new version of OSAS?

[Taken]

there was need for Word of God to become flesh

"A" need certainly historically appeared necessary, To maintain and spread the Word of God....(One God WHO IS "unseen" and the World making up multiple gods...the seen moon, the seen statues, etc. )
Men are a peculiar bunch...Believing the spoken Truth, is a challenge. Ah ha, so man says...
SEEING IS BELIEVING...men wanted to SEE God.

The 'need' was up to God.
The "manner" to fulfill the "need" was up to God.
God Foretold...the "manner".

there was need for faith to come and given them.

Faith is not NT notion. The NT gives more details ABOUT Faith.

We should not set aside the grace of God, for if there was salvation other than by the grace of God in Christ Jesus, then Christ died in vain.

Are you accusing someone of "setting aside the Grace of God"? If so be blunt. If not what is the point of that comment?

Remember, that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. That all have sinned is indisputable and that the wage of sin is death is inevitable.

Thanks, Remember well and have posted on more than one occasion those facts.

So that, the mercy of God and His grace of forgiveness does not mean that the due and just payment and suffering for the penalty of sin is done away with.

* The Body Still must die, payment for sin.
* Suffering continues at the hands of men, because Jesus suffered at the hands of men.
* The "penalty" for SIN, "under" the Law, were "curses" (the penalities), written in the Law were Carried out by the Priest. If you are still under the law, that penalities would still apply.

In the perfect justice of God, every sin will receive its wage, and not a single sin is left unpunished or unpaid.

If you were or are under the law, already addressed.
If you were never under the law, your sin was Against God (disbelief).
If you are converted, your sin Against God for disbelief is forgiven...and you can sin no more.
Your payment for your sin of your Flesh is Bodily death.
If you were crucified with Christ, you have PAID your payment.
If you are Converted...bodily crucified with Christ , or one crucified with Christ & physically dead, saved soul, quickened spirit...you Are a member of Christ's Church.
The Lamb is the bridegroom.
Christ' Church is the Bride.
The Order, Protocal, traditional historical jewish festivities, marriage, and marriage supper will be the same for the Lamb and His Bride.

So tell us, why was there need for a new covenant if at all, the old
Covenant people could remain faithful?

Scripture tells you and already addressed that. "Could and Would remain faithful ARE twice different things."

That is exactly my point, that there is no salvation apart from Christ.

And? Who disputed that, for that exactly to be your point?

So, tell us why it is absolutely necessary.

Please tell us why they could not be justified by the law.

Because a LAW can not save a man.

 

[Taken]

What in what I said do you not agree with or you object to?

Broadly your circular responses.
Your asking what was already told you.
Simple concepts you want explained after explicitly already telling you.

Gifts are Offered. Grace is Offered.
Take it or leave it. If you are FORCED to TAKE it ... it's against your will.

Remake...(you do know Made is the past tense of Make...right?)

Already addressed this and gave you scriptures.
See?....man IS created and made.

Gen 2
[3] And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

See?....Man who Accepts Gods Offering IS MADE AGAIN...(ie re-make)

Ezek 18
[31] Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

 

[Taken]

So, what is your answer to the question, “With that state and condition of fallen mankind, what choices and work do you think could naturally be expected out of him?”

Naturally choice expected....
...natural body survival.
Natural work expected....
...all means of work to keep bodily alive..
(War, killing before being killed, medicines, guards, etc. )



<<<His Chosen People"?>>>

Needless really to say is that they are those whom we read in the scriptures such as the men and women mentioned in Hebrews 11, the remnants of Israel according to the election of grace, the seed of Abraham, not the children according to the flesh, but the children of promise, like Isaac. And exactly who they are, will be known with utmost certainty and without mistake, at the time of the revealing of the sons of God. For now, we could only take them to be those who profess to have faith in God and Jesus Christ and on the basis of the indications set forth in the scriptures concerning them.

Would you agree WHO knows for sure, IF they ARE "chosen", is God and the individual man?

<<<"WHEN" exactly did they become His Chosen People?>>>

Scriptures said that they were chosen even before the foundation of the world.

Sure...Spiritually...(Become was meant Manifested, Revealed.)

<<<"WHY" exactly did they Become...His CHosen People?>>>

God has His purpose and reasons for sure, in choosing them. Some take the position that God chose them because they chose Him and love Him.

I take that position.

However, that is inconsistent with the truth that they chose and love God because God first chose and loved them.

The Lord is First in all things. Period.
No doubt He Loved us First.
He didn't choose me First, I am a Gentile.
I didn't choose God, BECAUSE He loved me First.
I chose God, BECAUSE I TRUST to Believe He IS God and Want Him For my God.

<<<"HOW" exactly did they Become...His Chosen People?>>>

By His sovereign will of course.

To General. Disagree.
I would say they Became His Chosen People, Expressly because they Agreed to DO ALL that He SAID.

And He does it by the election of grace such as how it was with the remnants of Israel mentioned in Romans 11:5.

I had mentioned Grace for Grace.
God finding Grace "IN a man".
God having found Grace IN a man, God accounted as Righteous.

