Magical Thinking

[Enoch111]

But when Rapture--a future mass rapture i mean, not the real one that anyone might experience today--has become a must-happen event is when you really have a problem, ok, or i could even rephrase it to don't get too married to beliefs that seem to divide ppl roughly 50/50, and be extra-suspicious of beliefs that everyone holds in common

What is "the real one" as opposed to the real one? There will be only one Rapture -- the real one -- whether you believe it or not.

BTW circumlocution does no one any good. If you have something to say, say it plainly such as "I do not believe in the Rapture and I never will".

Fine, there are millions of unbelievers in this world. They will not believe even though one rose from the dead.

 

[Taken]

yet this is exactly what most believers wish to believe, the very people who are also the worst at statistical inference, being written to by masters in psychology, basically, being led by God.

Uh...wait a minute.

You say, most believers "wish" to believe Gods works are miracles, not magical (trickery).....

BUT instead these SAME PEOPLE WILL be influenced and "trust" "stats" ?

And you preference the "stats" are complied by "men of God who have masters in psychology"?

Personally, I do not KNOW "IF" MOST believers "consider" "stats".

Secondly, already KNOW HOW "stats" are made.

You yourself believe a magical occurrence will whisk you--ah, sorry, "you all" right--away from the earth

Exactly HOW did YOU Decide, I believe the Lords Redeeming of a mans Body, is "magical"?

I have said no such thing.
To be clear, I believe the Lords Redeeming of a mans Body IS EXPRESSLY accomplished BY HIS POWER.
And I expressly believe HIS POWER is Christ.
And I expressly believe HIS POWER is Spirit.
And I expressly believe HIS POWER is Miraculous.

I have NOT, in any inference whatsoever said or implied that the Lords Power or works are "magic" or "magical".

So, please do not presume or make that claim for me.

at...ah, i forget the rhetoric, sorry, not quite sure when, some opportune moment, before some common tragedy that you have been convinced is "great tribulation" befalls everyone else, correct?

What I believe is ... Tribulation is: hard times, suffering, sorrow, hardships, etc.

I believe EVERY man suffers hard times, sorrow, hardships.

And I believe what is a hardship for man NOW, pales compared to what Shall come to pass, during Gods Wrath upon the Earth (for a Second Time).

You may believe a man Sealed unto God...
Shall remain on earth and suffer through the earths tribulation.....or not.

You may believe a man Sealed unto God...
Shall (like in Noah's day), be raised up above the distruction upon the earth....or not.

i am clear in what and the depths of what I believe and why.....and it has ZERO to do with MAGIC.

and i have no desire to argue the point here, ok, i believed we were all going somewhere most of my life still, and that we were "all" pull together as a team, however you might like to phrase it, and i encourage you to believe that as long as you like, ok, it doesn't matter, i have beliefs too, and i'm sure mine will be disabused too. Bam have beliefs if you like, nothing wrong with having theories. We are even told to form opinions and test them to see if they are true

Agree, no need to argue.
You can believe as you wish, and so can I.

I trust what scripture says, and use that as my source for WHAT I believe....and I am fully dependent on God for His Understanding of His Word, which I fully trust both.

But when Rapture--a future mass rapture i mean,

First of all I believe the Rapture IS a QUICK ACTION of the Lord....of Him Redeeming/ Taking unto Him What was Given Him TO Take.

God called me...I answered.
My answer was To Give the whole of my Life...Body, Soul, Spirit To Christ the Lord Jesus.

I Belong To Christ Jesus. He has revealed He Shall come To Redeem (collect, take, claim) me...on a day, unbeknownst to me.

I am informed it Shall HAPPEN Quickly.
I am informed Only those who Belong To Christ Jesus Shall Be "Raptured" in THAT One MASS Taking.
In short, Jesus Is Collecting His Church To Go Meet Him...and for the First Time...See Him as He IS, in His Spiritual Image and Likeness.

