No Condemnation For Those In Christ (Romans 8:1)

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GracePeace

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It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother stumbles.
Here, the apostle describes a more egregious evil. Suppose a young man is invited to eat dinner with the pastor. When he sits down to eat, he notices that the Pastor is eating meat. What will the young man think? He might think, "The pastor is eating meat, I guess it's okay." He might think, "The Pastor is eating meat, which I know is wrong. Maybe the Pastor believes that a little sin occasionally is okay." Maybe the young man thinks, "The Pastor is eating meat, which I know is wrong. Maybe the Pastor thinks that sin is not wrong."
1 Corinthians 8
10For if someone sees you, the one who has knowledge, dining in an idol’s temple, will his conscience, if he is weak, not be strengthened to eat things sacrificed to idols? 11For through your knowledge the one who is weak is ruined, the brother or sister for whose sake Christ died. 12And so, by sinning against the brothers and sisters and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ. 13Therefore, if food causes my brother to sin, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause my brother to sin.
The main idea here is to understand how our actions can be misunderstood, especially by those who are less spiritually mature. If a young person believes that a small amount of wrongdoing is acceptable or that the pastor is not strict about morals, they might adopt the same attitude. This could lead the young person to stumble and go against their own conscience in favor of a more relaxed moral position.
1. I thought you said a Christian would never do such a thing as sin?
2. No, again, that's only one of the issues Paul is dealing with.
The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God.
One way to avoid causing a brother to stumble is to keep your beliefs private and not practice them in front of those who may not understand. You shouldn't let your freedom to eat meat be seen as moral irresponsibility.
Yep, and, so as not to raise cain, so as to avoid strife, don't do things you're free to do in front of your brothers whose convictions differ, who are "fully persuaded in their own minds" differently, because your brothers' welfare takes precedence over you walking in your freedom. That is true kindness.
Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves.
How can someone condemn himself for something he believes is right? He believes it's okay to eat meat because he understands that all food is clean. However, he might face criticism from others. To live a happy life, he needs to navigate the social norms of his community and avoid giving the impression that he approves of even a small wrongdoing or that he is morally weak.
This is addressed with even more specificity in 1 Co 8: you will bring condemnation on yourself if you are "no longer walking in love" by walking in your freedom in a selfish, destructive, way.
But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin.
Here the Apostle mentions someone who is eating meat but "not from faith." Based on his discussion so far, we can conclude that the "belief" in view is that "the kingdom of God does not consist of eating or drinking."

Thus, the word translated "doubts" should be understood as "he who is contentious". The man who causes division for the sake of food does not remember the essential truth that the kingdom of God is not about eating and drinking. His eating the meat is not consistent with a faith that places righteousness and service to Christ over religious rules and mores.
1. Again, Paul is able to deal with, and is dealing with, more than one issue at a time:
a) The issue (which you yourself have been acknowledging this entire time) that each man must be fully convinced in his own mind, and
b) The issue that even if someone is fully convinced of the rightness of his deeds in his own mind, and is free to walk in it, he is not free to do so in a selfish way, a way in which harm is brought to others (in the various ways Scripture details can occur).
2. No,
a) As in 1 Co 8, this touches on the other, former, issue: the one who does not believe he is free to do this or that before the Lord is not free to do it just because others are doing it, and if he goes beyond "each man is to be fully persuaded in his own mind", eating with doubt, instead of with faith, then he is condemned because that is sin, "because whatever does not proceed from faith is sin" (which you deny Christians commit) because "God's righteousness is revealed from faith to faith".
b) "Doubt" is a perfectly fine rendering, as it is always rendered so, because its opposite is "faith". Faith and doubt are opposites. Faith reveals God's righteousness, not our own, doubt reveals ourselves, our sinfulness.
 
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GracePeace

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It makes sense to me.
Why does it not make sense to you?
You've expressed your views on Scripture, and they do not cohere.
(You can look through our previous discussions for details--won't get further into it here.)
That you call your "understanding" of the Bible "making sense" says a lot about you.
 

GracePeace

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@CadyandZoe You sure did go through a lot of trouble to try to skirt around the issue, downplay, suppress, all to uphold your rejection of the obvious teaching of Romans 14:23 (the one who does not do what he is fully persuaded is correct is sinning and is condemned), because it threatens your assertion that those who are in Christ cannot ever not be found in Him.