Do you think...election of grace...means God still finding Grace in men, accounting them righteous, and electing/ choosing to give HIS Grace, unto them?

<<<What about all the "People NOT His Chosen?">>>

And what about them? I fully trust in the goodness, wisdom, and judgment of God. I have no doubt whatsoever that the election of grace is righteous and good, even while to the eyes and thinking of people, according to human thinking, reasoning, wisdom, philosophy, and moral standards of the world, they find it objectionable, unreasonable, unrighteous, unjust, or what.

Simply put, Scripture reveals they are damned.

<<<Was His Son NOT "GIVEN" TO THEM For those things?>>>

You tell me. Why would the Father give His Son to the unchosen, as pertaining to salvation unto eternal life? Though He was given to them as pertaining to salvation from His wrath such as that He poured out at the time of Noah, where all were wiped off the earth and were all killed, saved Noah and seven of his family, who received grace from God.

The "Chosen", The " Unchosen", do not KNOW
Their standing, Before they ARE naturally Born. They hear, they learn, THEY Choose God or Not....Then they know their Standing...Chosen or Not.

<<<some people Choose to rather not accept His Offering.

....A person MUST Accept what He has Given or Offered.>>>

Why, to whom do you think Jesus’ offering is offered to for acceptance?

ALL humans.

Do you think it is offered to man for their acceptance?

Yes.

 

[Tong2020]

<<<What God Offers man man may Freely elect to Take or Reject.>>>

Agree. But our issue is whether the grace of the salvation of God is an offer or not. Your take is that it is an offer. On the other hand my take is that it is not.

All you need to do is show at least a couple of scriptures that supports your take. On the other hand, that there is no scriptures that speaks that the grace of the salvation of God is an offer supports my take.

So, if you have scriptures to show, do so. Thanks.

There is no Scripture I am aware of that Bullit Points Scripture in the fashion you are requesting...TO WHIT;
i.e. requesting a Scripture that says;
Salvation of Gods Grace IS or IS Not an Offering.[/QUOTE]Not requesting like so. You can give scriptures that effectively say that, not necessary verbatim.

Rather it IS "an understanding" of a culmination of Scriptures.

Inanutshell, my view IS:
"IF" a man can TAKE IT or REJECT IT...
IT IS AN "OFFERING".

Adam was OFFERED, the "TREE OF LIFE".
Adam chose to REJECT, that offering.

Gen 2:
[9] And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

All Men are OFFERED, Jesus' Body.
Some men Choose to Accept His OFFERING.
Some men Choose to Reject, His OFFERING.

Heb 10:
[5] Wherefore when he cometh into the world , he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

Heb 10:
[10] By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.


Gods WILL to Prepare Jesus a Body.
Gods WILL to Send that Body into the world.
Gods WiLL to Offer Body to ALL men OF the world.
Gods WILL...that ALL men WHO Agree and WHO Accept Gods OFFERING...
GOD SHALL by HIS WILL, by HIS GRACE, by HIS WORD, by HIS POWER..."GIVES THAT MAN exactly WHAT He OFFERED"...
SALVATION of that mans soul.
QUICKENING of that mans spirit.
His Word of Promised RAISING UP of that mans body in glory.

Heb 10:
[14] For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Gods OFFERING...
....IS by, of, through, Gods WILL.
Mans ACCEPTING...
....IS by, of, through the mans WILL.

Them (men) that ARE sanctified...
ARE sanctified ... Expressly Because they Agreed to Accept Gods Offering.

By "logical AND spiritual" "experience and wisdom"....to arrive at a conclusion...

Them (men) that ARE sanctified...
ARE sanctified ... Expressly Because they Agreed to Accept Gods Offering.
Them (men) that ARE NOT sanctified...
ARE NOT sanctified ... Expressly Because they DID NOT Agree to Accept Gods Offering.

Gods WILL TO OFFER, has zero effect, on what any man chooses.
Meaning...Regardless of what men elect TO CHOOSE...has no effect on Gods "Standing Offer."
* Gods OFFER PREVAILS, since the Day God Declared His Offering Of Jesus' BODY... generation after generation of men naturally born, the Offer Applies TO THEM...and ANY man;
Can Agree to Accept Gods OFFERING...
or NOT.

WISDOM...
IF YOU CAN TAKE IT, or REJECT IT...
It's IS an Offering.

I sit at the supper table...the dish of "peas" are "passed" from hand to hand, being "offered" hand to hand...eh, I reject TAKING, and pass the dish along.

Simple conclusion. I was offered. I reject. I do not have or consume peas.

Same conclusion. Men are offered Salvation. They reject. They neither have Salvation or the Lord (WHO IS SALVATION), with or IN them.

Luke 19
[9] And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.

Read Luke 10:1-8.... SEE WHO was in THAT HOUSE, SEE WHOSE house that was, SEE WHO IS SALVATION.