So not sure what you mean by "Mass", but it is a specific group of people, His Church, who are all together making a Mass Exit from the face of the earth.

not the real one that anyone might experience today--has become a must-happen event is when you really have a problem, ok, or i could even rephrase it to don't get too married to beliefs that seem to divide ppl roughly 50/50, and be extra-suspicious of beliefs that everyone holds in common :)

That is in direct contrast to what you just said...

You can believe what you will
I can believe what I will
No need to argue....
"BUT."...what I believe is "a big problem"?

Why?

Seems to me, being Above the Face of the Earth Will Be a Good Place To Be....when the Wrath of God Is upon the Earth and those People left upon the Earth will be subject to the consequences of Gods Wrath upon the Earth.

Have you Forgotten ( or maybe do not believe ?)
Gods Wrath upon the Earth has been kindled Before...
And only 8 people were RISEN UP off the Earth upon the Face of the Waters, which such waters ON the Earth destroyed every living thing upon the Earth.

Why do you think 8 were RISEN UP and Saved....from Gods Wrath upon the Earth?

But that those SEALED unto Christ will not be RISEN UP and Saved....from Gods Wrath upon the Earth ?

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Has your belief system led you to visions of miraculous events that must occur in the near future that infer rewards in an afterlife for good deeds done today in order for your faith to even have any meaning? If it doesn't work out like you planned, and the miracles don't occur in the way you currently understand, what will that do to your faith? Are you a victim of magical thinking?

I scanned the article. It isn't written from a Christian point-of-view at all.

There's a big difference between wishful or "magical" thinking and having faith in God's promises. Of course, being a non-Christian article, the author wouldn't be able to make this distinction.

Even with God's promises, I'm finding that I have to be careful. Sometimes, He makes a promise, and I take the ball and run with it. IOW, I decide how and when He has to fulfill the promise (kind of like Sarah with God's promise of a son). This has been very damaging to my faith at times. I've had to learn not to "birth any Ishmeals" like Abraham and Sarah did.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

the gist is that believers do worse at statistical inference than most other people, which i know "statistical inference" is like "so what?" but this is another thing like "Hegelian dialectic" that we are all intimately familiar with, you prolly use statistical inference 50 times a day. i can't even imagine what Enoch's objections are about; my guess is he didn't understand the point or something, but a strange thing about this particular point is it's like Nehushtan worship kinda, maybe he understood it only too well

I can't speak for Enoch, but the website appears to be very left-leaning politically.

 

[Naomi25]

Has your belief system led you to visions of miraculous events that must occur in the near future that infer rewards in an afterlife for good deeds done today in order for your faith to even have any meaning? If it doesn't work out like you planned, and the miracles don't occur in the way you currently understand, what will that do to your faith? Are you a victim of magical thinking?

Here's How the Human Mind Is Wired For Magical Thinking

No. Regardless of what you repeatedly try and represent people here of doing, those of us who believe in 'the great there after', for want of a better term, do so based solely on scriptural text, rather than mankind's 'apparent' ability to seek and see 'magical' elements in life.

Proof? You ask for. Text? You demand! Oh, the many that has been provided, and how clear and obvious it has been...for most, apparently. For you...you dismiss the texts that have been provided, make some strangle little comment, then tell us that we're 'missing the point', avoiding the topic nicely with your circuitous 'logic'.

Plus, I wonder if you realize you've just essentially accused everyone who believes in an End Times doctrine, whatever it may be, to be a believer in "magic". You've tried to smuggle it in under 'miraculous', but if you in any way agree with your article, then not only do you see us as delusional, but also as blasphemous.

Nice.

 

[bbyrd009]

Uh...wait a minute.

You say, most believers "wish" to believe Gods works are miracles, not magical (trickery).....

BUT instead these SAME PEOPLE WILL be influenced and "trust" "stats" ?

And you preference the "stats" are complied by "men of God who have masters in psychology"?

Personally, I do not KNOW "IF" MOST believers "consider" "stats".

