Man is totally unable to choose spiritual life (salvation) on his own

[John Zain]

Man is totally unable to choose spiritual life (salvation) on his own
because he is …

[please take a deep breath after each group of points}

-- a spiritual idiot … consider history, and the current glut of religions, cults, sects, etc.

-- born with an inherited sin nature … many verses
-- spiritually dead in his sins … Ephesians 2:1-5, Colossians 2:13
-- a captive to the law of sin and death … Romans 8:2
-- a slave to sin, forced to obey evil … John 8:34, Romans 6:17-21, Titus 3:3
-- an enemy of God, hostile to God, opposed to God … Romans 8:7

-- spiritually blind and deaf … Matthew 13:13-15, John 9:39, John 12:39-40, Ephesians 4:18
-- unable to understand the things of God (they are foolishness) … 1 Corinthians 2:14
-- seeing the gospel as utter foolishness … 1 Corinthians 1:18
-- unable to believe the truth of the gospel because it is veiled … 2 Corinthians 4:3

-- blinded by Satan … Acts 26:18, 2 Corinthians 4:3-4
-- controlled (ruled) by Satan … John 12:31, 1 John 5:19, Acts 26:18, 2 Cor 10:4-5, Ephesians 2:2
-- deceived by Satan … Revelation 12:9, John 8:44, 2 Corinthians 11:14
-- a captive of Satan unto death … Hebrews 2:14-15, Luke 4:18

-- unable to be righteous by doing good works … Isaiah 64:6, Galatians 2:16, Titus 3:5
-- unable to be saved by his own desire or works … Romans 9:16, Ephesians 2:8-9
-- able to be saved only by the grace and mercy of God … Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:4-7

To the Armenianists here, what do you think about the above?

 

[biggandyy]

It would be more persuasive if you removed the ad hominem and appeal to history fallacy of the first "group".

 

[afaithfulone4u]

I totally disagree,
God gave us a free will to choose our way in life, either with Him or try to make it without Him as a wanderer like Cain. In the fullness of time God sent us His Son to preach the Good News of the kingdom of God being at hand, looking for recruits (spiritual soldier's for Christ) who are to replenish the kingdom at the end of the age once the devil and his angels are thrown out!
He went about seeking those who are tired of their lives of misery, disease and poverty because of the sin inherited by the first Adam in their life which leads to death, who are ready to repent of being their own god all this time doing good and evil and realizing it is time to accept things God's way, for the prodigal son to come home where things were good before the fall of man. We always want to believe that the fact that Jesus died for us was the Good News of the Gospel...While it is good news to us.... However, Jesus taught the Gospel of the kingdom of God and he never mentioned his soon to be death to anyone for that was between him and the Father to know who Jesus was and that God was going to suffer His Word to be forsaken on the cross to make a way to redeem man by his self sacrifice to make a pleasing atonement to the Father so that we could once again receive God's Spirit to clean us up, groom us for the kingdom.

We CAN NOT clean our own selves up that is impossible without the help of the Word & Spirit you are doomed. That is why we can not keep the law for we don't understand how nor have the power to overcome in our fallen nature. Only by the blood/Spirit and receiving the Word to be written in our hearts can we be saved! God is the one who looks at the heart to turn them to Christ, but God does not make us have a heart for Him. That we must choose. If we have an inkling of love for God He can open it up and turn on the Light but never will He make us love Him.

Mark 1:14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
KJV
Mark 16:15-18
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18.They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
KJV
Luke 4:18-21
18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.
KJV

 

[SilenceInMotion]

There exists an inescapable truth called 'invincible ignorance'. It entails that a oerson cannot force themselves to believe something. God does in fact choose the person, because your free will cannot save the soul it commandeers if it cannot be convinced.

That is why 'faith alone' is a theological failure, originally introduced to sock other religious people, mainly the Jews. Heaven and Hell are based upon the good and the wicked, not belief or disbelief. That simply renders Christianity asinine.

People are capable of good works, and so they cannot by definition be totally depraved or without Spirit. To say otherwise renders the Spirit vain. On so many levels, I see those outside the Church consistently contradict each other.

 

[afaithfulone4u]

There exists an inescapable truth called 'invincible ignorance'. It entails that a oerson cannot force themselves to believe something. God does in fact choose the person, because your free will cannot save the soul it commandeers if it cannot be convinced.

That is why 'faith alone' is a theological failure, originally introduced to sock other religious people, mainly the Jews. Heaven and Hell are based upon the good and the wicked, not belief or disbelief. That simply renders Christianity asinine.

People are capable of good works, and so they cannot by definition be totally depraved or without Spirit. To say otherwise renders the Spirit vain. On so many levels, I see those outside the Church consistently contradict each other.