Men who ARE "sanctified", ARE "sanctified", BECAUSE "SALVATION" IS come TO them and IS IN THEM.
Zacchaeus, by his will scurried to SEE Jesus.
Zacchaeus, of short stature, could not See Jesus coming in a crowd.
Zacchaeus, made an effort, to climb a tree, to see Jesus.
Jesus looked up, saw Zacchaeus, saw his effort.... and
Jesus "invited" Himself to house of Zacchaeus....
Zacchaeus with JOY, scurried home and prepared his house for Jesus to enter.
Jesus...went to Zacchaeus house.

Pay close attention...
WHO Zacchaeus saw enter his house..
Was Jesus.
WHAT entered Zacchaeus' house, Jesus' clearly revealed...SALVATION.

You DO NOT AGREE, "Grace of Gods Salvations" is an Offering.

If it be NOT an OFFERING, then How or Why can a man REJECT TAKING?

And How can a man TAKE, what is not First Offered?....which by default...TAKING that which is NOT OFFERED; is called THEFT.

It becomes a matter...of:
Does God Force Salvation on a man?
Does a man Steal Salvation from God?
Or Does God Offer a man Salvation and man receives Gods Offering, by Agreeing to Take it?
How do you answer these questions?

Not one of the scriptures you referenced effectively teach what you teach, that salvation is an offering nor that the grace of salvation is offered.

<<< If it be NOT an OFFERING, then How or Why can a man REJECT TAKING?

And How can a man TAKE, what is not First Offered?>>>

Those questions are coming and are tainted with the assumption that it is something that one gets to reject or not. And I think that I have somehow addressed that in my past posts. Anyway, let me give you a picture of the grace of salvation of God. Fallen man are outside paradise. Whatever he does, he remains to be outside paradise. God’s salvation is the taking of one and put him inside paradise. When God take you out of the world outside paradise and put you to be inside paradise, you have been saved. And that was not really of your choosing nor of your working, but all of God.

<<<Does God Force Salvation on a man?>>>

No. And neither it is offered. As scriptures teach, salvation is grace and by grace.

<<<Does a man Steal Salvation from God?>>>

Silly question. But no.

<<<Does God Offer a man Salvation and man receives Gods Offering, by Agreeing to Take it?>>>

No. God does not offer man salvation. God saves, by grace, granting or giving it to one according to His will, purpose, and pleasure.

Tong
R3868

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Yes the choice to believe in God is ours to make. But the choice to save is God’s to make. Paul said “we believed”, for the reason stated in the passage. But that is because and after God worked in and on each of them, having given them spiritual understanding of the truth, thereby giving them the knowledge of the truth, having touched their hearts that brings them to repentance unto God, fully persuading them of the truth, which is the giving of faith in and on Jesus Christ, that powerfully moved them to freely believe and trust in God. And so they have chosen. They have chosen to believe and have chosen to love God because God had chosen and loved them first.

Perhaps this is the one point over which I disagree. I believe God loves all the people He made, and would save them all if only they would.

I think John MacArthur gave the very best Bible study on point I've ever heard! I want to find it again and memorize it. By the time he was done, I felt he had taken in your view and my view both, and represented both fairly and Scripturally, and I knew why he believed what he did, and I was confident he knew why I hold my view. And somehow through it all, he unified us all. It was really good!

Much love!

<<<I believe God loves all the people He made, and would save them all if only they would.>>>

I believe so too that God loves all of His creation. However, before that, God loves God.

The creature first of mankind in and through whom all man will be brought forth to actual personal existence, sinned. There was a universal and everlasting consequence to that. God’s love for mankind was not gone nor changed because of that. But God hates sin and all those who sin willfully stands to be against Him and have sided with sin, willfully placing themselves under the wrath of God rather than under the love of God. They were made as slaves and chained by the power of death, powerful enough to render them like a literal dead man in the grave, as pertaining to righteousness and of the things of the Spirit of God.

Now, God knows man more than we know other men and even more than we know ourselves. Besides that, God has His will and purpose. We learn in scriptures of the truth about God’s will of destroying the ancient serpent and his seed, through the seed of the woman. Not only that, but that He willed to take out a people from out of the world of fallen mankind, whom He will save. Regarding this people, our natural thinking tells us that those whom He chooses are those whom He knows are righteous, have good intentions, does good works, etc. Perhaps we are right. But that remains just to be only what we think. However, one thing is certain, God chooses them according to His will, purpose, pleasure, and divine nature. And that is the point, that God saves and is the One saving, and that salvation is of God and God’s work, and is not in any way shape or form, of man and the work of man.

Curious what you say about what John MacArthur said related to the subject of our discussion.

Tong
R3869

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
<<<Faith IS required BEFORE a heart is opened.>>>

I disagree. Consider Abram. Consider the people who aren’t of the children of Israel, the gentiles, who were not a worshiper of God.

And what faith are you referring to? Faith that is of man, or faith that comes from and is of God?

Hearing the word of God, is exactly what is taught.
God OPENING ones Heart, is a blessing from God...FOR a man HEARING.
The OPENING ones Heart, is not Baptism.
It IS; a blessing, that the man WITH an OPENED Heart, can Believe what the Lords Word IS Saying.

"Consider Abram?"
* Sure. God spoke to Abram.
Abram listened. Abram trusted and DID what God directed him to do.
By understanding, I conclude, God spoke to Abram, God opened Abrams Heart, Abram DID (verified in Scriptural published writing), what God directed Abram TO DO.

