Matthew 28:19 – Trinity corrupted verse

[keithr]

The doctrine of the Trinity is encapsulated in Matthew 28:19, where Jesus instructs the apostles: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

And yet the original subject of this thread was to show that the Trinity text was added centuries after Matthew wrote his Gospel. It originally did not contain the words "baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit".

 

[Illuminator]

And yet the original subject of this thread was to show that the Trinity text was added centuries after Matthew wrote his Gospel. It originally did not contain the words "baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit".

That claim, even if it is true, does not rule out the beliefs of the whole Church.
From the OP:

"Fraternal Visitor, in The Christadelphian Monatshefte, 1924, page 148, states, "Codex B. (Vaticanus) would be the best of all existing MSS if it were completely preserved, less damaged, (less) corrected, more easily legible, and not altered by a later hand in more than two thousand places. Eusebius, therefore, is not without grounds for accusing the adherents of Athanasius and of the newly-arisen doctrine of the Trinity of falsifying the Bible more than once."
​

Christadelphianism (another made-in-America cult) denies the divinity of Christ, and misquotes Eusebius by omission, so your credibility is in the toilet from the start. Athanasius proved the whole Church had always been trinitarian, and that is why Arius lost out. The tradition of Arianism was non-existent.
Baptists at Nicea and other myths

“the first and only begotten of God which was before every creature and creation visible and invisible, the commander-in-chief of the rational and immortal host of heaven, the messenger of the great counsel, the executor of the Father's unspoken will, the creator, with the Father, of all things, the second cause of the universe after the Father, the true and only-begotten Son of God, the Lord and God and King of all created things, the one who has received dominion and power, with divinity itself, and with might and honor from the Father; as it is said in regard to him in the mystical passages of Scripture which speak of his divinity: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." [John 1:1] "All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made." [John 1:3]”​

― Eusebius of Caesarea, Eusebius of Caesarea: Ecclesiastical History

It should be noted that Eusebius is not a Church Father, but a historian.

ORIGEN (c. 185 - 254 A.D.) (not a Church Father)
TERTULLIAN (c. 155 - 250 A.D.) (not a Church Father)
NOVATIAN (c. 235 A.D.) (not a Church Father)
St. Ignatius of Antioch (c. 110 A.D.)
Aristides of Athens (c. 140 A.D.)
St. Justin the Martyr (c. 100 - 165 A.D.)
St. Melito of Sardes (c. 177 A.D.)
Athenagoras of Athens (c. 180 A.D.)
St. Theophilus of Antioch (c. 181 A.D.)
St. Irenaeus of Lyons (c. 140 - 202 A.D.)
St. Hippolytus of Rome (c. 200 A.D.)
St. Clement of Alexandria (c. 150 - 216 A.D.)
St. Cyprian of Carthage (c. 250 A.D.)

quotes are here. None of these men denied the Trinity.

 

[David in NJ]

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the Firstborn over All Creation. All things were created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.… Colossians 1:15-17

• Yes, after the Son became the Firstborn over All Creation.
• He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
• For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities.

Jesus was brought forth first. That is why he calls himself the Bright Morning star. (Revelation 16:22)


God is not the Firstborn of All Creation... God is Eternal.

Another Feminine Noun describing Jesus Christ.
Strong's Concordance
ktisis: creation (the act or the product)
Original Word: κτίσις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: ktisis
Phonetic Spelling: (ktis'-is)
Definition: creation (the act or the product)
Usage: (often of the founding of a city), (a) abstr: creation, (b) concr: creation, creature, institution; always of Divine work, (c) an institution, ordinance.
HELPS Word-studies

Cognate: 2937 ktísis – properly, creation (creature) which is founded from nothing (this is also the sense of this term from Homer on); creation out of nothing (Lat ex nihilo).

Jehovah produced me as the beginning of his way, The earliest of his achievements of long ago. I was installed From the start, from times earlier than the earth. I was brought forth, When there were no springs overflowing with water. Before the mountains were set in place, Before the hills, I was brought forth," (Proverbs 8:22-25)

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the Firstborn over All Creation.

This Scripture speaks of Christ's RESURRECTION and VICTORY over Death.

It DOES NOT say He was the Firstborn of Creation - it says OVER all creation.

The Lord Jesus Christ = Emmanuel = God(Jehovah) with Us = the Word was God = the Word became Flesh

 

[Wrangler]

You can keep repeating your first statement till your blue in the face, it won't make it any more true!

JOhn 1: 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

You do realize Jesus is not even mentioned in John 1:1, right?

