living creatures in history theory

[Ronald Nolette]

I understand and sympathize. However, I find *lots of reason* to ask if this is "symbolism!" How can I not when these creatures are unlike anything we have ever seen on earth? "Eyes all about?" "6 wings?" "4 distinct appearances?" How can it *not* be symbolism?

Also, we are told that angels are "spirit creatures." Their appearance sounds more like physical, earthly creatures than whatever a "spiritual creature" is? Why not view them as symbolic?

But again, your point is well-taken. If we can't derive value out of the detail, then the detail should be of no consequence. It is purely descriptive of what "is."

Why view them as symbolic? Just because they are nowhere to be found on earth, does that preclude them existing? Cannot God create as He wishes? We have never seen the city of god so how can we presume what must things appear in heaven?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

However we are endeavoring to do just that...to interpret the numbers, symbols, colors, types and shadows etc...that are interwoven throughout all of scripture from Genesis the book of the "beginnings" of the creation of the heavens and the earth and mans existence in it...to Revelation the book of the "summations" of the created heavens and earth and mans existence in it.

We are not called to i9nterpret Scripture but to study scripture.

Symbols are clearly shown in Scripture and the definitions are also clearly provided in Scripture.

Your interpretation may differ from another who differs from another...... Then what we have is multi definitions of Scripture! God di dnot inspire a mystery book that required specially goifted people to interpret what teh words mean.

REd= red

God also created grammar and fully knows how to inspire a passage to show it is to take it symbolically.

The passages describing the Cherubim do not fall into that category.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Why view them as symbolic? Just because they are nowhere to be found on earth, does that preclude them existing? Cannot God create as He wishes? We have never seen the city of god so how can we presume what must things appear in heaven?

Yes, however, I never like to use the argument "God can do anything." A better argument is, "Is it likely that God do something?"

So we should ask ourselves, Is it likely that God would use earthly-appearing creatures as a guise for angels to represent a revelation to us? We already know God has revealed Himself in the past by taking on guises in the form of man for Himself, ie theophanies. And of course I would argue that God could actually make Himself into a Man, as He did with Christ. Yes, God can do anything! ;)

But it remains that God was also able to reveal Himself in guises that were symbolic representations rather than His permanent appearance. That's why I find it reasonable to suppose the Living Creatures were merely temporary appearances, revealed as such to explain to us how He is operating in our world at this time.

Clearly, we could see Christ when God revealed Himself as a Man. That was a permanent fixing of God's appearance on earth as He was in the form of a Man. But it is completely different with these Living Creatures. Nobody saw them except maybe Ezekiel and John, and perhaps a few other mystics who were privileged to behold them.

But the fact nobody sees them in the world indicates they are invisible. So how can they have the appearance of earthly creatures, which are visible?

 

[Reddsta]

Hi Ronald…
I think it is a case of semantics here for you and I.

We are not called to i9nterpret Scripture but to study scripture.

Symbols are clearly shown in Scripture and the definitions are also clearly provided in Scripture.

As I see it…I “study” the scripture that I may “understand” what is being presented…that is a form of interpretation. Additionally, from Genesis on God has used “types, shadows, colors, numbers, symbols and the like…to convey the consistency of His likeness and image in His message to mankind throughout the ages…this *does* require interpretation so that our growing and maturing faith has a place to “rest” and that is upon the steadfastness of Him…the “Rock.”

Your interpretation may differ from another who differs from another...... Then what we have is multi definitions of Scripture!

Yes that is true…isn’t that just part of spiritual life on earth today…I have often seen truth from another’s interpretation that I did not see on my own…when it reveals Christ…I embrace it…so I have no real trouble personally listening to, reading or hearing another’s spiritual point of view or revelation. I must admit…there are some that I have decided through various interactions that it is not worth the time it takes to understand their view.

God di dnot inspire a mystery book that required specially goifted people to interpret what teh words mean.

Oh but He did Ronald…He did…the book says so itself…the kingdom of God is a mystery to be explored…Paul notes this many times in his writings. In his day he claimed to speak God’s hidden wisdom in a mystery…and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God. Paul said he brought forth the mystery which has been hidden from the past ages and generations, but has now been manifested to His saints consider the following…

“To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ, and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things; so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places. This was in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord, in whom we have boldness and confident access through faith in Him.” (Eph 3:8-12 NASB)​

Surely you don’t believe that the revelation of Yahshua Christ is complete on the earth today?