Before God spoke to Abram, did he have faith in God or he did not? Was he a believer and worshiper of God or a worshiper of gods?

Now God spoke to Abram. How did Abram get to hear God’s voice? How did Abram knew that whose voice he hears is the voice of the true God? I am pretty sure you know that, only to those whom God enabled to hear His voice are those who will hear it. Remember the conversion of Paul? That could only point to A supernatural miraculous act of God in and on Abram. And that is the giving of faith by God to Abraham. For faith comes by hearing and hearing the word of God. Having been given faith, and God having worked in and on him, Abram freely and willfully believed and trusted God. That is obviously purely of grace and by grace. And that same grace, that same blessedness given to him, was not only given to Abram, but to his seed. Abram knew not who they are even. Scriptures gives us a hint, if not, tells us generally who they are. So from Abram, beginning with the promise God made to him and his seed, what transpires there after is an unfolding of the work of God on His promise, more than it is anything.

Tong
R3870

 

[Tong2020]

"Consider the people who aren’t of the children of Israel, the gentiles, who were not a worshiper of God?"

* Sure I've considered ... why the Division came about. (Rather a lengthy study)...
But in Brief...
Nothing new, What God has Created and Made, God Divides.
Good - Evil
Up - Down
Light - Dark
In - Out
Clothed - Naked
Hebrews - Gentiles
* Of all the Divisions, One is Favored of God, One is not. (Not a secret)

WHY did one become Favored, and one Not?
Simple:
one AGREED to Listen, Follow & Do.
one made no such Agreement.

Follow the History, who agreed, who didn't.
Those who agreed and failed to keep their Agreement, corrected through punishment.

Through "correction" some became forgiven, continued to follow in agreement.
Through "correction", "displacement", "influence" (of men never having followed God)...instead followed other gods, (of the Gentiles)

Gentiles mimicked the Hebrews, in a sense, to have "a god". Gentiles, in their own group around the world "decided" what would be their "god" (and there were many gods of the Gentiles).

Jesus' arrival, was to Offer men, (All men, Jew and Gentile) something they had never had before;
Hidden Truths;
Absolute guarantee;
of forgiveness, of saving of their soul, of quickening of their spirit, of their body being justified to be raised in immortality, of forever Gods Spirit to be WITH and IN them;
IMMEDIATELY.
IF
The Confessed to Believe in the Lord God Almighty.

It is an absolute Option and guarantee for men to CHOOSE, to be WITH and IN God through Christ Forever, Kept By Gods Power
...or NOT.

Did OT Gentiles have the Option to follow the Hebrew God...Sure and some did.
Did OT Hebrews have the Option to follow Gentile gods...Sure and some did.
Do NT and men today have the Option to follow ANY god they Choose? Sure and most do...while some reject following any god.
As Always God has made a provision Before and During the Tribulation for Jews and Gentiles alike to Hear and Follow God through Christ the Lord Jesus.
..Some do, some don't...some will during the Tribulation, some will not.

<<<Nothing new, What God has Created and Made, God Divides.
Good - Evil
Up - Down
Light - Dark
In - Out
Clothed - Naked
Hebrews - Gentiles>>>

It is not division that is the point. If there be any division of good and evil, up and down, night and day, light and dark, in and out, clothed and naked, has nothing to do with God’s choosing of Abraham among all peoples in his generation, and gave him grace and blessing him, and will make him a great nation and that in him all the families of the earth will be blessed. That os not division but is election.

So having said that, why there are the people of the children of Israel, distinguished from the other peoples of the world, generally called Gentiles, have to do with God’s promise to Abraham and with God’s election.

<<<WHY did one become Favored, and one Not?>>>

The Israelites did not by their choice become the nation Israel.

<<<Jesus' arrival, was to Offer men, (All men, Jew and Gentile) something they had never had before;
Hidden Truths;
Absolute guarantee;
of forgiveness, of saving of their soul, of quickening of their spirit, of their body being justified to be raised in immortality, of forever Gods Spirit to be WITH and IN them;>>>

Jesus did not come to offer salvation. He came to save His people, from both the Jewish and the Gentile peoples.

Also, Jesus said that He came into the world that He should bear witness to the truth and that everyone who is of the truth hears His voice.

Tong
R3871

 

[Taken]

No. God does not offer man salvation.

God saves, by grace, granting or giving it to one according to His will, purpose, and pleasure.
[QUOTE]

Yes, Salvation IS Offered ALL men.

Heb 10:
[10] By ... the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Yes, men CAN freely TAKE His Offering.

Rom 10:
[9] That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Yes, it is the WILL of God our Savior all men to be saved.

1 Tim 2:
[4] Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

No, it is NOT the Lord's WILL any man should perish.

