimating your purity...your hands are full of blood.

Try speaking from love...inner man to inner man. There is no point in claiming to be one thing while doing the opposite.

 

[ScottA]

1. By nature in Scripture does not mean born with it naturally:

And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles.

Jews by nature are the circumcision by nature, while the Gentiles are neither Jews nor the circumcision by nature: by nature is not born by nature, because no man is a Jew nor circumcised by natural birth from the womb.

Therefore, by nature in Scripture must mean doing things by nature, naturally: Israel after the flesh naturally circumcises their sons as by law: they are natural followers of the letter of the law. No newborn babe is with knowledge of the law nor natural obedience to sin or righteousness.

Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Sinners naturally sinning, as it were by nature, are therefore made the children of wrath by nature.

No newborn babe is born with the wrath of God upon them; otherwise, children would not be the blessed heritage of the Lord. Nor does the Lord separate any child of wrath from the woman's womb.

Lo, children are an heritage of the LORD: and the fruit of the womb is his reward.

Sinners of wrath are not God's heritage. Sinning has wrath and wage of death, not simply being born into the world.

"By nature" is certainly used in the scriptures in different ways, just as there are different natures. Even the secular definition of the word means many things. That's not the point.​

However, that does not exclude its use in the context of sin after the fall of mankind with Adam and Eve. The context is not that of God's good creation, but rather, as it is written: of Him casting mankind out of His presence--that is all mankind, that they should know good and evil. Scripturally, there is very little exception to this, exceptions that are only mentioned--not as the rule, but as an exception and a choice made by God and what He alone counts as sin and righteousness. Nowhere do the scriptures since Adam was cast out of the presence of God, does it say that anyone was born good and without evil and temptations, except for Christ, who was also tempted. However, as the only named exception--He is not the rule, and therefore it cannot be said that all people are born good or that sin is simply a choice.​

2. No flesh is righteous nor sinful, even as grass. Therefore, there is no sin nor sin nature in any physical thing on earth, nor living creature on earth, inducing the physical seed of man, cattle, birds, or fish:

The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field.

What say you about these two points offered?

This is foolishness. Grass does not have a choice--but is prone to suffer death, just as it is for people who are not also born [again] of the spirit of God. If anything, the verse indicates that people do not have a choice at all.​

That verse proves you wrong. It shows that "all flesh" is doomed from birth--just as all grass is. "All."​

 

[robert derrick]

If I asked you if not obeying Christ's literal commands in the Gospels was committing sin, how would you respond? My guess is, you would have to say that would be committing sin.

Correct.

For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

Murder and adultery is committing sin for any man.

The 'literal' and 'spiritual' commandments of God are one and the same: the ones written in Scripture, and the ones written in hearts.

If I then asked you if you even tried to obey yourself each and every literal command of Christ in the Gospels, would you then reply honestly?

We obey neither ourselves nor our own consciences: Believing and obeying God's word is obeying God, not man.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

And Moses said, Hereby ye shall know that the LORD hath sent me to do all these works; for I have not done them of mine own mind.

You do realise, that not to commit sin includes what goes on, on the inside of man don't you? Sin that no one but you and God need know you commit? So you would have to claim to perfectly obey that law too.

True. Which is why the law and blood of Christ is greater than of Moses and bulls:

Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

By the law of the law of the Spirit of life, we purge ourselves of the law of sin and death in our hearts and minds, that sin may have no more dominion over the flesh.

(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ.

And if you never commit any sin of any kind,

If we do not commit sin inwardly, by lusting, then we will not commit sin outwardly by being enticed by lust to do so:

But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

The war over sin and the devil is first won within the heart and mind; otherwise, all such efforts to resist sinning are carnal and with the body only.

what need do you have for a saviour from sin? Surely Christ is irrelevant to you.

Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

We do not save ourselves by our own word, mind, and righteousness: we are saved by being born of Christ and are doers of His word with a pure heart.

First He saves us to purify and cleanse with power to do His will only, then if we sin, we need His advocacy with the Father to be forgiven nd washed clean once again.

Those not saved have no advocate with God, but only the commandment of the Saviour to repent and believe the Gospel.

And, if you never commit any sin at all, you never have anything to regret, you never have have to say sorry to God for anything do you.

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.

So, do we sin or sin not? Do we obey God or the devil? Remember, the fight begins within first.

Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee: because he trusteth in thee.

It's called the simplicity of Christ within us, the hope of glory, and doing the truth in the Light: the fellowship of Jesus in the Light is within the heart, which is the door we open to Him by obeying His Spirit to purify and purge all things from our soul, to become a spiritual house of His own to sup in. Simple.

