No authority!

[Marymog]

Of course not.

Please do share. What else did the Spirit reveal to you?

 

[Marymog]

No. I'm trying to take man asserted authority out of the equation. (And I am not merely talking about the individual error in the face of the collective communion with the Holy Spirit but among denominations).

Let's say the question of whether or not one can lose their salvation. I know for a fact that there are doctrinal differences among denominations on this point. My previous verses should guide, e.g., Mark 9:38-40, 50, Isaiah 1:18, and 1 Corinthians 9:22.

To say it differently, Jesus teaches that our differences should not rise to the level of breaking the peace. We can talk, attempt to persuade each other from the error of our ways. However, when push comes to shove, it explains denomination.

Yup, there are doctrinal differences on salvation. So what man's interpretation of those passages do you adhere to?

 

[Marymog]

The Council of Trent

The Council of Trent (Latin: Concilium Tridentinum), held between 1545 and 1563 in Trento (Trent) and Bologna, northern Italy, was one of the Roman Catholic Church's most important ecumenical councils. Prompted by the Protestant Reformation, it has been described as the embodiment of the Counter-Reformation. (FN 2).

Trent placed several "anathemas" upon Protestants. This means that those who disagree with the doctrines of the Catholic Church are "cursed" (cf. Gal. 1:8-9). Catholics excommunicate those under anathema. In other words, excommunication means being outside the "Church." Being outside the "Church" (specifically meaning the Roman Catholic Church [RCC]) means one is are not saved according to RCC doctrine. Here are the words of the anathema ceremony drawn up by Pope Zachary (751-52):

… Wherefore in the name of God the All-powerful, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, of the Blessed Peter, Prince of the Apostles, and of all the saints, in virtue of the power which has been given us of binding and loosing in Heaven and on earth, we deprive [insert name] himself and all his accomplices and all his abettors of the Communion of the Body and Blood of Our Lord, we separate him from the society of all Christians, we exclude him from the bosom of our Holy Mother the Church in Heaven and on earth, we declare him excommunicated and anathematized and we judge him condemned to eternal fire with Satan and his angels and all the reprobate...(FN 3).

The Council of Trent has about one hundred anathemas within it. Here is a small sample concerning Justification:

Canon 1. "If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema."
Canon 4. "If any one saith, that man's free will moved and excited by God, by assenting to God exciting and calling, nowise co-operates towards disposing and preparing itself for obtaining the grace of Justification; that it cannot refuse its consent, if it would, but that, as something inanimate, it does nothing whatever and is merely passive; let him be anathema."

Canon 9. "If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema."

Canon 11. "If any one saith, that men are justified, either by the sole imputation of the justice of Christ, or by the sole remission of sins, to the exclusion of the grace and the charity which is poured forth in their hearts by the Holy Ghost, and is inherent in them; or even that the grace, whereby we are justified, is only the favour of God; let him be anathema."

Canon 12. "If any one saith, that justifying faith is nothing else but confidence in the divine mercy which remits sins for Christ's sake; or, that this confidence alone is that whereby we are justified; let him be anathema."

Canon 24. "If any one saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema."

Canon 30. "If any one saith, that, after the grace of Justification has been received, to every penitent sinner the guilt is remitted, and the debt of eternal punishment is blotted out in such wise, that there remains not any debt of temporal punishment to be discharged either in this world, or in the next in Purgatory, before the entrance to the kingdom of heaven can be opened (to him); let him be anathema."

Canon 32. "If any one saith, that the good works of one that is justified are in such manner the gifts of God, as that they are not also the good merits of him that is justified; or, that the said justified, by the good works which he performs through the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose living member he is, does not truly merit increase of grace, eternal life, and the attainment of that eternal life, . . . and also an increase of glory; let him be anathema."

Ummmmm.....I don't see anywhere in that quote where it says that The Church teaches that "those who depend on Christ alone through faith for salvation are to be condemned to hell".

Is it on one of the specific canons you quoted? I can't find it.

 

[Marymog]

The church that claims the chair of Peter is all of man. The Holy Spirit has not been near it for at least the last 1700 years.

Really????? Fascinating....The Holy Spirit told you that?

Did the Spirit tell you which church is The Church spoken of in Scripture? Or did it only tell you which one wasn't? I would think it would have told you which one it was if it told you which one to avoid.

 

[Wrangler]

Yup, there are doctrinal differences on salvation. So what man's interpretation of those passages do you adhere to?

I don't understand your question. What passages? What interpretations by man? Are you asking me:
1. my view on losing salvation or
2. my view on how to handle differences in denominational doctrines on the matter?

 

[justbyfaith]

Please do share. What else did the Spirit reveal to you?

That all scripture is given by inspiration of the Lord and that everything in holy scripture is the revelation of the Holy Spirit to mankind.

 

[justbyfaith]

Did the Spirit tell you which church is The Church spoken of in Scripture? Or did it

The Holy Spirit is a "He" not an "it".

 

[Paul Christensen]

Ummm....I already told you that not all priests are unmarried and celibate. Do you have any intentions of correcting your false belief?

But to go in line with what you just said Paul said it best when talking about celibacy and he called it a gift from God: I wish that all of you were as I am (celibate). But each of you has your own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that.