Secondly, already KNOW HOW "stats" are made.

this is just a small example, and there are no literal statistics being generated in the casual "statistical analysis" that ppl do every day which is being referred to. In fact the "statistics" being generated are faulty, bc we are talking about the casual observance of phenomena that leads to a conclusion; "parents believe there will be a rapture, uncle bob believes there will be, therefore there will be" like that

 

[bbyrd009]

Exactly HOW did YOU Decide, I believe the Lords Redeeming of a mans Body, is "magical"?

i'm just stating your beliefs from another perspective ok, not trying to insult you, but see how you are carefully choosing your words already to avoid a truth that is becoming more apparent as you change your mind; now the rapture is "the redeeming of a man's body" instead of a mass exodus. And i have no desire to judge either/any beliefs ok, the point is to see how we deceive ourselves, and to understand one mechanism for this.

Statistical analysis is like hegelian dialectic ok, you do it all day long, you maybe just aren't so fam with it in those terms
so pls don't let the terms put you off

i am clear in what and the depths of what I believe and why.....and it has ZERO to do with MAGIC.

thousands of believers all rising naked into the sky at the same time would be pretty awesome lol, def something new under the sun i guess. It would be a magic trick to most of the planet, and see that your biased opinion does not even matter right this second ok, and we do not think any less of you for believing in rapture either, at least i don't. santa had zero to do with magic too, ok, you figured that out, you'll figure this out too. You do not have to believe like me, not even a little, not ever

 

[bbyrd009]

So, please do not presume or make that claim for me.

ah, i am doing neither of these, but i am proving that that is likely true instead, for the simple reason that many who are also deceived in the same way want to know how to get undeceived, ok, so if you see anywhere i am presuming or making any claims that i can't back up bam point them out, but understand that if you do not grasp what "Statistical Inference" is on a personal level you are going to end up like Enoch, fighting at the air and unable to even state your objection clearly.

Believers as a group happen to be bad at statistical inference, it's not a crime ok.
There are even little tests you can take to see, i'm terrible at it myself, doesn't appear to be improving either, so what.
the point is that now i know what to look for, and i know a new way to avoid making a certain kind of assumption in my reasoning processes, which we have to make like a million assumptions a day, and also i know not to be too sure when i do have to rely on a certain sort of daily statistical inference, which is after all the whole point of the article, "don't be so sure."

 

[bbyrd009]

which let's be honest that is really the whole objection here, most Christians are sure that if they believe something hard enough it will come true, which the Bible is doing to us on purpose bc we all want to be Immortal gods and no one really wants to die in ignominy following Christ

 

[bbyrd009]

What is "the real one" as opposed to the real one?

Bible Search: rapture

There will be only one Rapture -- the real one -- whether you believe it or not.

see that there is just as likely to be no Rapture capital r such as you now hold to be an Absolute Truth, which is the point, not whether there will ever actually be a physical rapture or not

 

[bbyrd009]

Nice.

all are deceived, Naomi, and no i'm not even trying to dispute the point, as you say
this just happens to be a good way for one to undeceive themselves in one certain way
that effectively becomes just a quick little check; "do i have all the facts here? Is it possible my inference on the statistics i do have is faulty? yes/no" ok then, i better not be holding this as an Absolute Truth like i am wont to do with my beliefs in general at least until i get some more stats to infer from."

so tbh i'm not even sure what your objection is, yes, i take it as a given that your beliefs are whacked and irrelevant just like mine, approximations, and just like Scripture says, and i am not trying to make you believe like i do even a little, i don't care what you believe. i am much more interested in manifesting a stronger faith, and if you feel that like denying that you make statistical inferences, or that you make them poorly? is a thing, then bam believe that if you like.