Admitting you are not perfect, does not mean you wish to excuse sin, or wallow in it, it is just being humble and honest. Two qualities that Christ considered very important in your walk

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

What many Christian sinners call humble and honest, has become bragging about how they are just as sinful as the rest of the world.

Being perfect and entire in Christ is simply having and keeping a pure heart and soul with Him, and so walking after the Spirit only, and not after the flesh at all: God's dividing line between darkness and Light is clear cut, sharp, and distinct. No lukewarm gray middle ground: we are either pure in heart or we are not. We either love God with all the heart, or we do not.

The double minded of Romans 7, where Paul and any Christian, including myself has been, needs to be repented of to enter into the liberty without condemnation of Romans 8.

Being perfected in bodily resurrection is to make no more mistakes at all. Mistakes, such as tripping and falling down, or forgetting where the car keys are, is not sinning against the law, but is the normal plague of mortal flesh on earth.

just being humble and honest. Two qualities that Christ considered very important in your walk

Just being honest and humble with God is just repenting of sinning by His grace and power:

But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

Two qualities Christ hates and comes to deliver from is spiritual uncleanness of heart and sinning in the flesh: sinners cannot be humble with God, because they have yet to humble and submit themselves to God His way: stop being sorry and just repent.

The commandment to us is simple: wash and purify within the heart first. Those who believe it with the heart will do it in the fear of the Lord. Those who don't, won't.

Try asking God for the faith to do so, and see what happens when you do. If you are sincere of heart, He will answer you too:

Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

 

[stephen64]

Correct.

For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

Murder and adultery is committing sin for any man.

The 'literal' and 'spiritual' commandments of God are one and the same: the ones written in Scripture, and the ones written in hearts.



We obey neither ourselves nor our own consciences: Believing and obeying God's word is obeying God, not man.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

And Moses said, Hereby ye shall know that the LORD hath sent me to do all these works; for I have not done them of mine own mind.


True. Which is why the law and blood of Christ is greater than of Moses and bulls:

Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

By the law of the law of the Spirit of life, we purge ourselves of the law of sin and death in our hearts and minds, that sin may have no more dominion over the flesh.

(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ.



If we do not commit sin inwardly, by lusting, then we will not commit sin outwardly by being enticed by lust to do so:

But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

The war over sin and the devil is first won within the heart and mind; otherwise, all such efforts to resist sinning are carnal and with the body only.



Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

We do not save ourselves by our own word, mind, and righteousness: we are saved by being born of Christ and are doers of His word with a pure heart.

First He saves us to purify and cleanse with power to do His will only, then if we sin, we need His advocacy with the Father to be forgiven nd washed clean once again.

Those not saved have no advocate with God, but only the commandment of the Saviour to repent and believe the Gospel.



My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not.

So, do we sin or sin not? Do we obey God or the devil? Remember, the fight begins within first.

Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee: because he trusteth in thee.

It's called the simplicity of Christ within us, the hope of glory, and doing the truth in the Light: the fellowship of Jesus in the Light is within the heart, which is the door we open to Him by obeying His Spirit to purify and purge all things from our soul, to become a spiritual house of His own to sup in. Simple.



Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

What many Christian sinners call humble and honest, has become bragging about how they are just as sinful as the rest of the world.

Being perfect and entire in Christ is simply having and keeping a pure heart and soul with Him, and so walking after the Spirit only, and not after the flesh at all: God's dividing line between darkness and Light is clear cut, sharp, and distinct. No lukewarm gray middle ground: we are either pure in heart or we are not. We either love God with all the heart, or we do not.

The double minded of Romans 7, where Paul and any Christian, including myself has been, needs to be repented of to enter into the liberty without condemnation of Romans 8.

Being perfected in bodily resurrection is to make no more mistakes at all. Mistakes, such as tripping and falling down, or forgetting where the car keys are, is not sinning against the law, but is the normal plague of mortal flesh on earth.



Just being honest and humble with God is just repenting of sinning by His grace and power:

But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

Two qualities Christ hates and comes to deliver from is spiritual uncleanness of heart and sinning in the flesh: sinners cannot be humble with God, because they have yet to humble and submit themselves to God His way: stop being sorry and just repent.

The commandment to us is simple: wash and purify within the heart first. Those who believe it with the heart will do it in the fear of the Lord. Those who don't, won't.

Try asking God for the faith to do so, and see what happens when you do. If you are sincere of heart, He will answer you too:

Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

As you believe not obeying Christ's literal commands in the gospels is committing sin, and I am sure you do not faultlessly obey all of those commandments, I don't think there is anything to add

 

[robert derrick]

I hope you have a good day today...yesterday something frazzled you. :)

The pure in heart don't lash out with outrageous statements from a wounded pride. That pride comes from the part of you that is meant to go to the cross. So you are over-estimating your purity...your hands are full of blood.

