Not Born with Sin Nature
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Do I detect a note of aggressiveness here? Or exasperation?
How many laws in the NT? In the Pauline epistles?
Are you a dispentationalist?
Blessings
J.
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
I guess exasperation that you haven't gone back to Romans 7 and read it in context.
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
Thank you, I was wondering when someone would bring in the obvious challenge.
After the transgression and unrepentance of Adam, all children of men were shapen in the womb and born in a world of sin and iniquity.
He confessed instead that his deeds of sin sprang from a sin nature,
A false doctrine from a false assumption added to what Scripture says:
Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Scripture only speaks of being born in, not of from nor by.
Man is conceived in a sinful world, not a sinful womb, nor by sinful physical seed of men.
The womb of a woman is no more sinful than any natural creature on earth.
As a transgressor, David was acknowledging the sinful world he was conceived and born in, though not as an excuse for having sinned like all men.
Sinners believing they are born into the world with sin nature, openly use that as an excuse for sinning by nature "Well, I'm only human", which is even quoted by Christian sinners to also excuse their ongoing sins, by claiming to still have the sin nature.
Man is conceived in a sinful world, not by nor from sinful physical seed and fleshy womb of man and woman.
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Taken
Well-Known Member
ERROR!
The SEED of man Reproduces its same KIND of thing.
Adams SEED became Corrupted.
All men thereafter ALL men Reproduce are Reproduce from Corrupted SEEDS.
God Forms and gives to Every SEED, it’s own BODY. (1 Cor 15:28)
Every Individual BODY, is a BODY wonderfully MADE; with organs, bones, tissue, flesh, blood, ears, eyes, nose, mouth, tongue; and given Gods Breath of Life (a Very Good soul), that brings that formed body, into An Individual Living state.
Man IS reproduced from a corrupt seed.
Man once naturally born, begins an Individual Living state, DEAD TO GOD, (neither knowing or believing IN God)
Once naturally born, he can either begin learning ABOUT God (taught by parents to whom a gift of the babe is given...or not).
A babe, child growing, learning to use his senses of hearing, sight, smell, touch, speaking...experiences his natural surroundings...and is being prepared to learn ABOUT God.
Again, depending on the child’s “parents/caretakers/exposure”, to the child ABOUT GOD, effects, HOW LONG the child will be CORRUPTING his soul within him, that it require at some point....RESTORATION. (Pss 23:3)
ERROR!
Sinners are Procreated from a mans Corrupt Seed.
Sinners are Made Corrupt by Not knowing or Accepting God.
Sinners are Continue IN SIN, (Called DEAD TO God), for the duration,
That they do not know God, and they do not Accept Believing in God.
God has an EXPRESS WAY, for inclusion of natural born infants, little children, mentally impaired, THAT Physically DIE, before opportunity to grow and mature in cognitive reasoning skills....
...God Searches their Hearts for their true thoughts and Saves them at the time of their infant, child, child-like physical death; regardless of the immature, inability to have learned or have cognitive reasoning skills.
No one says God made souls with sin.
God made souls.
All souls belong to God.
God puts His own breath of life in a soul.
God imparts a soul that is His, with His breath of Life, INTO the body of a man....and thereafter that soul is called by the SAME NAME, as the body of the man is NAMED.
Isa 57:
[16] For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls I have made.
Ezek 18:
[4] Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Gen 2:
[7]- Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
Gen 2:7 - Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
Gen 1
[31] And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.
Human men have NO SAYSO in becoming an off spring from a natural humans corrupt seed.
Every individual man, has opportunity to hear, learn, about God and individually Freely choose to believe IN Him, Stand With Him, Stand IN Him, or Not, and what each individual chooses, that individual bears the consequence of his choice, good or bad, favorable or unfavorable.
FALSE.
God MADE mankind, VERY GOOD...NOT Holy and Sinless.
Men MAKE themselves, NOT GOOD.
You have not understood, there is a difference between, a sin of circumstance; natural birth, not in a individuals control;
and a sin of belief; choosing, which is in a individuals control.
God OFFERS mankind, A WAY to become MADE: Wholly, Whole & Holy;
(Body, soul & spirit).
Men individually decide, choose, elect, “IF” they want to TAKE Gods OFFERING...or Not.
Glory to God,
Taken
Deviating, resorting to circular reasoning @1stCenturyLady...
Back to the topic...
