The words apostolic succession don’t appear but the doctrine does
so you have a personal covenant with Jesus?
No authority!
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The words apostolic succession don’t appear but the doctrine does
so you have a personal covenant with Jesus?
I'm curious, what do you find different in being "saved" and being "redeemed"?
I know the word there in Ephesians is "saved", not redeemed. Even so, how does this change the meaning of the passage for you? Not to debate, just to inquire.
Much love!
The doctrine does not appear so far as I can find. Ephesians 2 tells me that we who were far away are now brought near. Acts 17 tells me that He wants me to search for Him, to find Him, He's not far. Romans 10 tells me the words of faith are in my very mouth, I need only speak them. There are many more.
And yes, I do have a personal covenant with Jesus.
He offered that any who are weary and heavily burdened to come to Him, and He would give them rest. So I came to Him, per His offer, and He has given me rest.
Much love!
Illuminator
Well-Known Member
Catholic priests are for Catholics, so no, you don't need them. But because we have priests, that does not make us automatically wrong. One either accepts the New Testament sacrificial human Priesthood or they don't. Most Bibles call them elders. There is nothing in scripture that abolishes sacramental ordination, or Paul is wrong in even mentioning elders (priests).
James 5:14 Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord;
It doesn't say any believer will do. You should be correcting James.
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BreadOfLife
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First of all - THANK YOU for correctly using the abbreviation "CC" instead of "RCC" as so many people ignorantly do.
As for the rest of your post - WHO do you think succeeeded the Apostles?
PS - PLEASE say, "Nobody", so I can present the Scriptural case as you're wrong.
So then what do you make of the fact that this passage in Ephesians uses the word for "saved"?
Much love!
Redemption, Justification, Sanctification, and Salvation!
Redemption: 100 percent the work of God, thru the life, death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus Christ! All mankind are redeemed in Christ! Eph 2
Galatians 2:16 3:13
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law...
Christ alone accomplished the redemption of mankind apart from any works on our part!
Justification: our acceptance of redemption thru faith and baptism! Become a disciple and member of Christ and His Church! Jn 3:5 acts 2:38 Mk 16:16 He who believes and is baptized shall be saved. 1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Sanctification: the life of grace in the holy sacrifice of the mass and sacraments, prayer, virture, and good works, the just living by faith, and faith working thru love! Phil 1:29 called to suffer with Christ.
All done in Christ thru His grace! Jn 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Salvation: a christian in the state if grace at the moment of death we enter into the salvation of the Lord! Mt 24:44-47 faithful servant! Jn 15:1-5 abide in me. Mt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Heb 6:11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
Heb 4:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Rom 13:11 ...for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
Suffering required for glorification with Christ!
Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
Redemption: 100 percent the work of God, thru the life, death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus Christ! All mankind are redeemed in Christ! Eph 2
Galatians 2:16 3:13
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law...
Christ alone accomplished the redemption of mankind apart from any works on our part!
Justification: our acceptance of redemption thru faith and baptism! Become a disciple and member of Christ and His Church! Jn 3:5 acts 2:38 Mk 16:16 He who believes and is baptized shall be saved. 1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Sanctification: the life of grace in the holy sacrifice of the mass and sacraments, prayer, virture, and good works, the just living by faith, and faith working thru love! Phil 1:29 called to suffer with Christ.
All done in Christ thru His grace! Jn 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Salvation: a christian in the state if grace at the moment of death we enter into the salvation of the Lord! Mt 24:44-47 faithful servant! Jn 15:1-5 abide in me. Mt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Heb 6:11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
Heb 4:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Rom 13:11 ...for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
Suffering required for glorification with Christ!
Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
You are welcome! I learned about that here!
:)
Succeeded in what sense? The priesthood? Penning Scripture? Going into unevangelized areas and sharing the Gospel? That would be the direct meaning of apostle. Sent one.
We call them missionaries now.
Much love!
This was an unexpected answer!
:)
But I don't see elders in the same way as how we describe a priesthood.
When you speak of the priest . . . one of my main objections is the idea that we receive forgiveness through the priest. Is it your view then that I don't have to receive the Eucharist from a Catholic Priest to be saved? Or is that required? Confession to a priest? Is that required?
Much love!
Illuminator
Well-Known Member
Those are requirements for Catholics, not for non-Catholics. Jesus gave the Apostles the power to forgive sins. Confession was nothing new to them, the Jews had been confessing their sins for centuries.