2 Pet 3:
[9] The Lord is not ...willing that any should perish...

* It is For Gods Pleasure, and BY Gods Will, Word, Power;
God created and made mankind.
* It is BY the Grace of Gods WILL;
God offers mankind Salvation.
* It is BY Gods Word, Gods Offer of Salvation is Given for man.
* It is By mans Freewill TO Hear Gods Word, Gods Offering, and Accept Gods Offering...
(OR NOT)
* It is By Gods Will, Word, Power, Grace, Promise...HE SHALL SAVE A MAN... IF
* The man; BY his own Freewill, BY his own Ability, BY his own word, BY his own confession...Heartfully BELIEVES IN the Lord God.

It is not confusing...
*By Gods Grace; God Offers.
*Man Can Take or Not Gods Offering.
* Men who Take Gods Offering SHALL be Saved, and Forever WITH and IN the Lord God.
* Men who Reject Gods Offering SHALL be Damned, and Forever WITHOUT the Lord God.

 

[Taken]

Before God spoke to Abram, did he have faith in God or he did not? Was he a believer and worshiper of God or a worshiper of gods?

For the first 75 years of Abrams life, I have no knowledge of:
IF Abram had knowledge of God,
IF Abram had faith in God,
IF Abram was a believer in God,
IF Abram was a worshiper of God,
IF Abram worshiped other gods.

Now God spoke to Abram. How did Abram get to hear God’s voice?

Same WAY, any man can hear God's voice...
By and Through Oracles.

How did God knew that whose voice he hears is the voice of the true God? I am pretty sure you know that, only to those whom God enabled to hear His voice are those who will hear it.

John 5:
[37] ... the Father himself... Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

Remember the conversion of Paul? That could only point to A supernatural miraculous act of God in and on Abram. And that is the giving of faith by God to Abraham. For faith comes by hearing and hearing the word of God. Having been given faith, and God having worked in and on him, Abram freely and willfully believed and trusted God.

I have already said men have freewill.
Seems you have been arguing Against men having Free will...while claiming Abram had freewill.

What's your point?

 

[Taken]

<<<Nothing new, What God has Created and Made, God Divides.
Good - Evil
Up - Down
Light - Dark
In - Out
Clothed - Naked
Hebrews - Gentiles>>>

It is not division that is the point. If there be any division of good and evil, up and down, night and day, light and dark, in and out, clothed and naked, has nothing to do with God’s choosing of Abraham among all peoples in his generation, and gave him grace and blessing him, and will make him a great nation and that in him all the families of the earth will be blessed. That os not division but is election.

The POINT has everything to DO with Gods DIVISION.
A person Choosing IS a persons Election.
God Choosing IS Gods Election.

Gods DIVISION IS precisely God Dividing People Unto Himself, From People Not "With" Him.

Gods ORDER and WAY is paramount.
OT men...
routinely chose God, deflected from God...
Men WITH God...then eh...NOT WITH God.
* You know....same thing men DO among people...
* With a wife...then eh...Divorce her...
* With a preacher...then eh...denounce him...
* With a employer...then eh...leave that job...
* With a neighbor...then eh...relocate...
* With a friend...then eh..sever the friendship


Is there Nothing new in the NT ?
Can men be WITH God...then not? Yes.
See nothing new there!

WHAT "IS" NEW in the NT?
Men "WITH" God...WHO FREELY Choose/Elect:
TO Accept the Lord OFFERING, TO BE, (by and through "GODS POWER"...
"FOREVER".... WITH and IN God.

Once, a man chooses/elects to Accept Gods OFFERING....TO FOREVER, BE made...(by Gods POWER)...
"WITH and IN" God....
THAT MAN "IS" once and forever "DIVIDED" FROM ALL OTHER men....
WHO ARE NOT "WITH and IN" God.
(Which "IS" summed up in the acronym...
Once Saved Always Saved )

So having said that, why there are the people of the children of Israel, distinguished from the other peoples of the world, generally called Gentiles, have to do with God’s promise to Abraham and with God’s election.

How many times do you require being told?
OT men WHO Freely chose/elected to REMAIN "WITH" God....God Divided unto Himself... His ELECT.

Men WHO (in this day) Freely choose/elect to REMAIN "WITH" God....God Divides unto Himself...His ELECT.

Men WHO Freely choose/elect to Belief in their Heart, Confess with their mouth...IN the Lord God....Become MADE (by his Grace, Power, Pleasure)....His ELECT.

The Israelites did not by their choice become the nation Israel.

So? That was not a point of discussion.

Jesus did not come to offer salvation. He came to save His people, from both the Jewish and the Gentile peoples.

Trying to Argue The Power of God is limited to THIS OR THAT is Moot.

Jesus absolutely...
Came to Save His People.
Jesus absolutely...
Offered Salvation to ALL People.

Also, Jesus said that He came into the world that He should bear witness to the truth and that everyone who is of the truth hears His voice.

Sure...Not news, Jesus came as the Son of man...men can hear men's voices.
Crowds "OF" Believing and non-believing men gathered and they ALL Heard Jesus' Voice.
Some chose to believe what they Heard, Some chose to not believe what they Heard.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
there was need for Word of God to become flesh

"A" need certainly historically appeared necessary, To maintain and spread the Word of God....(One God WHO IS "unseen" and the World making up multiple gods...the seen moon, the seen statues, etc. )
Men are a peculiar bunch...Believing the spoken Truth, is a challenge. Ah ha, so man says...
SEEING IS BELIEVING...men wanted to SEE God.