If this is true, then Jesus is a liar because he makes it plain that if you believe you will be saved, but if you don't believe, you will be damned.
Plainly tells us it is up to us. In fact he also tells the disciples when he sent them out, that if they would not believe, you are to dust your feet as a testament against them, meaning they were given the choice to choose or not to choose.

Mark 16:15-18
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18.They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover

Matt 10:12
12 And when ye come into an house, salute it.
13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.
14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
KJV

Luke 10:1-16
10:1 After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.
2 Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest.
3 Go your ways: behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves.
4 Carry neither purse, nor scrip, nor shoes: and salute no man by the way.
5 And into whatsoever house ye enter, first say, Peace be to this house.
6 And if the son of peace be there, your peace shall rest upon it: if not, it shall turn to you again.
7 And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house.
8 And into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you:
9 And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.
10 But into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you not, go your ways out into the streets of the same, and say,
11 Even the very dust of your city, which cleaveth on us, we do wipe off against you: notwithstanding be ye sure of this, that the kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.
12 But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.
13 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.
14 But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment, than for you.
15 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.
16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.
KJV

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

Does it lie within the province of man’s will to accept or reject the Lord Jesus as Saviour?

Granted that the Gospel is preached to the sinner, that the Holy Spirit convicts him of his lost condition, does it, in the final analysis, lie within the power of his own will to resist or yield himself up to God? The answer to this question defines our conception of human depravity. That man is a fallen creature all professing Christians will allow, but what many of them mean by "fallen" is often difficult to determine. The general impression seems to be that man is now mortal, that he is no longer in the condition in which he left the hands of his Creator, that he is liable to disease, that he inherits evil tendencies; but, that if he employs his powers to the best of his ability, somehow he will be happy at last.

O, how far short of the sad truth! Infirmities, sickness, even corporeal death, are but trifles in comparison with the moral and spiritual effects of the Fall! It is only by consulting the Holy Scriptures that we are able to obtain some conception of the extent of that terrible calamity.

When we say that man is totally depraved, we mean that the entrance of sin into the human constitution has affected every part and faculty of man’s being. Total depravity means that man is, in spirit and soul and body, the slave of sin and the captive of the Devil—walking "according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience" (Eph. 2:2). This statement ought not to need arguing: it is a common fact of human experience.

Man is unable to realize his own aspirations and materialize his own ideals. He cannot do the things that he would. There is moral inability which paralyzes him.

This is proof positive that he is no free man, but instead, the slave of sin and Satan. "Ye are of your father the Devil, and the lusts (desires) of your father ye will do." (John 8:44).

Sin is more than an act or a series of acts; it is a man’s make-up. It has blinded the understanding, corrupted the heart, and alienated the mind from God. And the will has not escaped. The will is under the dominion of sin and Satan.

Therefore, the will is not free. In short, the affections love as they do and the will chooses as it does because of the state of the heart, and because the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked "There is none that seeketh after God" (Rom. 3:11).AWP

 

[Rex]

1 Kings 18
21 And Elijah came to all the people, and said, “How long will you falter between two opinions? If the Lord is God, follow Him; but if Baal, follow him.” But the people answered him not a word. ----->Because they were all Calvinist and only God can choose for them.

 

[afaithfulone4u]

God is Sovereign over the whole earth, and will use whosoever He will for His purposes according to the intensions of their heart. However, He will never make a moral person be immoral, or one who refuses to kill, to kill. Nor will He make one who is evil be a righteous person or vice versa. He does search the heart of men and uses all of His creation for His purposes. It is within each of us to make good or evil choices and it is up to each of us to choose Christ or not.
We do not in our own ability have the power to save our own self or to become PERFECT as He is perfect. This is due to our parents Adam and Eve partaking of the tree of the knowledge to learn good and evil ways(the serpent who was the tree envied in the garden of Eden) ......Some are mostly good and some are mostly bad, but none worthy as we have become as filthy rags before the Spirit of Life became available to indwells us and nourish us with the Bread of Life(The Word) to restore and redeem man for who so ever WILL!
Sure, we are captive to sin by choice otherwise God would not say this:
Deut 30:19-20
19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.
KJV
But since we have evidence of one making a CHOICE in life without having the Spirit of God, to loose weight or to become honest or any other choices we face in life then you can not say we don't have free will. We are weak willed... that is the problem.
Matt 26:41
41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.
KJV
Right here below, we can see that God tells Cain that if he raises his standards won't he be accepted? Showing that it is OUR choice to choose good or evil as our path.
Gen 4:6-7
6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
KJV

 

[williemac]