Believers particularly tend to hold their beliefs as Absolute Truths, and this will kill you spiritually. Nothing wrong with Beliefs, ok, i have beliefs right now, beliefs are how we function.

i also make really bad statistical inferences, clown bad, and maybe you don't so this makes little sense to you, could be the whole explanation too i guess

 

[bbyrd009]

I can't speak for Enoch, but the website appears to be very left-leaning politically.

i usually completely ignore stuff like that for the relevant point, but fwiw i've heard this comment about 3-4 times and haven't seen an example yet, you might post one ty. I might suggest that an example was used in the article that strikes you as political, but the subject remains "magical thinking" in it's various forms to the end imo. But let's hear the political part, we'll see maybe. For, um, whatever reason Enoch has declined. hmm.

 

[Taken]

i'm just stating your beliefs from another perspective ok,

But the other perspective not being mine would render the other perspective irrelevant to me.

That's the beauty of being individuals...and not having to Join up with everyone who gets an idea they think is swell.

not trying to insult you, but see how you are carefully choosing your words already to avoid a truth that is becoming more apparent as you change your mind;

I haven't changed my mind

now the rapture is "the redeeming of a man's body" instead of a mass exodus.

WHO is the redeemER? Lord Jesus.

Redeem IS to gain or regain something in exchange for payment.

WHAT does the Lord GAIN? His Inheritance.
What was His payment? His Blood.
What is My payment? My Blood Life.
WHAT was the Exchange? My body, for His Life.

I have ALREADY given my Body's LIFE (Blood)
To the Lord.

He IS the REDEEMER, which means HE ALREADY has the Authority to REDEEM / TAKE my body....WHEN as I said, on the DAY He chooses.

WHAT He shall DO when He redeems/ takes/ claims my body.......is HOW He shall do it.

(Send me an invitation, text, phone call, make a house call......RSVP ?? And wait for me to respond?}

No. He shall raise up my glorified body TO HIM, who shall BE in the clouds, above the face of the earth.

Rapture is simply one word to describe A QUICK ACTION the Lord shall perform IN HOW HE SHALL REDEEM HIS CHURCH.
Raptured...snatched away, Quickly.

I clearly understand each aspect of who, what, how, where, why pertaining to redemption and rapture.

And i have no desire to judge either/any beliefs ok, the point is to see how we deceive ourselves, and to understand one mechanism for this.

I don't believe deception is learning and understanding each step ... and why I mentioned the very basics....who, what, how, where, why....

Statistical analysis is like hegelian dialectic ok, you do it all day long, you maybe just aren't so fam with it in those terms
so pls don't let the terms put you off

It's psychobabble... that simply is a cool way for people to get their opinon heard.

thousands of believers all rising naked into the sky at the same time would be pretty awesome lol, def something new under the sun i guess.

And ain't gunna happen as you imagine.

First of all...many "believers" are not on the list (your know, the Lamb's Book of Life)...
To be raptured.

Those to be Raptured, snatched quickly, are those who ARE Converted, by and through Christ.

Secondly, they are clothed in white robes.

Thirdly, If you are NOT with them, you will NOT SEE THEM, because they rise up in a Glorified BODY.

It is not something new under the sun...since Jesus already exampled HOW a glorified man would Rise up to the Clouds.

It would be a magic trick to most of the planet,

And WHY most of the planet, shall not be included.

and see that your biased opinion

I am pretty clear, I expressly trust the Lords Word....biased? Okay, with me. My opinion?
I trust to believe the Lords Word....Okay with me.

does not even matter right this second ok,

Must have mattered, you mentioned it.
And so can others TRUST what they choose to trust...be biased, and have opinions on what "they" trust to believe.

and we do not think any less of you for believing in rapture either, at least i don't.

That's fine. I don't think any more of someone who chooses other ideas over Gods Word.

Santa had zero to do with magic too, ok, you figured that out, you'll figure this out too.

Never said Santa Had anything to do with magic.

You do not have to believe like me, not even a little, not ever

True and visa versa.
The Lord desires we Believe Him.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Truth]

Has your belief system led you to visions of miraculous events that must occur in the near future that infer rewards in an afterlife for good deeds done today in order for your faith to even have any meaning? If it doesn't work out like you planned, and the miracles don't occur in the way you currently understand, what will that do to your faith? Are you a victim of magical thinking?