The 'need' was up to God.
The "manner" to fulfill the "need" was up to God.
God Foretold...the "manner".

<<<"A" need certainly historically appeared necessary,…>>>

Not that it appeared necessary. That God did it, indisputably shows that it was necessary.

there was need for faith to come and given them.

Faith is not NT notion. The NT gives more details ABOUT Faith.

Yes. And they have to have faith. Not faith that is from them and of them, but faith that comes from God and is of God.

We should not set aside the grace of God, for if there was salvation other than by the grace of God in Christ Jesus, then Christ died in vain.

Are you accusing someone of "setting aside the Grace of God"? If so be blunt. If not what is the point of that comment?

Not at all. It is a rhetorical statement to make my point. But since it seems not to be of your taste, please disregard it, and accept my apologies if the “we” somehow have offended you in any way.

Let me then say my point in another way. If there was salvation other than by the grace of God in Christ Jesus, then Christ died in vain.

So that, the mercy of God and His grace of forgiveness does not mean that the due and just payment and suffering for the penalty of sin is done away with.

* The Body Still must die, payment for sin.
* Suffering continues at the hands of men, because Jesus suffered at the hands of men.
* The "penalty" for SIN, "under" the Law, were "curses" (the penalities), written in the Law were Carried out by the Priest. If you are still under the law, that penalities would still apply.

The wages of sin is more than those you mentioned there, but is even the second death, in the lake of fire mentioned in the book of revelations.

In the perfect justice of God, every sin will receive its wage, and not a single sin is left unpunished or unpaid

If you were or are under the law, already addressed.
If you were never under the law, your sin was Against God (disbelief).
If you are converted, your sin Against God for disbelief is forgiven...and you can sin no more.
Your payment for your sin of your Flesh is Bodily death.
If you were crucified with Christ, you have PAID your payment.
If you are Converted...bodily crucified with Christ , or one crucified with Christ & physically dead, saved soul, quickened spirit...you Are a member of Christ's Church.
The Lamb is the bridegroom.
Christ' Church is the Bride.
The Order, Protocal, traditional historical jewish festivities, marriage, and marriage supper will be the same for the Lamb and His Bride.

That is not only the payment for sin, but ever amounts to the second death.

So tell us, why was there need for a new covenant if at all, the old Covenant people could remain faithful?

Scripture tells you and already addressed that. "Could and Would remain faithful ARE twice different things."[

Of course scriptures tells us. I asked you, for me to know what you get out from your reading of that part of scriptures because it seems that to you, the new covenant was not really necessary or needed.

That is exactly my point, that there is no salvation apart from Christ.

And? Who disputed that, for that exactly to be your point?

So, tell us why it is absolutely necessary.

If you don’t dispute that, okay then. That means that any one who is not in Jesus Christ, whether Jew or Gentile, is not of the saved.

Please tell us why they could not be justified by the law.

Because a LAW can not save a man.

Right, the law cannot save a man. But the question is why they could not be saved by the Law or why they could not be justified by the Law.

Tong
R3872

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
What in what I said do you not agree with or you object to?

Broadly your circular responses.
Your asking what was already told you.
Simple concepts you want explained after explicitly already telling you.

Gifts are Offered. Grace is Offered.
Take it or leave it. If you are FORCED to TAKE it ... it's against your will.

Remake...(you do know Made is the past tense of Make...right?)

Already addressed this and gave you scriptures.
See?....man IS created and made.

Gen 2
[3] And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

See?....Man who Accepts Gods Offering IS MADE AGAIN...(ie re-make)

Ezek 18
[31] Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

<<<Gifts are Offered. Grace is Offered.
Take it or leave it. If you are FORCED to TAKE it ... it's against your will.>>>

Not so with the grace of salvation and others such as of mercy, of forgiveness, etc. Not so with the gifts of God, such as faith, healing, teaching, etc. They are not for Him to offer to man, but are for Him to give.

Still no scriptures given that effectively says the grace of salvation is offered by God to man for the taking or not.

Tong
R3873

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
So, what is your answer to the question, “With that state and condition of fallen mankind, what choices and work do you think could naturally be expected out of him?”

Naturally choice expected....
...natural body survival.
Natural work expected....
...all means of work to keep bodily alive..
(War, killing before being killed, medicines, guards, etc. )

Yes, carnal things. Selfish choices and works. None concerning God or pertaining to the spiritual. See?

Tong2020 said: ↑
<<<His Chosen People"?>>>

Needless really to say is that they are those whom we read in the scriptures such as the men and women mentioned in Hebrews 11, the remnants of Israel according to the election of grace, the seed of Abraham, not the children according to the flesh, but the children of promise, like Isaac. And exactly who they are, will be known with utmost certainty and without mistake, at the time of the revealing of the sons of God. For now, we could only take them to be those who profess to have faith in God and Jesus Christ and on the basis of the indications set forth in the scriptures concerning them.

Would you agree WHO knows for sure, IF they ARE "chosen", is God and the individual man?