More on that: 1 Corinthians 7:32-40
1 Corinthians 7:1-5

The married priests are those only Anglican and Lutheran priests who have decided to join the RCC priesthood. No freshly ordained RCC priests are allowed to be married. This is a ruling from Pope Francis himself.

 

[Paul Christensen]

LOL...Pope Francis didn't rule against ordaining married priests in general. What you have quoted are in regards to the situation in Ammonia.

As I have already told you....THERE ARE MARRIED PRIESTS.

Ammonia? Where's that?

 

[Paul Christensen]

Ummmmm.....I don't see anywhere in that quote where it says that The Church teaches that "those who depend on Christ alone through faith for salvation are to be condemned to hell".

Is it on one of the specific canons you quoted? I can't find it.

The word "anathema" means "condemned to hell", because it involved being excommunicated from the true Church, and only those in the true Church will go to heaven. Where do you think those who are excommunicated go?

 

[Paul Christensen]

Really????? Fascinating....The Holy Spirit told you that?

Did the Spirit tell you which church is The Church spoken of in Scripture? Or did it only tell you which one wasn't? I would think it would have told you which one it was if it told you which one to avoid.

There is no fellowship between the Holy Spirit and paganism. As soon as Constantine, in the 4th Century, introduced his pagan style of worship into the established Roman church, the Holy Spirit departed.

 

[Marymog]

There is no fellowship between the Holy Spirit and paganism. As soon as Constantine, in the 4th Century, introduced his pagan style of worship into the established Roman church, the Holy Spirit departed.

Ok......Sooooooo what "paganism" did Constantine introduce into The Church?

And when the Holy Spirit departed, where did it go? According to your theory the gates of hell prevailed against The Church in the 4th century. According to Scripture the gates of hell will not....well, you know the rest.

 

[Marymog]

The word "anathema" means "condemned to hell", because it involved being excommunicated from the true Church, and only those in the true Church will go to heaven. Where do you think those who are excommunicated go?

Well, that is NOT what the word means....but I get your point.

Sooooo you still didn't quote the Council of Trent where it said that The Church teaches that "those who depend on Christ alone through faith for salvation are to be condemned to hell".

I look forward to your quote....You have failed thus far.

 

[Marymog]

Ammonia? Where's that?

Lol.....dang spell check.

You know what I am talking about dodge ball. You used the word Amazonia in your statement sooooo don't play dumb.

 

[Marymog]

The married priests are those only Anglican and Lutheran priests who have decided to join the RCC priesthood. No freshly ordained RCC priests are allowed to be married. This is a ruling from Pope Francis himself.

Well, you are partially right. You are wrong in that Pope Francis made this ruling. As you previously stated, of which you apparently forgot, it was in the Council of Trent document. Pope Francis wasn't at the Council of Trent. He only reiterated a long held teaching of The Church. One that Paul agreed with

Why do you have a problem with The Church agreeing with Scripture???

 

[Marymog]

The Holy Spirit is a "He" not an "it".

Ok dodge ball......sooooo Did the Spirit tell you which church is The Church spoken of in Scripture? Or did the Spirit only give you a partial truth???

Patient and curious Mary

 

[Marymog]

That all scripture is given by inspiration of the Lord and that everything in holy scripture is the revelation of the Holy Spirit to mankind.

Lol.....Ok.....thanks. I can see that you have realized that you can't back up what you say so you are talking in circles....I'm getting dizzy so I will end it here.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Ok......Sooooooo what "paganism" did Constantine introduce into The Church?

And when the Holy Spirit departed, where did it go? According to your theory the gates of hell prevailed against The Church in the 4th century. According to Scripture the gates of hell will not....well, you know the rest.

I'll let your fingers do the walking - you can look it up on Google for yourself.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Well, that is NOT what the word means....but I get your point.

Sooooo you still didn't quote the Council of Trent where it said that The Church teaches that "those who depend on Christ alone through faith for salvation are to be condemned to hell".

I look forward to your quote....You have failed thus far.

Oh come on! I thought you were more intelligent than that! Don't you really know that excommunication from the "true" church (ie: the RCC) means (to them) that the person has nowhere else to go but hell?

Are you joking...really???

 

[Paul Christensen]

Lol.....dang spell check.

You know what I am talking about dodge ball. You used the word Amazonia in your statement sooooo don't play dumb.

I had to get a dig in somewhere! :)

Pope Francis' ruling about the request to ordain priests in the Amazon because of the shortage, reflects any ruling he may make about ordaining married men to the priesthood anywhere. To be ordained as a priest in the RCC one has to be authorised by the Pope, and he will not authorise married men unless they are already Anglican or Lutheran priests converting to Catholicism.

This is because a priest to be a true representative of Jesus, who was an unmarried virgin, he has to follow His pattern of celibacy. If he is married, then he is not viewed as following Jesus' pattern and therefore cannot be a true priest.

Celibacy of priests has always been controversial within the Church, and the Eastern Church refused it and have married priests. But it seems that successive popes have been part of the party that fully supports celibacy, and so they have ruled accordingly when the issue has come up.

The present questioning of celibacy will not cause a change in policy under Pope Francis, because he seems totally committed to the policy of celibacy for priests.

It seems that you are pretty one-eyed about this, and so you would make a very good Canterbury New Zealand rugby referee!