Num. 5:7, Neh. 9:2-3, Sir. 4:26, Baruch 1:14
How can an Apostle forgive sins without hearing them? They are not mind readers.
Where in scripture does it say this power to forgive sins would vanish with the death of the last Apostle??? That's Mormonism. Why do non-Catholic Christians have to be so dogmatic about something that is not in scripture???
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My thinking here is that Jesus gave these men this authority, but I don't see it given to anyone else. So rather than to assume that they could and did transfer that authority to others, I just stick what what I read in the Bible.
Jesus also "breathed on them, saying, Receive the Holy Spirit." This was before pentacost. It was at that same time that Jesus gave them authority to remit and retain sins.
I don't see any other hint in Scripture that this was repeated with any others, or was "transferable". So why be dogmatic that it was? Right?
But I must say, I find your approach to this topic very refreshing!
:)
Much love!
Illuminator
Well-Known Member
Fr. Dwight Longenecker Blogs
Some time ago I was speaking at a large Catholic conference and the organizers had put some time for confession into the program, so I joined with the other priests and spent a couple of hours hearing confessions.
There were nearly a thousand people signed up for the conference so all around the room there were long lines of ordinary people waiting to make their confession.
In seeing this I thought of the sheer practicality, dignity and grace of this beautiful sacrament.
Here were probably five or six hundred people who had the opportunity for someone to listen to them. They were able to see a professional career at no cost. They were able to consult with (hopefully) a wise, cheerful, well trained man who even for a couple of minutes would give them his undivided attention, help them see things more clearly, point the way through the thicket of their problems and assure them that they were loved and accepted for who they are.
This was not some sort of shallow self-help pep rally, but a down-to-earth, dignified, simple and personal connection for ordinary people. They don’t need umpteen sessions of psychoanalysis. They don’t need expensive treatments. They just need a bit of help, a bit of guidance, a bit of forgiveness, a bit of attention, a bit of love.
These were ordinary people with ordinary broken hearts, broken marriages, broken relationships, broken lives and broken hopes. These were ordinary folks who wouldn’t normally run to see someone with their problems full of self-pity. Instead they were doing the best they can, seeking God, seeking holiness, seeking happiness, seeking all that is beautiful, good and true.
But of course, confession is more than therapy for people with low self-esteem.
On the contrary, these were not humiliated people groveling before a fearsome God. They were people with great dignity and maturity, for one of the most dignified and fully human things you can do is to admit you are not totally together and you need help. It is not a sign of weakness, but a sign of strength and self-reliance and true self-respect to say, “I can do better than that.” It is a full human and mature thing to say, “I am better than that, and I’m going to find forgiveness and pick myself up and try again and if I need to — to get some help.”
Everybody who has ever become great and done great things has come to that point.
What each person also got was a sacrament. The sacraments, remember, are a physical means of grace. They got a pat on the back, a quiet word, a smile, a gently hug, a bit of encouragement from another human being — Jesus in the form of a priest.
The ordinariness of this sacrament is therefore a most beautiful and simple thing. God coming to us in the form of Jesus in that priest. So I looked around at my fellow priests. They were there with me for over two hours. They were patient and kind. They were attentive and listening. I spotted one fellow wiping his brow. It’s hard work. I saw another check his watch. “Yes, you really have been here for over an hour and the lines are still long.”
An attendant sidled up and asked if I needed a bottle of water. I said, “Could I have a bottle of whiskey instead?”
The folks in the line heard me and laughter all around.
So this is not the gloomy, dark and guilt-ridden sacrament lapsed Catholics so often complain about. This was God’s people meeting God together.
For remember — grace is given. Grace is given not only for forgiveness, but for the power to overcome the sin. Grace is given that we might move ever upward to “grow up into the full humanity of Jesus Christ.”
This was heaven come down to earth, with forgiveness in its wings.
This was children talking to their Fathers.
This was prodigal sons and daughters on the journey home.
The Practical Beauty of Confession
Some time ago I was speaking at a large Catholic conference and the organizers had put some time for confession into the program, so I joined with the other priests and spent a couple of hours hearing confessions.
There were nearly a thousand people signed up for the conference so all around the room there were long lines of ordinary people waiting to make their confession.
In seeing this I thought of the sheer practicality, dignity and grace of this beautiful sacrament.