God knows for certain. But with regards the individual, some come to know, some don’t.

Tong2020 said: ↑
<<<"WHEN" exactly did they become His Chosen People?>>>

Scriptures said that they were chosen even before the foundation of the world.

Sure...Spiritually...(Become was meant Manifested, Revealed.)

It is God who have chosen. And scriptures said He chose them before the foundation of the world. And I believe that literally.

But that would be translated to man’s view point, that time, to any chosen individual, may be the moment that God begins to work out to convert him or her. Not necessarily, the time when he/she is converted.

Tong2020 said: ↑
<<<"WHY" exactly did they Become...His CHosen People?>>>

God has His purpose and reasons for sure, in choosing them. Some take the position that God chose them because they chose Him and love Him.

I take that position.

I don’t. I am in the position that I chose and love God because God chose and loved me first.

Tong2020 said: ↑
However, that is inconsistent with the truth that they chose and love God because God first chose and loved them.

The Lord is First in all things. Period.
No doubt He Loved us First.
He didn't choose me First, I am a Gentile.
I didn't choose God, BECAUSE He loved me First.
I chose God, BECAUSE I TRUST to Believe He IS God and Want Him For my God.

We are talking about the matter of God’s choosing people according to His will, purpose, pleasure and divine nature, pertaining to salvation.

John 15:16
You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.

1 John 4:19
We love Him because He first loved us.

Tong2020 said: ↑
<<<"HOW" exactly did they Become...His Chosen People?>>>

By His sovereign will of course.

To General. Disagree.
I would say they Became His Chosen People, Expressly because they Agreed to DO ALL that He SAID.

Well that makes me chosen by His sovereign will, and that makes you chosen because you agreed to do all that He said.

Regarding your position, so you are chosen by God because you agreed to do all that He said. What happens if you don’t do ALL that he said?

Tong
R3874

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
And He does it by the election of grace such as how it was with the remnants of Israel mentioned in Romans 11:5

I had mentioned Grace for Grace.
God finding Grace "IN a man".
God having found Grace IN a man, God accounted as Righteous.

Do you think...election of grace...means God still finding Grace in men, accounting them righteous, and electing/ choosing to give HIS Grace, unto them?

By Election of grace is that the choosing is by grace. Romans 11:6 helps us understand it.

Tong2020 said: ↑
<<<What about all the "People NOT His Chosen?">>>

And what about them? I fully trust in the goodness, wisdom, and judgment of God. I have no doubt whatsoever that the election of grace is righteous and good, even while to the eyes and thinking of people, according to human thinking, reasoning, wisdom, philosophy, and moral standards of the world, they find it objectionable, unreasonable, unrighteous, unjust, or what.

Simply put, Scripture reveals they are damned.

Yes the NOT chosen people.

Tong2020 said: ↑
<<<Was His Son NOT "GIVEN" TO THEM For those things?>>>

You tell me. Why would the Father give His Son to the unchosen, as pertaining to salvation unto eternal life? Though He was given to them as pertaining to salvation from His wrath such as that He poured out at the time of Noah, where all were wiped off the earth and were all killed, saved Noah and seven of his family, who received grace from God.

The "Chosen", The " Unchosen", do not KNOW
Their standing, Before they ARE naturally Born. They hear, they learn, THEY Choose God or Not....Then they know their Standing...Chosen or Not.

Yes.

Tong
R3875

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
<<<some people Choose to rather not accept His Offering.

....A person MUST Accept what He has Given or Offered.>>>

Why, to whom do you think Jesus’ offering is offered to for acceptance?

ALL humans.

Jesus’ offering was offered to all humans? I think that position is a mistake. For it is to Father that He made the offering to, not to man. For it is to God that any sacrifice of atonement is offered. For it is God who will accept or not. For it is to God that an offering of sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins is made.

Tong2020 said: ↑
Do you think it is offered to man for their acceptance?

Yes.

No. It is an offering to God, not to man, as I have pointed out above.

Tong
R3876

 

[Taken]

That God did it, indisputably shows that it was necessary.

I have not been disputed Gods Works.

Let me then say my point in another way. If there was salvation other than by the grace of God in Christ Jesus, then Christ died in vain.

I have not disputed Gods Grace.

The wages of sin is more than those you mentioned there, but is even the second death, in the lake of fire mentioned in the book of revelations.

The second death would be relevant to mention pertaining to one who is NOT Saved.

Of course scriptures tells us. I asked you, for me to know what you get out from your reading of that part of scriptures because it seems that to you, the new covenant was not really necessary or needed.

I never said the new covenant was not necessary or needed.
It was expressly determined "necessary" needed", BY God Himself.
*** THE WHY, was BECAUSE:
The blood of animals, given BY MEN, for an offering TO GOD, FOR forgiveness (remission) FROM God, To men, FOR their sins.......
Had Become Corrupt!
The Offering OF MEN, TO God, Of an animals blood had a very specific Order and Way...
The Order and Way, was not followed, BY MEN....
***That is the HOW, that Offering, became Corrupt.