Those who have true faith have truly been given new life in Christ. If a person believes in Christ, he or she has been “born of God” (1 John 5:1). Regeneration means that someone who was dead in sin is now alive in Christ (Eph. 2:4-5). However, new birth (regeneration) does not mean that the old sinful nature is completely gone. True believers still struggle with indwelling sin (Gal. 5:17). As Luther rightly said, the Christian is a saint and a sinner at the same time.
This means that when we stumble into sin, we can’t simply blame the devil or the world. The devil can mess with us and the world can entice us, but we sin because we still have the “old man” in us, the “flesh.” So how does this “old man” function in us? W. Brakel (d. 1711) explained this well in his discussion on sanctification. I’ll summarize it below:
- Sometimes the old nature stirs us up to sin by violent assaults. The lusts are so agitated and are stirring so vehemently that there is no time to think upon the fear of God. Even if the fear of the Lord is present, the lust is so strong and forceful that any good inclinations are quickly extinguished.
- Sometimes the old nature seeks some rest and relaxation. He begins to think upon natural things and the lusts of the flesh begin to stir, and the thoughts pertaining to natural things become sinful. His mind wanders and he lusts, covets, or becomes proud. He falls into more sin as the moment permits, or even to the degree he never thought himself capable of.
- Sometimes the old nature gains strength due to recklessness. He puts himself into situations he knows will ensnare him, but he does it anyway. The sin at hand gains the upper hand. Contact with grease cannot but leave a stain (vetjes maken smetjes).
- The old sinful nature also is engaged in keeping us from doing good. A) He makes us think there is no time to pray, read Scripture, sing, or meditate upon the word. B) He makes us procrastinate and say we will do godly things later. C) He makes us believe that doing good is too difficult and impossible to do. D) He makes us think that doing good is in vain because God is not paying attention and it will not benefit us. E) He makes us compromisers by saying the path is not as narrow as we think.
- The old sinful nature also wants to keep us from doing good so he attempts to spoil that which is good. A) He makes our thoughts wander. B) He distracts us by making us think about a good thing that isn’t applicable to the situation. C) He causes us to be proud of doing good, and the purity of the duty is contaminated. D) He causes us to think we do not have the Spirit. E) His atheism and unbelief surface and it ruins the good with evil.
The above edited and summarized quote is found in volume three of Brakel’s The Christian’s Reasonable Service, p. 9-11.
Shane Lems
Covenant Presbyterian Church (OPC)
Hammond, WI, 54015
Gal 5:17 For the basar desires against the Ruach HaKodesh, and the Ruach HaKodesh desires against the basar--for these oppose each other--with the result that the things you wish you cannot do (Ro chp 7).
Gal 5:18 But if by the Ruach HaKodesh you are led, you are not under [epoch of] Torah.
OJB
Blessings
J.
Guess you do not believe in the doctrine of total depravity either.... ידידי אל־תאמינו לכל־רוח כי אם־בחנו הרוחות אם־מאלהים המה כי נביאי שקר רבים באו לעולם׃
"but test the spirits" This is a Present active imperative. This is both a spiritual gift (cf. 1Co_12:10; 1Co_14:29) and a necessity for every believer, as are prayer, evangelism, and giving. This Greek word dokimazô has the connotation of "to test with a view toward approval." Believers must think the best of others unless the worst is proven (cf. 1Co_13:4-7; 1Th_5:20-21).
Utley
Still dokimazo-ing...
Blessings
J.
Incorrect...
Question
Is everyone born a sinner?
Answer
Yes, the Bible teaches all, except Christ (who was born of a virgin), were / are born as sinners.
This doctrine is sometimes called "total depravity" or "total inability." Everyone of us has a sinful nature that affects every part of our being (Isa. 53:6; Rom. 3:23; 6:23; 7:14). In this state, none can please holy God (Rom. 3:10-18; 8:7-8).
All humanity, except Christ who was born of the Virgin Mary (Isa. 7:14; Matt. 1:23; Luke 1:31), is born with a sinful nature which was inherited from Adam (Rom. 5:12-19). "Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned" (Rom. 5:12). So, every one of us was affected by Adam's sin. There are no exceptions; "one trespass led to condemnation for all men" (Rom. 5:18). We are all children of Adam (Acts 17:26), thus all share in the same condemnation.
We observe that everyone has a sin nature taught over and over again in Scripture:
Proverbs 22:15 Folly is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline drives it far from him.
Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies. /p>
Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?