Try speaking from love...inner man to inner man. There is no point in claiming to be one thing while doing the opposite.

Okay. You'll never be the pure in heart by laughing at it as vain imagination.

Better?

 

[robert derrick]

I appreciate you addressing my points.

However, that does not exclude its use in the context of sin after the fall of mankind with Adam and Eve. The context is not that of God's good creation, but rather, as it is written: of Him casting mankind out of His presence--that is all mankind, that they should know good and evil.​

​

The context is exactly about how God makes all things good, whether spiritual beings, souls, or mortal flesh. The context is about being born with sin, because of Adam sinning: not being cast out of His presence for sinning ourselves.

God does not create living souls and separate them from the womb just to then cast them out of His presence, so that they will do evil.

Lo, children are an heritage of the LORD: and the fruit of the womb is his reward.

A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: But as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world.

There is no joy in another dead sinner born into the world.

The soul which sins, it shall die: death only passes upon men because they sin, not because they are made by Christ and born in mortal flesh: death passes upon those that sin. Sin does not pass upon those that are born new and clean.

God does not cast out souls from the womb, that they may know evil by doing it. He casts them out for doing it, and knowing they did.

Only Satan is the one seeking to devour all souls born from the womb by enticing them to sin as he. (Rev 13)

Grass does not have a choice--but is prone to suffer death​

​

And so neither does flesh, which is grass to God: all flesh and grass is made mortal on earth, as is every living thing under the sun, including the stars and moons.

They all die out naturally, because they were made to die out by God.

If anything, the verse indicates that people do not have a choice at all.​

​

People do have choice, not flesh, neither grass. Flesh is grass in sight of God: people are souls in flesh and bone, not bodies of flesh with spirits.

That verse proves you wrong. It shows that "all flesh" is doomed from birth--just as all grass is. "All."​

It proves no flesh, like grass, is sinful nor righteous at all. You're teaching of the natural man being the physical mortal body is false.

Jesus' flesh was made of the seed of David by the mortal flesh of Mary's womb. The same physical seed of all men created by God, beginning with Adam in Eve.

To say that all flesh is not sinful by sinful physical seed of any man is to therefore declare Jesus' body with sinful also, being of the seed of David: a man with normal mortal seed and flesh.

All physical seed of every living creature on earth is mortal and good for producing offspring after their kind, not sinful nor righteous, just natural and mortal: the physical seed of all livng creatures on earth do what God created them to do, and that is all.

Flesh does not think for itself, neither is there in spirit in the skin tissues, bones, nor physical heart: the spirit of man is wrapped in flesh, not in flesh tissue itself.

I appreciate your responses, but you do see how we read Scripture differently. Mine is without preconceived doctrine to shape it. Yours is with eyes upon mortal bodies as being man himself: natural man and old man of sin.

We are immortal souls wrapped in mortal flesh. We have mortal bodies while on earth. We are immortal souls with spirits, not mortal bodies.

Here is more of how we read differently:

Sinful flesh is not flesh that is sinful, but is sinful man sinning with the flesh. The same with the lust of the flesh: it is not flesh having lust in it, but is souls lusting for the things of the flesh and this life.

And so also, the lust of the eyes is not eyeballs that have lust in them. Nor is the lust of the world being the stars and trees having lust in them.

Natural mortal things of heaven and earth are just that: nothing in and of themselves without the spirit to move them.

The flesh is nothing of itself while the spirit is dressed with it, and so the flesh is dead without the spirit.

I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

You say your physical body is unclean with sin. Scripture says not.

 

[robert derrick]

As you believe not obeying Christ's literal commands in the gospels is committing sin, and I am sure you do not faultlessly obey all of those commandments, I don't think there is anything to add

And so you reject the teaching. You're choice.

And to justify yourself, you judge all others by yourself.

And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Plainly, the only one you know is yourself.

So be it unto you. I'll pass.

 

[ScottA]

The context is exactly about how God makes all things good, whether spiritual beings, souls, or mortal flesh. The context is about being born with sin, because of Adam sinning: not being cast out of His presence for sinning ourselves.

God does not create living souls and separate them from the womb just to then cast them out of His presence, so that they will do evil.

Lo, children are an heritage of the LORD: and the fruit of the womb is his reward.

A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: But as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world.

There is no joy in another dead sinner born into the world.

The soul which sins, it shall die: death only passes upon men because they sin, not because they are made by Christ and born in mortal flesh: death passes upon those that sin. Sin does not pass upon those that are born new and clean.

God does not cast out souls from the womb, that they may know evil by doing it. He casts them out for doing it, and knowing they did.