God, BECAUSE of HIS GRACE...(His OWN willingness)...God "OFFERED MEN" a NEW ORDER and WAY, to Receive 'Forgiveness' (remission) for their sin.

* Any man can Accept His NEW WAY....
or NOT.

* Gods OFFERING IS JESUS" BLOOD, for the "Forgiveness" (remission) OF the mans Sin.

* Any man can Accept Gods Offering of Jesus' Blood...OR NOT.

* As there was an Express Order and Way for men to Accept Gods Way (of Animal blood For remission of sin)

* So also is ther an Express Order and Way for men to Accept God Way ( of Jesus' blood For remission of sin)

BY Gods Grace, was such an Offering established....for animal blood, and THEN for Jesus' blood to be Offered for remission of a mans sin.

the question is why they could not be saved by the Law or why they could not be justified by the Law.

To receive Salvation requires forgiveness.
To receive Forgiveness requires Blood to be Offered.
To receive Justification requires Blood to be Received.

The law does not have blood.

 

[Taken]

<<<Gifts are Offered. Grace is Offered.
Take it or leave it. If you are FORCED to TAKE it ... it's against your will.>>>

Not so with the grace of salvation and others such as of mercy, of forgiveness, etc. Not so with the gifts of God, such as faith, healing, teaching, etc. They are not for Him to offer to man, but are for Him to give.

Still no scriptures given that effectively says the grace of salvation is offered by God to man for the taking or not.

Tong
R3873

Study Gods Order.
Study Gods Way.
Total abt 1200 verses.
THEN perhaps a meaningful discussion could be had.

 

[Taken]

It is God who have chosen.
And I believe that literally.

That's nice.
I believe
God knew men before their natural birth,
...men did not know themselves before their
...natural birth.
God is the creator, men are the created.
God is the maker, men are the made.
God is the Teacher, men are students & teachers.
God knows converted men...
...Converted men, know God.
God has Grace, men have grace.
God has Power, men have power.
God Offers, men offer.
God chooses, men choose.
God elects, men elect.
God reveals his will, men reveal their will.
God has an order, men have an order.
God reveals his way, men reveal their way.
God can be with men, men can be with God.
God can be in a man, a man can be in God.
God can Accept, men can reject.
God can Reject, men can reject.
God can Agree, men can agree.
God can Disagree, men can disagree.
God can Work, men can work.
God can Authorize, men can authorize.
God can Bless, men can bless.
God can be Angry, men can be angry.
On and on and on...

Gen 1
[26] And God said, Let us make man... after our likeness:

So IS "your likeness"...LIKE God?
If so...WHY?
If not...WHY?


1 Thes 1:
[4] ... your election of God.

Did you NOT elect God?

 

[marks]

Regarding this people, our natural thinking tells us that those whom He chooses are those whom He knows are righteous, have good intentions, does good works, etc. Perhaps we are right. But that remains just to be only what we think.

All natural reason aside, I like to just go to the Bible. What I've learned is that we are all equally completely ruined by sin. There are none who have good intentions, not in the way God figures.

And that is the point, that God saves and is the One saving, and that salvation is of God and God’s work, and is not in any way shape or form, of man and the work of man.

I agree. Only, I've also come to conclude that God has sovereignly decreeded what cannot be overturned, that man must make a choice either for or against Him, and that choice will not be made for Him by God.

I'm going to try to find the MacArthur study. It really was good! If I do, I'll put up a link for you.

Much love!

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Before God spoke to Abram, did he have faith in God or he did not? Was he a believer and worshiper of God or a worshiper of gods?

For the first 75 years of Abrams life, I have no knowledge of:
IF Abram had knowledge of God,
IF Abram had faith in God,
IF Abram was a believer in God,
IF Abram was a worshiper of God,
IF Abram worshiped other gods

Well, one thing is sure he worshiped other gods, as even also his father worshiped other gods.

Tong2020 said: ↑
Now God spoke to Abram. How did Abram get to hear God’s voice?

Same WAY, any man can hear God's voice...
By and Through Oracles.

Well we read in scriptures that God appeared to Abram when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Haran.

Tong2020 said: ↑
How did Abram know that whose voice he hears is the voice of the true God? I am pretty sure you know that, only to those whom God enabled to hear His voice are those who will hear it.

John 5:
[37] ... the Father himself... Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

Yes I read that passage. What do you want to point out in reference to it in response to my post?

Do you not agree that only those whom God enabled to hear His voice are those who hears it?

Tong2020 said: ↑
Remember the conversion of Paul? That could only point to a supernatural miraculous act of God in and on Abram. And that is the giving of faith by God to Abraham. For faith comes by hearing and hearing the word of God. Having been given faith, and God having worked in and on him, Abram freely and willfully believed and trusted God.

I have already said men have freewill.
Seems you have been arguing Against men having Free will...while claiming Abram had freewill.

What's your point?

Yes men have their own will. They are free to choose when there is one to make. That is not the issue.

My point was that, Abraham was not forced by God in any way with regards his believing and trusting Him. But that Abraham freely and willfully did. And that was because of God’s working in and on him. He had given him faith.

Tong
R3877