It is absolutely transparent what you are doing and why.
You may congratulate yourself, but, to everyone else, it couldn't be clearer what you are doing.
How could you let yourself do that to Scripture?
 

GracePeace

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But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin.
Here the Apostle mentions someone who is eating meat but "not from faith." Based on his discussion so far, we can conclude that the "belief" in view is that "the kingdom of God does not consist of eating or drinking."

Thus, the word translated "doubts" should be understood as "he who is contentious". The man who causes division for the sake of food does not remember the essential truth that the kingdom of God is not about eating and drinking. His eating the meat is not consistent with a faith that places righteousness and service to Christ over religious rules and mores.
No, not even close:

Calvin's Commentary on the Bible

Verse 23​

23.But he who is undecided, etc. He very fitly expresses in one word the character of that mind which vacillates and is uncertain as to what ought to be done; for he who is undecided undergoes alternate changes, and in the midst of his various deliberations is held suspended by uncertainty. As then the main thing in a good work is the persuasion of a mind conscious of being right before God, and as it were a calm assurance, nothing is more opposed to the acceptance of our works than vacillation. (435) And, oh! that this truth were fixed in the minds of men, that nothing ought to be attempted except what the mind feels assured is acceptable to God, men would not then make such an uproar, as they often do now, nor waver, nor blindly hurry onward wherever their own imagination may lead them. For if our way of living is to be confined to this moderation, that no one is to touch a morsel of meat with a doubting conscience, how much greater caution is to be exercised in the greatest things?

And whatever is not from faith, etc. The reason for this condemnation is, that every work, however splendid and excellent in appearance, is counted as sin, except it be founded on a right conscience; for God regards not the outward display, but the inward obedience of the heart, by this alone is an estimate made of our works. Besides, how can that be obedience, when any one undertakes what he is not persuaded is approved by God? Where then such a doubt exists, the individual is justly charged with prevarication; for he proceeds in opposition to the testimony of his, own conscience.

The wordfaith is to be taken here for a fixed persuasion of the mind, or, so to speak, for a firm assurance, and not that of any kind, but what is derived from the truth of God. Hence doubt or uncertainty vitiates all our actions, however specious they may otherwise be. Now, since a pious mind can never acquiesce with certainty in anything but the word of God, all fictitious modes of worship do in this case vanish away, and whatever works there may be which originate in the brains of men; for while everything which is not from faith is condemned, rejected is whatever is not supported and approved by God’s word. It is at the same time by no means sufficient that what we do is approved by the word of God, except the mind, relying on this persuasion, prepares itself cheerfully to do its work. Hence the first thing in a right conduct, in order that our minds may at no time fluctuate, is this, that we, depending on God’s word, confidently proceed wherever it may call us.

(435) The Greek isὁ διακρινόμενος, “he who discerns,” that is, a difference as to meats; so [Doddridge ], [Macknight ], and [Chalmers ] regard its meaning. [Beza ] has “qui dubitat — who doubts,” and so our version. The word used by [Calvin ] is dijudicat , which properly means to judge between things, to discern, but according to his explanation it means to judge in two ways, to be undecided.

The verb no doubt admits of these two meanings; it is used evidently in the sense of making or putting a difference, but only, as some say, in the active voice. There are indeed two places where it seems to have this meaning in its passive or middle form, James 2:4, and Judges 1:22. But as Paul has before used it in this Epistle, Romans 4:20, in the sense of hesitating, staggering, or doubting, we may reasonably suppose that it has this meaning here, and especially as in every place where he expresses the other idea, he has employed the active form. See 1 Corinthians 4:7; 1 Corinthians 11:29; etc. — Ed.
_______

Since it is raised in the commentary...

Romans 4
20No unbelief made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God,

Should the word be translated "contentious" there, too?

Of course not, because, not least, the theme is faith, and we see that the counter to the "wavering by reason of doubt" is "faith"--same as is the case in Romans 14:23 (the theme is faith, "each man must be fully convinced in his own mind", and the counter, the opposite, to the "wavering" is "faith", "he who wavers is condemned if he eats, because what ever does not come from faith is sin").
 
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GracePeace

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Quote me, where that can even be suggested... @GracePeace
Since I like staying on topic, we can start on topic: how do you resolve the apparent tension between Romans 8:1 and 14:23?