So, by nature we are the children of wrath (Eph. 2:3).
Because of our sinful nature and our very sinful and corrupt actions we deserve the wrath of holy God. We are the enemies of God (Rom. 5:10; Col. 1:21; Jas. 4:4). We can't please God (Rom. 8:7-8). All people are by nature 'foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another' (Tit. 3:3). To put it another way, we are spiritually blind, deaf, dumb, having withered hands and crippled spiritual limbs (cf. Matt. 13:15). We are dead in trespasses and sin (Eph. 2:1). So, we lack any inherent spiritual good.
However, this total corruption does not mean we are as evil and bad as we could be. Everyone is not as bad as Judas, Stalin, Hitler, or Bin Laden.
God's common grace restrains the full expression of our human sinfulness. In common grace, God shows his compassion, goodness, and kindness to all his creatures (Psa. 145:9; Matt. 5:45; Luke 6:35; Acts 14:17). He exercises longsuffering / patience toward all mankind (Nah. 1:3). Every breath that the wicked take is an example of God's loving mercy. In common grace, God kept Abimelech from touching Sarah, Abraham's wife (Gen. 20:6). God also restrained David from taking revenge on Nabal (1 Sam. 25:14, 26). As David stated, "For as surely as the LORD, the God of Israel, lives, who has restrained me from hurting you, unless you had hurried and come to meet me, truly by morning there had not been left to Nabal so much as one male" (1 Sam. 25:34).
This brief examination of total depravity above reveals the reason why one must be born again (John 3:1-8). All of us were born in Adam and to please God and no longer be his enemy (Rom. 5:1, 9) one must be born into God's family where we are given a new nature that seeks after God (John 1:12-13). As Paul wrote, "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come" (2 Cor. 5:17; cf. Ezek. 11:19; 18:31; 36:26; Jer. 24:7; 2 Cor. 3:3; Gal. 6:15). Have you been born again? (John 3:3, 5).
Answer by Dr. Joseph R. Nally, Jr.
David did not accuse his mother of sin in begetting him;
Yes he did, if he was conceived with sin, which can only be by conception of lust:
But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Only from the heart is sin conceived by lust to do so. Any creature conceived with sin, is because it is conceived by lust.
As saith the proverb of the ancients, Wickedness proceedeth from the wicked: but mine hand shall not be upon thee.
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world.
Sin only proceeds from sin, and sin only enters by sinning, And so anything entering into the world with sin is only by sin, which can only be by sinning.
Man does not enter into the world with sin as all sin does, and all sin only enters into the world by man sinning.
Souls are not created with sin by God, nor are babies conceived in the womb with sin by female creatures, whether of man or beast.
Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.
Being conceived in the marriage bed is undefiled and not from nor by sin: neither the husband nor the wife are sinning, nor are they conceiving sin, which is what all sinful things are.
"brought forth amidst labor pains,"
Mortality is labor and pain in this world for all creatures, including the feamale of any creature at birth. Man and woman do not labor in pain and sweat because they sinned, but because they are now born with mortal bodies subject to nature like all creatures. Lions and lambs labor in birth without sin, even as woman.
Man was created in the likeness of God, "after his image," in a state of holiness, and innocence, Gen_8:21;
And still does, just like any created soul breathed into the womb of a woman, to give birth to a newborn babe that has not sinned like all men.
"Adam begat a son in his own likeness, after his image,"
True, bodily. God makes souls, not man. Natural man like all naturally born creatures of the earth only produce natural flesh from natural seed, which are thus made after their own image, whether man, lion, fish, or tree.
But only man is a living soul created by God in the lowest parts of the earth, and breathed into the sinless womb of a woman. No physical seed nor womb is sinful with sin nature.
This certifies that one has the germ of sin from conception and birth.
For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away.
As with grass, so with all flesh. Neither grass nor dust nor flesh is sinful nor righteous by nature: it is nothing.
Even as circumcision of the flesh is nothing:
Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
There is no sin germ nor gene in physical seed of man, nor in any physical thing on earth, whether the seed of man or of beasts or of trees of the field. It does by nature what God made it to do: to be fruitful and multiply:
God commanded man and woman to be fruitful and multiply the same as all other living creatures God created on earth, and it was called good not sinful, and after the flood He made the same commandment again (Gen 9:1) as at the beginning, and it remains good, not sinful.
The mortal body of flesh and bone and blood is nothing and dead without the spirit.