In any case...I agree that you should study the scriptures and do as you feel led by God.

Redd...:)

 

[Reddsta]

Elitism, however, is not my thing. That there are distinctive gifts of apostles and prophets I will agree, and I do submit to the various ministries, although they will also have to submit to my teaching gift as well.

Agreed...elitism as you put it is really spiritual immaturity dressed in carnality...it will show the absence of humility eventually.

If what is said does not register in my spirit and in my knowledge of the Truth, I will reject it. And I will reject elitism as misrepresentative of God. Everything God does requires humble servants to properly minister who He is and what He says.

I am similar...if something does not register in my spirit...my discernment will either direct me to pursue it for revelation or to disregard it as false.

As you are aware Randy...humility can be a difficult reality to both receive and give when working on a forum like this. I have been much more successful in being humble or receiving another in humility when I know the person/people personally...face to face...on these forums it can be difficult. You have probably experienced similar.

Redd...:)

 

[Reddsta]

I don't know what you mean by saying "Christ...a corporate man"?

I am not surprised that you questioned these Randy…and I am glad you did. As we go through the “Four Living Creatures” the context of the “corporate man” will get kicked up a few times. I will however attempt to give you a basic look at what I believe the Lord is revealing to me…here now…to begin what will hopefully be an exciting ongoing answer to your question. With all the humility that I can muster in “this letter” here…prepare your faith Randy…perhaps some next steps for your call will come out of this journey.

Of course, you are familiar with Paul’s allegory of the “one Body of Christ” with many members from 1st Corinthians 12-14. The Body is not one member but many…he puts it this way in Ephesians 4…”one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all”…now add to that the word “corporate” which can mean “united or combined into one body.”

A body without its head is not a complete body and vice versa…we know that this “Body” has a “Head”…Yahshua Christ…so prophetically speaking “He” is complete…”Head and many membered corporate Body.”

In Ephesians 2 Paul tells us that once in Christ…“Jew and Gentile”…become “one new man.” Then in Ephesians 4 he tells us that this “One New Man” is to become a “mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. As a result, we are no longer to be children…”

“He”…is to grow up…when this “mature man…Christ Head and Body” comes forth or is revealed upon the earth…He will support the full grace and glory of the living God as seen in Christ Yahshua…His head…or as Paul puts it in Galatians 3:27 “For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.”

It is my understanding that this soon to be “Mature Man” whose Head is the Lord Yahshua and whose Body is made up of…currently…the “children of God” and what one day soon I think…will be…“the mature sons of God”…at some point in the future here…and He will be revealed as “the corporate Man…Christ…the Son of the Living God.”

That is what Romans 8:19 is all about…”For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.” Hence…”that Son is a spiritual man known as Christ...a corporate man.” We are looking at the “Four Living Creatures” that are in the midst and around the throne of the Lamb!

I'm not sure there is any Scripture saying "four is the number of God's creation"?

I am not going to go into any real detail here on the number 4 at this time…as once again we will kick up this understanding as we move along Randy. Here is what I will put forth for your consideration…

“Then God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and for seasons and for days and years; and let them be for lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth"; and it was so. God made the two great lights, the greater light to govern the day, and the lesser light to govern the night; He made the stars also. God placed them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth, and to govern the day and the night, and to separate the light from the darkness; and God saw that it was good. There was evening and there was morning, a fourth day.” (Gen 1:14-19 NASB)​

Up until then…the sun, moon and stars were not yet created…the purpose for these lights in creation is explained in the text. There was no “day or night” until the lights were created.

Additionally, consider the Ark of the Covenant…which represented the “presence of God” in Israel…it was carried by “four men”…in Ezekiel the Spirit of God was in the “Four Living Creatures wheels” they were shown as right under the very throne of God…of course…Ezekiel saw them on the earth.

In Revelation the four living creatures were the closest in proximity to the Lamb and the throne of God…of course…John was in heaven and he saw “them”…as they were in heaven. There is more...we will get into these things perhaps?