God is Sovereign over the whole earth, and will use whosoever He will for His purposes according to the intensions of their heart. However, He will never make a moral person be immoral, or one who refuses to kill, to kill. Nor will He make one who is evil be a righteous person or vice versa. He does search the heart of men and uses all of His creation for His purposes. It is within each of us to make good or evil choices and it is up to each of us to choose Christ or not.
We do not in our own ability have the power to save our own self or to become PERFECT as He is perfect. This is due to our parents Adam and Eve partaking of the tree of the knowledge to learn good and evil ways(the serpent who was the tree envied in the garden of Eden) ......Some are mostly good and some are mostly bad, but none worthy as we have become as filthy rags before the Spirit of Life became available to indwells us and nourish us with the Bread of Life(The Word) to restore and redeem man for who so ever WILL!
Sure, we are captive to sin by choice otherwise God would not say this:
Deut 30:19-20
19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.
KJV
But since we have evidence of one making a CHOICE in life without having the Spirit of God, to loose weight or to become honest or any other choices we face in life then you can not say we don't have free will. We are weak willed... that is the problem.
Matt 26:41
41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.
KJV
Right here below, we can see that God tells Cain that if he raises his standards won't he be accepted? Showing that it is OUR choice to choose good or evil as our path.
Gen 4:6-7
6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
KJV

How do you explain 2Cor.5:19,20?

 

[Rex]

Now that your posting bible verses John maybe you can include both sides of the story
This is exactly why I refuse to join myself TO ANY CHURCH

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mcxQk8V85o

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

1 Kings 18
21 And Elijah came to all the people, and said, “How long will you falter between two opinions? If the Lord is God, follow Him; but if Baal, follow him.” But the people answered him not a word. ----->Because they were all Calvinist and only God can choose for them.

1 Kings 18
21 And Elijah came to all the people, and said, “How long will you falter between two opinions? If the Lord is God, follow Him; but if Baal, follow him.” But the people answered him not a word. ----->Because they were all Calvinist and only God can choose for them.

LOL! :)

 

[williemac]

Now that your posting bible verses John maybe you can include both sides of the story
This is exactly why I refuse to join myself TO ANY CHURCH

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mcxQk8V85o

I'm not sure what you mean by this. I think that cartoon is funny, but not accurate. Not a good representative of the debate. However, If you have joined yourself to Christ, then maybe you might want to think about checking out His direction for you rather than assume you can decide better than He about assembling yourself with others who are your brothers and sisters in Him. The most important part of our life in Christ is fellowship. Being right is not the goal nor is it the hat we should be wearing. We do not own the truth. Taking ownership is the pathway to self exaltation. Not a good place to be. This is not meant to assume anything about you, since I don't know you...just saying....

 

[Rex]

I'm not sure what you mean by this. I think that cartoon is funny, but not accurate. Not a good representative of the debate. However, If you have joined yourself to Christ, then maybe you might want to think about checking out His direction for you rather than assume you can decide better than He about assembling yourself with others who are your brothers and sisters in Him. The most important part of our life in Christ is fellowship. Being right is not the goal nor is it the hat we should be wearing. We do not own the truth. Taking ownership is the pathway to self exaltation. Not a good place to be. This is not meant to assume anything about you, since I don't know you...just saying....

I have no Idea what point your making yourself.
It's clear the subject of the video went over your head, the point of the video is both Arminianist and Calvinist ignore parts of scripture, depicted by tearing pages out out of the bible then agreeing with each other they know what their talking about.

By the way take this grip to the OP he's very good at starting controversy and never commenting.

Being right is not the goal nor is it the hat we should be wearing

I am merely making a point that nether Arminianist or Calvinist have a complete picture, I would recommend a sermon from Spurgeon but someone like yourself with years of experience in the ministry and bible study leadership has probably already heard his final comment on the topic. Hopefully you can understand the meaning of the post I made, when you, do we can have a real conversation,

 

[Axehead]

Deut_30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Let's break this down:

1. God set before Israel two choices:
a. Life, blessing
b. Death, cursing

Then He told them that it would be better to choose life that they would live.

What God DID NOT say:

1. I (the Lord God) choose life for you, because you are incapable of making a choice when I place two choices before you and tell you what the result will be if you choose one or the other.

Whew!! I'm glad that's taken care of.

Now, take a black magic marker and cross out the words "choose" and "choice" from your Bible. You don't need them because you don't believe God is serious when He counsels you to CHOOSE.

This is bread.

This is dung.

Do you have to be told which one to choose to fill your stomach?

Yes, like Rex implies there is a place for both. A balance if you will. Some truth to Calvinism and some to Arminianism.

We need the bread and we need the dung.