I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
Nothing physical on earth is unclean of itself: there is no sinful nature in it.
The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Jesus Christ made all things physical on earth, including the souls of men, with His life and light, not with sin.
For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.
The heart of man is not the physical heart of the mortal body: lust and evil thinking does not proceed from a blood pump.
Man cannot blame the sin nature nor the natural body for sinning in the flesh.
Man is a soul and spiritual being, not a body of flesh and blood: the soul is the blame for sinning with mortal bodies on earth.
The body is not the cause for gluttony and drunkenness and fornication, but the soul of man covered with mortal flesh is.
The earthen vessel is not the vessel of wrath: the soul which sinneth with the body, it shall die. The soul does the sinning, not the body.
And yes, there are foolish Christian sinners that think the old man of sin is the physical body, and so while their body remains a vessel of wrath going on still in sins with sin nature, their souls are vessels of honor and mercy preserved with divine nature in heavenly places.
Their souls are no more judged for sins of the body, but only the body is judged for sinning.
Being born with the sin nature from sinful physical seed of man, is the foolish tradition of men producing such strong delusion.
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
Look at Romans 7 and 8 again. Here are verses you need for context.
Romans 7:
5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. 12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good. 13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful.
Romans 8:
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
The verse you keep quoting (14-25) are those under the Old Covenant. We are under the New Covenant! Understand now?
Now maybe this verse will make more sense to you:
Romans 6:6-7
6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.
1 John 3:5-9
5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
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Let's conclude
You don't believe in total depravity
We are sinless...not true
You must believe in dispentationalism/Armeniasm correct?
Thus far you have not answered my questions exegetically
ALL .....
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
ALL means all...not this portion of scripture pertains to the Old, and this to the kainos...this is not correctly cutting straight the devar of Christ but distorting it
Still loving ya
Shalom
J.:)
Attachments
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
No. Neither Calvinism's 5 points, nor Arminianism are totally correct. And I am not a dispensationalist either. I am a student of the Bible, a child of God.
J, I edited my last post #91 - go back and read the rest of the verses. Look at them and see how they differ from what you have been taught. Then RUN from false doctrines.
Thanks for the advice, but I know the doctrines of Christ is correct and like you I am a student of the Scriptures..it is with what "lenses" we read them and any preconceived notions that we might have that is problematic.
Actually enjoyed our dialogue
Shalom to you and family
J.
:)
1Jn_3:8-9. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
He sinneth not with any pleasure, it is not the course of his life. There are, alas! in the best of men, infirmities and imperfections and failures. Would God these were all removed! Still, the man is not what he used to be; though he is not what he shall be, he is not what he once was.
Spurgeon
Blessings
J.
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
Hey Palsy Walsy (Sis),
Everyone is under the law until they are converted, aren't they? Upon conversion, the sin is forgiven, and the law is written on the heart, causing the converted one to no longer be under the law, am I right?
To me, it seems that the only contention is about the definition of, or what it is exactly that constitutes 'the law' that is written on the heart, as stated in the new covenant description in Jeremiah 31:33.
Since there is no correction, I'll keep it. And I can't take the credit for it. Another one showed me the Scripture and reasoning that corrected me, and so I must be corrected, a d all such Scriptures make perfect sense without any need to twist them por wish them away.
For instance, two scriptures that kept nagging at me about Jesus being only one of two men born without sin in the flesh, was that he was in fact made of the seed of David after the flesh. (Rom 1)(2 Titus 2)
That means David's personal physical seed of man was in the body of our Lord by David's offspring Mary, which seed was in her flesh and womb.
If the seed of flesh is sinful, so it the flesh of that seed.
So much for sinful seed and womb of any creature on earth.
No, I'm thinking you are one of the expected sinners that feels their longtime excuse for ongoing sins is threatened, and so just throw out the usual accusations with nothing to show for it.
Afterall, If you can't blame it on being born with sin without consent, then what will you blame it on? Certainly not your own soul and will. No doubt you'll go ahead and just blame it on your old vile body as certain others do.
Jesus, Paul and all the apostles were heretics to the traditions of men.
And as he thus spake for himself, Festus said with a loud voice, Paul, thou art beside thyself; much learning doth make thee mad.
And some said, What will this babbler say?
So long as I keep preaching against ongoing sins and excuses for it, without correction from other sinners such as yourself, I'm figuring I'm on good ground.
I'll let you cling to whatever tradition makes you feel good.
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BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
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