My solution is to just take some basic truths into account:
1. There is no condemnation for those "in Christ" Ro 8:1
2. Believers who break the rule of faith are condemned Ro 14:23
3. Remaining "in Christ" is by keeping Christ's commands Jn 15:4-10; 1 Jn 3:23,24
4. Children are warned to remain 1 Jn 2:28, abstain from idolatry 1 Jn 5:21
5. Sinning is idolatry Ep 5:5
6. Each man is to be fully convinced in his own mind Ro 14:6
7. Disobeying #6, acting in doubt, is sin Ro 14:23
3. Remaining in Christ is by keeping Christ's commands Jn 15:4-10; 1 Jn 3:23,24​

Solution: Instances of sin are instances of not remaining in Christ.
 
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Behold

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Romans 8:1

"To walk after the spirit"..

This is "NT speak".... Its Paul's way of defining being born again Spiritually.

As to not walk after the Spirit would be to not be born again.

Romans 14:23

"eating" is not going to "damn" anyone... who is forgiven all their sin, 2000 yrs ago by the Cross of Christ.
That is pretty obvious to anyone who understands what Christ has accomplished by His Sacrifice.

Some who have no idea what that is all about, would disagree of course.

So, this "damning" is to be under the condemnation of your own conscience.

Its "self" condemnation.
 

Eternally Grateful

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I thought you folded a long time ago. Were you wanting to go back and answer all those answers I supplied you with, or were you still bowing out?
I never fold my friend. Especially with someone so lost he is easy to show everyone who reads how lost he is.

Answer Behold and the accusation you made him.

As for me stop responding. I learned awhile ago to stop feeding people Ego.. It is better to walk away
 

GracePeace

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"To walk after the spirit"..

This is "NT speak".... Its Paul's way of defining being born again Spiritually.

As to not walk after the Spirit would be to not be born again.
Irrelevant.
"eating" is not going to "damn" anyone... who is forgiven all their sin, 2000 yrs ago by the Cross of Christ.
That is pretty obvious to anyone who understands what Christ has accomplished by His Sacrifice.
I answered this empty objection already:
1. "Mere" eating plunged the entire history of humanity into damnation.
Sorry, precedent is against your empty speculation.
2. To be clear, I'm not saying a single sin and a Christian is damned forever (they can get back on track by faith) I'm just making sense of the Scripture, which indicates they're not abiding in Christ.

Some who have no idea what that is all about, would disagree of course.

So, this "damning" is to be under the condemnation of your own conscience.

Its "self" condemnation.
Paul says it is God's rule they are breaking, so how do you conclude it is solely themselves they are offending?
"Against You and You alone have I sinned".
 
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GracePeace

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I never fold my friend. Especially with someone so lost he is easy to show everyone who reads how lost he is.

Answer Behold and the accusation you made him.

As for me stop responding. I learned awhile ago to stop feeding people Ego.. It is better to walk away
LOL Right, the hypocrite emptily accuses the one he accuses.
I'm not pouring my resources into interacting with you until you've gone back and answered all of those answers I gave you.
 

GracePeace

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"eating" is not going to "damn" anyone... who is forgiven all their sin, 2000 yrs ago by the Cross of Christ.
They weren't forgiven 2,000 years prior, or else they wouldn't have been born "children of wrath".

They are forgiven when they are included in that people to whom the sacrifice applies: Christ being the High Priest who entered the Holy of Holies indicates that the sacrifice applies to the nation, but members may be added to and removed from that nation ("cut off from his people" (Gen 17:14; Ex 30:33, etc), "cut off for unbelief" (Ro 11:20)) to which the sacrifice applies, When we are added to that nation, when we believe, is when we are forgiven.

Leviticus 4
...in this way the priest will make atonement on their behalf, and they will be forgiven.

So, the forgiveness cannot come until a priest makes an atonement on their behalf--and it doesn't come until they're included in the Nation to which Christ's sacrifice applies.
 

Eternally Grateful

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LOL Right, the hypocrite emptily accuses the one he accuses.
I'm not pouring my resources into interacting with you until you've gone back and answered all of those answers I gave you.
I did answer them man, As usual you blame shift. You did nto like my answers. so you cry like a baby as to how I did not answer you

I am just calling you out for once again deflecting when another poster asked you to prove your accusation against him.