Only Satan is the one seeking to devour all souls born from the womb by enticing them to sin as he. (Rev 13)

It proves no flesh, like grass, is sinful nor righteous at all. You're teaching of the natural man being the physical mortal body is false.

Jesus' flesh was made of the seed of David by the mortal flesh of Mary's womb. The same physical seed of all men created by God, beginning with Adam in Eve.

To say that all flesh is not sinful by sinful physical seed of any man is to therefore declare Jesus' body with sinful also, being of the seed of David: a man with normal mortal seed and flesh.

All physical seed of every living creature on earth is mortal and good for producing offspring after their kind, not sinful nor righteous, just natural and mortal: the physical seed of all livng creatures on earth do what God created them to do, and that is all.

Flesh does not think for itself, neither is there in spirit in the skin tissues, bones, nor physical heart: the spirit of man is wrapped in flesh, not in flesh tissue itself.

I appreciate your responses, but you do see how we read Scripture differently. Mine is without preconceived doctrine to shape it. Yours is with eyes upon mortal bodies as being man himself: natural man and old man of sin.

We are immortal souls wrapped in mortal flesh. We have mortal bodies while on earth. We are immortal souls with spirits, not mortal bodies.

Here is more of how we read differently:

Sinful flesh is not flesh that is sinful, but is sinful man sinning with the flesh. The same with the lust of the flesh: it is not flesh having lust in it, but is souls lusting for the things of the flesh and this life.

And so also, the lust of the eyes is not eyeballs that have lust in them. Nor is the lust of the world being the stars and trees having lust in them.

Natural mortal things of heaven and earth are just that: nothing in and of themselves without the spirit to move them.

The flesh is nothing of itself while the spirit is dressed with it, and so the flesh is dead without the spirit.

I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

You say your physical body is unclean with sin. Scripture says not.

That is a good sentiment and credit well given to God...but it is not accurate.

The truth of scripture tells us that one born of the flesh only will die as if dead already, and that in order to actually live one must also be born [again] of the spirit of God. In other words, no one wants to consider new born babies as being sinful from birth...but God has already decided that all who are only born of the flesh have fallen short of His glory, and have received the sentence of death.

As for Jesus, let's not forget that He was "fully man", meaning "man's heart is evil from his youth" Genesis 8:21 just as it is with all men, so also with Jesus. The fact that He did not sin, does not mean He was not born "fully" as all men were since Adam. He was also the son of David, who was evil in heart. And it is this that qualified Him to save the world from sin by death on a cross after doing no sin.

The good new however--is the good news of salvation through the Son of God, which is by the death of the flesh, but the life of the Spirit. And that God decides whom He shall draw to Himself by spiritual means...that is, not by being perfect in the flesh, which did not even save Christ from death, but by the Spirit alone. God is spirit.

The rationale then, is that God being spirit, has decided to screen good from evil to keep the spirit Holy. For which I will suggest, rather than give every word line upon line that says the same...that the life of everyone born of the flesh, is that "falling away first" and that "man of sin revealed", before the End, which is Christ Jesus. This is the manifestation of all things good and evil, the last will and testament, before the Judgement.

 

[ScottA]

People do have choice, not flesh, neither grass.

That is correct. I guess I over generalized.

 

[ScottA]

And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

And here they are:

Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.” Matthew 22:36-40

A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. John 13:34
​

Which does not say..."sin no more." That is not the issue here.

 

[stephen64]

And so you reject the teaching. You're choice.

And to justify yourself, you judge all others by yourself.

And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Plainly, the only one you know is yourself.

So be it unto you. I'll pass.

I just prefer to be honest. I don't try and justify myself at all. But all believers fall short of perfect obedience. And in my experience, it is better for others if we admit our failings, rather than infer perfect obedience, for then, you crush many sincere people who think you are living a nigh on perfect life and they feel much sorrow, guilt and depression that they are not where others claim to be

If we claim to be without sin we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us 1John1:8

 

[Davy]

I just prefer to be honest. I don't try and justify myself at all. But all believers fall short of perfect obedience. And in my experience, it is better for others if we admit our failings, rather than infer perfect obedience, for then, you crush many sincere people who think you are living a nigh on perfect life and they feel much sorrow, guilt and depression that they are not where others claim to be

If we claim to be without sin we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us 1John1:8

And what's funny, is how God likes to bring down the haughty who think they can be perfect like Him. I've seen it many times just in my life, and there's much Bible history showing it too.

 

[stephen64]

And what's funny, is how God likes to bring down the haughty who think they can be perfect like Him. I've seen it many times just in my life, and there's much Bible history showing it too.

There is indeed. The Pharisees being the best example in my view. They liked to make out they were super holy people. They cleaned the outside of the cup, but on the inside they were full of wickedness, hypocrisy and everything unclean.