Here's How the Human Mind Is Wired For Magical Thinking

NO! With the situation we are in now, we always hope for a miraculous HEALING, But we also understand that the will of God is unsearchable.
So what ever happen's is out of our control! I see many Soul suffering, even on this Forum, But to lose Faith, NO! Here is the problem with the Belief System of today--- RELIGION ----- The very thing Our Savior was confronted with during His Ministry!

 

[bbyrd009]

Never said Santa Had anything to do with magic.

never said you did Taken

It's psychobabble... that simply is a cool way for people to get their opinon heard.

maybe, but hopefully it is a refreshing change from listening to oracles who say they know?

plus we are talking about how we form our opinions, and also the steps we can take to validate them, there really isn't much opinion in the article as near as i can tell; you are either better or worse at personal statistical analysis, which does not involve computers or spread-sheets, so i would ask you for a definition of Statistical Analysis before we even proceeded, with the understanding that business intelligence (BI) is not the context here, as it is for most SA.
You also make personal analyses based upon "statistics" if you will, hundreds of times a day prolly

 

[bbyrd009]

So what ever happen's is out of our control!

so then You reap what you sow is a lie?

neverminding that we are not even discussing the subject of the article any more wadr

 

[Truth]

so then You reap what you sow is a lie?

neverminding that we are not even discussing the subject of the article any more wadr

Reaping what we sow is an effect to how we live, sorry I did not read the article, I just responded!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Taken]

never said you did Taken

No you didn't. I simply was making my view clear is all.

maybe, but hopefully it is a refreshing change from listening to oracles who say they know?

plus we are talking about how we form our opinions, and also the steps we can take to validate them, there really isn't much opinion in the article as near as i can tell; you are either better or worse at personal statistical analysis, which does not involve computers or spread-sheets, so i would ask you for a definition of Statistical Analysis before we even proceeded,

Why are you asking me to define a term you brought up?

I look at polls and stats as a vague implication of a specific thing men either want another to BELEIVE or NOt Believe.

Vague? Poll one hundred, figure a %, then proclaim that is what 1,000 woulld choose and believe. IOW guesswork, that people think ARE facts.

with the understanding that business intelligence (BI) is not the context here, as it is for most SA.

You also make personal analyses based upon "statistics" if you will, hundreds of times a day prolly

Since you think that is so, and so often...perhaps you would not have much trouble providing an example of what you claim for me?

God Bless,
Taken

 

[bbyrd009]

Vague? Poll one hundred, figure a %, then proclaim that is what 1,000 woulld choose and believe. IOW guesswork, that people think ARE facts.

yes, exactly what we are not really talking about here wadr

Why are you asking me to define a term you brought up?

I look at polls and stats

bc this has nothing to do with polls or stats or spreadsheets or business, but rather the personal "statistical inference" that we all engage in every day. So iow you are informing me that you do not understand wadr, when you say that you look at stats and polls, bc these have nothing to do with the subject for our purposes, whether they are invoked in the article meant for a more general audience or not, which i don't think they were anyway?

Also while rapture is a good example it is too...emotionally charged, we would do better to consider more mundane operations here imo, everyday stuff

 

[Taken]

yes, exactly what we are not really talking about here wadr

bc this has nothing to do with polls or stats or spreadsheets or business, but rather the personal "statistical inference" that we all engage in every day. So iow you are informing me that you do not understand wadr, when you say that you look at stats and polls, bc these have nothing to do with the subject for our purposes, whether they are invoked in the article meant for a more general audience or not, which i don't think they were anyway?

Also while rapture is a good example it is too...emotionally charged, we would do better to consider more mundane operations here imo, everyday stuff

You and I are routinely in completely different zones... lol

Perhaps it would more advantages for you to just ask specific questions to me in response to something specific I have said.

God Bless,
Taken