I could care less if you answer me or not.. But I am sure all the readers see what you did. and I am just helping them to see.
 

CadyandZoe

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This is the only verse I need to address to prove my point.

Are you denying the explanation Paul is giving--the one who eats with doubt is committing a sin, and is condemned, because what ever does not proceed from faith is sin (ie, if the man had walked in full persuasion, he would've been fine, but he did something without faith, with doubt, so he broke the rule, sinned, and is condemned), the breaking of the rule "each man is to be fully convinced in his own mind", such that the one in view would be the brother who believes he may only eat vegetables, contrary to his belief, eating meat, or the one who holds a day as special, contrary to his belief, not observing the day?
Firstly, people don't eat with doubt. That's not a thing, so I don't think Paul meant "doubt." The person Paul refers to is the meat-eater who feels free to eat meat because they believe that "all foods are clean." Paul agrees with the meat eaters, stating that Christians are free to eat meat because all foods are clean.

He criticizes those who have forgotten that "the kingdom of God is not about eating and drinking, but about righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit." He talks about a scenario where a meat-eater judges and distinguishes between meat-eaters and vegetarians. In other words, if a meat-eater or a vegetarian judges another person based on what they eat, they are not acting in faith, which means they are not remembering that the kingdom of God is not about eating and drinking, but about righteousness, peace, and joy.

Better?
 
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Eternally Grateful

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Nope, I responded at length, and you waved it all away with a non-related comment that did not at all answer all of those answers I spent my time bringing to you, so engaging at length is no longer warranted (you'll just do the same again).
I will put you back into the corner until you learn to be nice and stop being a bad boy
 

GracePeace

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Firstly, people don't eat with doubt. That's not a thing, so I don't think Paul meant "doubt."
Oh, really? Why is eating such a special activity that you are seemingly saying God doesn't care about it? Didn't God give laws about eating (not that we're held to them today)? So, why wouldn't God care today? Of course God cares--He cares about everything!
God spelled out which foods were clean, and which were unclean, and, today, what is unclean is what ever that individual considers to be unclean--he is free to walk in his conviction, but if he breaks his conviction, the food actually defiles him.
The person Paul refers to is the meat-eater who feels free to eat meat because they believe that "all foods are clean." Paul agrees with the meat eaters, stating that Christians are free to eat meat because all foods are clean.
No, because Paul said even if the meat eater ate with faith, he was wrong to do it if his faith caused others to stumble, and, now, Paul delineates the sin of the one who eats without faith, eating while wavering about its correctness.
He criticizes those who have forgotten that "the kingdom of God is not about eating and drinking, but about righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit." He talks about a scenario where a meat-eater judges and distinguishes between meat-eaters and vegetarians. In other words, if a meat-eater or a vegetarian judges another person based on what they eat, they are not acting in faith, which means they are not remembering that the kingdom of God is not about eating and drinking, but about righteousness, peace, and joy.

Better?
Nope, the issue is "what ever does not proceed from faith is sin" because "each man is to be fully convinced in his own mind" about what ever he does, just as it says, "Whether you eat or drink, or what ever you do [observe the day or not], do all for God's glory."
 

GracePeace

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Firstly, people don't eat with doubt. That's not a thing, so I don't think Paul meant "doubt."
If you want to deny people eat with doubt, why would you affirm people eat with faith?
LOL
If "doubt" and "faith" are not categories that apply to eating, how have you been affirming that this whole time (when referring to the one free to eat meat, and the one not free to eat meat)?
 

GracePeace

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"eating" is not going to "damn" anyone... who is forgiven all their sin, 2000 yrs ago by the Cross of Christ.
They are forgiven when they are included in that people to whom the sacrifice applies: Christ being the High Priest who entered the Holy of Holies indicates that the sacrifice applies to the nation, but members may be added to and removed from that nation ("cut off from his people" (Gen 17:14; Ex 30:33, etc), "cut off for unbelief" (Ro 11:20)) to which the sacrifice applies, When we are added to that nation, when we believe, is when we are forgiven.
Think of it: when God demotes Israel (Hos 1), He first calls them "No Mercy", then calls them "Not My People": God's people are those upon whom God has mercy.

Becoming part of that people also means partaking in God's mercy.

No, the sins were not forgiven 2000 years ago--the atonement was made, but it only applies to the nation, and you only become a member when you hear with faith.
 
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