Here were probably five or six hundred people who had the opportunity for someone to listen to them. They were able to see a professional career at no cost. They were able to consult with (hopefully) a wise, cheerful, well trained man who even for a couple of minutes would give them his undivided attention, help them see things more clearly, point the way through the thicket of their problems and assure them that they were loved and accepted for who they are.
This was not some sort of shallow self-help pep rally, but a down-to-earth, dignified, simple and personal connection for ordinary people. They don’t need umpteen sessions of psychoanalysis. They don’t need expensive treatments. They just need a bit of help, a bit of guidance, a bit of forgiveness, a bit of attention, a bit of love.
These were ordinary people with ordinary broken hearts, broken marriages, broken relationships, broken lives and broken hopes. These were ordinary folks who wouldn’t normally run to see someone with their problems full of self-pity. Instead they were doing the best they can, seeking God, seeking holiness, seeking happiness, seeking all that is beautiful, good and true.
But of course, confession is more than therapy for people with low self-esteem.
On the contrary, these were not humiliated people groveling before a fearsome God. They were people with great dignity and maturity, for one of the most dignified and fully human things you can do is to admit you are not totally together and you need help. It is not a sign of weakness, but a sign of strength and self-reliance and true self-respect to say, “I can do better than that.” It is a full human and mature thing to say, “I am better than that, and I’m going to find forgiveness and pick myself up and try again and if I need to — to get some help.”
Everybody who has ever become great and done great things has come to that point.
What each person also got was a sacrament. The sacraments, remember, are a physical means of grace. They got a pat on the back, a quiet word, a smile, a gently hug, a bit of encouragement from another human being — Jesus in the form of a priest.
The ordinariness of this sacrament is therefore a most beautiful and simple thing. God coming to us in the form of Jesus in that priest. So I looked around at my fellow priests. They were there with me for over two hours. They were patient and kind. They were attentive and listening. I spotted one fellow wiping his brow. It’s hard work. I saw another check his watch. “Yes, you really have been here for over an hour and the lines are still long.”
An attendant sidled up and asked if I needed a bottle of water. I said, “Could I have a bottle of whiskey instead?”
The folks in the line heard me and laughter all around.
So this is not the gloomy, dark and guilt-ridden sacrament lapsed Catholics so often complain about. This was God’s people meeting God together.
For remember — grace is given. Grace is given not only for forgiveness, but for the power to overcome the sin. Grace is given that we might move ever upward to “grow up into the full humanity of Jesus Christ.”
This was heaven come down to earth, with forgiveness in its wings.
This was children talking to their Fathers.
This was prodigal sons and daughters on the journey home.
The Practical Beauty of Confession
Illuminator
Well-Known Member
Paul was rather dogmatic about transferring his authority to Timothy and for him to ordain "faithful men". You should be correcting Paul.
2 Tim. 2:2
:)
Much love![/QUOTE]
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This is wonderful!
It's also like what we do in our group of 8, and what my wife and I do with each other.
Though I only have one Father in heaven. While a man may minister Jesus to me, in the same manner, I minister Jesus to others, that is, if I'm doing rightly.
Then I also believe our sins are forgiven in Christ, so we don't return for more forgiveness.
If you truly don't see an exclusivity in this doctrine, that other churches aren't real or valid, not having priests to hear confession and to bless the Eucharist, that removes a great deal of my objection.
I'd want to make certain that Jesus' followers know that they have a direct and full and open relationship with God Himself, and that the true forgiveness, and grace to stand, comes directly from Him.
Meanwhile, a roomful of Christians ministering to each other is a beautiful thing!
Much love!
Illuminator
Well-Known Member
Scroll up to post #1736
2 Tim. 2:2 – this verse shows God’s intention is to transfer authority to successors (here, Paul to Timothy to 3rd to 4th generation). It goes beyond the death of the apostles.
If you want more verses, here is a list:
APOSTOLIC AUTHORITY AND SUCCESSION - Scripture Catholic
Why would anyone insist that Timothy was not a successor to Paul? It's not so much a disagreement as it is a language barrier.
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2 Timothy 2:1-3 KJV
1) Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.
2) And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.
3) Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.
Isn't this passage about being taught and teaching others?
edit to add . . . as I look at this passage, that's what it is. Paul teaches Timothy, and charges Timothy to teach others, who will likewise teach. But there is no transfer of authority here.
Much love!
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