Axehead

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

Deut_30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Let's break this down:

1. God set before Israel two choices:
a. Life, blessing
b. Death, cursing

Then He told them that it would be better to choose life that they would live.

What God DID NOT say:

1. I (the Lord God) choose life for you, because you are incapable of making a choice when I place two choices before you and tell you what the result will be if you choose one or the other.

Whew!! I'm glad that's taken care of.

Now, take a black magic marker and cross out the words "choose" and "choice" from your Bible. You don't need them because you don't believe God is serious when He counsels you to CHOOSE.

This is bread.

This is dung.

Do you have to be told which one to choose to fill your stomach?

Axehead

Deut_30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Let's break this down:

1. God set before Israel two choices:
a. Life, blessing
b. Death, cursing

Then He told them that it would be better to choose life that they would live.

What God DID NOT say:

1. I (the Lord God) choose life for you, because you are incapable of making a choice when I place two choices before you and tell you what the result will be if you choose one or the other.

Whew!! I'm glad that's taken care of.

Now, take a black magic marker and cross out the words "choose" and "choice" from your Bible. You don't need them because you don't believe God is serious when He counsels you to CHOOSE.

This is bread.

This is dung.

Do you have to be told which one to choose to fill your stomach?

Axehead

LOL! In the case of God verses NO God, we at least have to be steered in the right direction and assisted in the process. This is what God has exactly done. Or as your illustration indicates we may end up feasting on dung instead of the manna from heaven.

We certainly don't want to be mushrooms. Kept in the dark and feed on ... . Jesus in-fact removed the blinkers from our eyes.

 

[Axehead]

LOL! In the case of God verses NO God, we at least have to be steered in the right direction and assisted in the process. This is what God has exactly done. Or as your illustration indicates we may end up feasting on dung instead of the manna from heaven.

We certainly don't want to be mushrooms. Kept in the dark and feed on ... . Jesus in-fact removed the blinkers from our eyes.

Amen, JB. And I don't doubt that when the Holy Spirit is drawing us toward salvation, that at that moment He is also providing grace for us to latch onto and escape the Kingdom of Darkness. It's like we are jumping from a cliff over a chasm to the cliff on the other side and the Lord is saying "jump, I've got you". It has been my experience when we give the Lord a little bit (of faith) He gives so much more back in return. That is part of how He encourages us to take bigger "steps" in our walk with Him. From faith to faith we go, but we have to take that first step (each time) into the victory that is waiting for us.

 

[John Zain]

By the way take this grip to the OP he's very good at starting controversy and never commenting.

From da expert starter and non-finisher ... Here's somethin' quick to contemplate ...

election ... God chooses some people from all tribes, all ethnic groups, all nations, etc.
free-will ... man chooses whether or not to accept God's revelation of Truth, i.e. His free gift of grace-faith.
more free-will ... man chooses whether or not to co-operate with the Holy Spirit in his necessary sanctification process.

That's all right now from Star #830273485 ...

 

[Rex]

From da expert starter and non-finisher ... Here's somethin' quick to contemplate ...

election ... God chooses some people from all tribes, all ethnic groups, all nations, etc.
free-will ... man chooses whether or not to accept God's revelation of Truth, i.e. His free gift of grace-faith.
more free-will ... man chooses whether or not to co-operate with the Holy Spirit in his necessary sanctification process.

That's all right now from Star #830273485 ...

Ya-ya Captain John Star #830273485
That's bit different direction than your OP don't you think? {Man is totally unable to choose spiritual life (salvation) on his own}
We'll be awaiting for your call back from going where no man has gone before.

election ... God chooses some people from all tribes, all ethnic groups, all nations, etc.

Where do you shoe horn 2 Peter 3:9 into your election? Or is that page torn from your bible? Maybe you haven't torn out 1 Tim 2:4-6

This is star base to Captain John Star #830273485 can you read me?

 

[John Zain]

Where do you shoe horn 2 Peter 3:9 into your election? Or is that page torn from your bible? Maybe you haven't torn out 1 Tim 2:4-6

Truly, I thought I'd given up responding to you.
Da idea iz ... your "all"s really mean what I said about da "all"s.

 

[Rex]

Truly, I thought I'd given up responding to you.
Da idea iz ... your "all"s really mean what I said about da "all"s.

Captain your breaking up, The Romulans in your area may be jamming your tricorder transmission. Or deep space has warped your reply, I repeat

Where do you shoe horn 2 peter 3:9 into your election? Or is that page torn from your bible? Maybe you haven't torn out 1 Tim 2:4-6

This is star base to Captain John Star #830273485 please switch over to star fleet channel 1subspace communications and try again?

That's all right now