And John told us his entire Gospel was to prove Jesus was not God incarnate but the Messiah. This means trinitarians who use 1:1 as evidence of their doctrine are going against St John.

 

[amigo de christo]

No, you are a liar for twisting Scripture and denying this = Genesis 1:1 and John 1:1, denying that Jesus is the Word and was God in the beginning
You deny Isaiah and the other prophets who declare that Jesus is Jehovah, thy Redeemer = the Redeemer of Israel.
And other such Scriptures you deny

Paul even showed them this . He quoates from genesis himself . To show HOW GOD has SHINED HIS LIGHT into our hearts .

 

[Wrangler]

Foolish wrangler - the I speaks of God being Echad (united ONE)

I see. “Our” image is obviously plural - and no possible other explanation is possible, even among the monotheist Hebrews from which it comes - but so is “I.”

Doesn’t the Bible condemn calling people fools? Or does that only apply to non-trinitarians?

 

[amigo de christo]

Brando, according to the question Jesus asked - "Why do you call Me good? There is NONE good, ONLY GOD.

Brando - The Holy Spirit is asking you, right now, Is Jesus good?

Can i please answer that question . YES HE IS GOOD .
JESUS was making a point to that man . HE was not saying HE was not GOOD .
HE was making a point .
LET THE GLORIOUS LORD BE PRAISED MY FRIEND .

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You do realize Jesus is not even mentioned in John 1:1, right?

And John told us his entire Gospel was to prove Jesus was not God incarnate but the Messiah. This means trinitarians who use 1:1 as evidence of their doctrine are going against St John.

Andf by proving Jesus was Messiah He also proved He was a sdivine as His Father..

so are ytou also saying that because Jesus wasn't absolutely declared to be human, John didn't assume He was a man???

 

[David in NJ]

You do realize Jesus is not even mentioned in John 1:1, right?

And John told us his entire Gospel was to prove Jesus was not God incarnate but the Messiah. This means trinitarians who use 1:1 as evidence of their doctrine are going against St John.

NO - You are the one who cannot see because you CHOOSE to not see.

The Word was God....and The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us. We have seen His Glory, the Glory of the One and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

He made His dwelling among us = Emmanuel = God with us

 

[marks]

You do realize Jesus is not even mentioned in John 1:1, right?

And John told us his entire Gospel was to prove Jesus was not God incarnate but the Messiah. This means trinitarians who use 1:1 as evidence of their doctrine are going against St John.

Interesting argument!

The Word was with God. The Word became flesh. Who became flesh? Was it Jesus? When was He called Jesus? It was after He was born. What was He called before that?

Presenting Jesus as Messiah is not exclusive from presenting Jesus as God, and in fact, John contains a number of strong evidences of Jesus deity. As has been often pointed out, the Jews knew what He was saying. The several times wanted to kill Him for "making Himself, a man to be God."

Much love!

 

[amigo de christo]

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the Firstborn over All Creation.

This Scripture speaks of Christ's RESURRECTION and VICTORY over Death.

It DOES NOT say He was the Firstborn of Creation - it says OVER all creation.

The Lord Jesus Christ = Emmanuel = God(Jehovah) with Us = the Word was God = the Word became Flesh

Let me give us a parable .
There was a man once who taught a class .
One day while on the beach he gathered into a bucket water from the ocean .
He then goes to his class and says , Alas my students i have brought you the ocean .
And the children laughed him to scorn and mockery .
He says , alas why did you laugh .
And the children said , that is not the ocean , its just water from the ocean in a bucket .
TO which the man says , let us go to the ocean my children .
SO they leave off and arrive at the ocean .
He tells the class . IS THAT the ocean you see .
And they happily and cheerfully said yes .
HE then takes the bucket and dumps that same water back into the ocean FROM WHENCE IT HAD COME ,
and then says , OKAY what is that water now . and the children said , WELL its the ocean .
And the man said , IT always was the ocean . FOR OF THE OCEAN IT CAME and BACK UNTO THE OCEAN IT HAS GONE .

 

[David in NJ]

Paul even showed them this . He quoates from genesis himself . To show HOW GOD has SHINED HIS LIGHT into our hearts .

AWESOME Word my Brother - We eat it up and because we do WE LIVE.......

without the Shining LIGHT of God that has shined into our hearts through Christ i would be a dead man.

For we do not proclaim ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake. For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” made His light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

 

[amigo de christo]

AWESOME Word my Brother - We eat it up and because we do WE LIVE.......

without the Shining LIGHT of God that has shined into our hearts through Christ i would be a dead man.

For we do not proclaim ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake. For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” made His light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Yes indeed my friend .

 

[David in NJ]

I see. “Our” image is obviously plural - and no possible other explanation is possible, even among the monotheist Hebrews from which it comes - but so is “I.”

Doesn’t the Bible condemn calling people fools? Or does that only apply to non-trinitarians?

I did not call you a fool - I said foolish - Here is the difference, sometimes i act foolish and say foolish things - that in of itself does not make me or you a fool.

What does make someone a fool is this:

The fool says in his heart,

“There is no God.”

They are corrupt; their ways are vile.

There is no one who does good. God looks down from heaven

upon the sons of men

to see if any understand,

if any seek God. All have turned away,

they have together become corrupt;

there is no one who does good,

not even one.

Jesus is still asking you wrangler: "Why do you call ME good? There is none good but One, GOD."

 

[amigo de christo]

I did not call you a fool - I said foolish - Here is the difference, sometimes i act foolish and say foolish things - that in of itself does not make me or you a fool.

What does make someone a fool is this:

The fool says in his heart,

“There is no God.”

They are corrupt; their ways are vile.

There is no one who does good. God looks down from heaven

upon the sons of men

to see if any understand,

if any seek God. All have turned away,

they have together become corrupt;

there is no one who does good,

not even one.

Jesus is still asking you wrangler: "Why do you call ME good? There is none good but, One, GOD."

WHY that last sentence is a big revelation itself . NO ONE , Absolutely no ONE is GOOD BUT GOD .
YET JESUS WAS GOOD . Whiff the air my friends .
Its no wonder that when thomas saw him alive , he fell to his knees and said , MY LORD AND MY GOD .
AND i dont seem to remember JESUS saying , HEY GET UP THOMAS , I MYSELF AM JUST A MAN AS YOU ARE .
Exactly . Exactly .
Even the angel told JOHN get up and worship GOD only .
YET JESUS NEVER CORRECTED THOMAS . ANY GUESSES WHY THAT IS ..................
i bet ya know my friend . I bet you already know the answer .

 

[David in NJ]

WHY that last sentence is a big revelation itself . NO ONE , Absolutely no ONE is GOOD BUT GOD .
YET JESUS WAS GOOD . Whiff the air my friends .
Its no wonder that when thomas saw him alive , he fell to his knees and said , MY LORD AND MY GOD .
AND i dont seem to remember JESUS saying , HEY GET UP THOMAS , I MYSELF AM JUST A MAN AS YOU ARE .
Exactly . Exactly .
Even the angel told JOHN get up and worship GOD only .
YET JESUS NEVER CORRECTED THOMAS . ANY GUESSES WHY THAT IS ..................
i bet ya know my friend . I bet you already know the answer .

Now after reading this i am laughing in JOY of the Holy Spirit - not laughing at you but with you for such great joy as this........

 

[Marymog]

No. You may not be playing my game but you are playing a game.

You asked a 2 part question. Just because I did not originally use the words “clarify the scope of your question” does not mean that is what I'm saying is a pre-requisite for me to answer your question(s).

Make a blessed day.

Thank you.

 

[Marymog]

Unitarianism pre-dates trinitarianism by millennia. Unitarianism or monotheism is what everyone who wrote the Bible believed. This explains why the trinity - the word and the doctrine - is not in Scripture. This explains why all the Epistles differentiate God (who alone is the Father) from Jesus and does not even mention the Holy Spirit.

Trinitarianism did not begin until the 4th century. From today's devotional reading.


Grace to you and shalom from God our Father and the Lord Yeshua the Messiah.
1 Corinthians 1:3 Complete Jewish Bible

Who was Jesus talking about in John 14:26 and 15:26 (among other verses)?

 

[Marymog]

As soon as men made it up the Trinity! There was opposition to it for a long time.

If there was opposition to it for a long time then who or what is the Spirit spoken of in the NT? The Spirit that descended upon Jesus when he was baptized, the Spirit spoken of in John 14:26 and 15:26 etc is God his father?

Mary

 

[Marymog]

That's for you to decide, by doing your own Bible study.

In Acts 17 (MKJV):

10) And the brothers immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea. They, when they arrived, went into the synagogue of the Jews.
11) And these were more noble than those of Thessalonica, in that they received the Word with all readiness of mind and searched the Scriptures daily to see if those things were so.
12) Therefore many of them believed, and quite a few of honorable Greek women and men.​

I don't think that means that just the leaders in the synagogue searched the Scriptures (although not everyone had their own personal copies like we do today), but I would guess that groups of people (men!) searched together.

Really? Every Christian gets to decide what their truth is? Where is that in Scripture? (Hint, it’s not)