Redd...:)

 

[Randy Kluth]

Of course, you are familiar with Paul’s allegory of the “one Body of Christ” with many members from 1st Corinthians 12-14.

Yes, I thought that might've been where you were going. I heard this material about 50 years ago, so it's not new to me. I've been in Pentecostal circles for a long time.

I am not going to go into any real detail here on the number 4 at this time…as once again we will kick up this understanding as we move along Randy. Here is what I will put forth for your consideration…

Yes, we should *not* get dogmatic about what numbers mean unless we have real indication that's what is intended. We do know that the number "7" is often used in reference to a job ending in rest. The Jubilee used 7s to show how the bondage of debt ends in rest.

In Revelation the four living creatures were the closest in proximity to the Lamb and the throne of God…of course…John was in heaven and he saw “them”…as they were in heaven.

I do think the proximity of the 4 Living Creatures to the throne is significant. They may have surrounded the throne just as Israel had surrounded the Tabernacle on 4 sides.

But this throne room my brother suggested is like the naos-temple, ie the inner sanctuary where the priests ministered. Heaven has a place where only holy work is done. And that's what I think these angels were being commissioned to do, to open the 1st 4 seals and to declare the praises of God even as history is directed towards its consummation.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Agreed...elitism as you put it is really spiritual immaturity dressed in carnality...it will show the absence of humility eventually.

I am similar...if something does not register in my spirit...my discernment will either direct me to pursue it for revelation or to disregard it as false.

As you are aware Randy...humility can be a difficult reality to both receive and give when working on a forum like this. I have been much more successful in being humble or receiving another in humility when I know the person/people personally...face to face...on these forums it can be difficult. You have probably experienced similar.

Redd...:)

You better know it! ;) There are, however, a few of us who the Lord has really humbled, and are afraid to get our heads up too high. :)

 

[Timtofly]

But the fact nobody sees them in the world indicates they are invisible. So how can they have the appearance of earthly creatures, which are visible?

Why would they look like anything other than the image of God, like the sons of God? The symbolism of their description describes their involvement in creation, not what they look like.

For instance some claim a lion symbolizes Great Britain or the bear symbolizes Russia. What about either GB or Russia causes them to appear as a lion or bear? Certainly both countries are just human individuals, not literal lions or bears?

Why would these 4 beasts, not be the same 4 witnesses also described as 2 olive trees and 2 candlesticks?

 

[Reddsta]

But this throne room my brother suggested is like the naos-temple, ie the inner sanctuary where the priests ministered. Heaven has a place where only holy work is done. And that's what I think these angels were being commissioned to do, to open the 1st 4 seals and to declare the praises of God even as history is directed towards its consummation.

I agree whole heartedly Randy...it is very very seldom that I see the reference "naos" the actual presence of the living God in relationship to the Four Living Creatures. The "naos of God" is the place in His temple where He Himself dwells in Spirit...and I agree that it is the actual presence of the Lord who is commissioning them.

That is why we are looking into the "Four Living Creatures"...

Redd...:)

 

[Reddsta]

Why would they look like anything other than the image of God, like the sons of God?

Fantastic question! My response to you is this...these *do not* look like anything other than the image of God...they *are* the sons of God...as presented in visions of heaven (Ezekiel) and in heaven. (Revelation)

The symbolism of their description describes their involvement in creation, not what they look like.

Very well put Timtofly...very well put. This seems to open up to an opportunity for greater clarity and deeper understanding of the "Four Living Creatures." Thank you.

For instance some claim a lion symbolizes Great Britain or the bear symbolizes Russia. What about either GB or Russia causes them to appear as a lion or bear? Certainly both countries are just human individuals, not literal lions or bears?

Ok...as I have come to believe these symbols (lion, bear, leopard, fourth great beast) are all predatory in nature as evinced by how they treated humanity...and symbolized as such in scripture as well.

The way I have understood them...is that they operate is as predatory nations I am not referring to GB & Russia but to Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome and are all rolled up into the one great global beast of Satan.

Why would these 4 beasts, not be the same 4 witnesses also described as 2 olive trees and 2 candlesticks?

Interesting...4 witnesses? Of Revelation 11? That is a unique take on some very important symbols...I see the connection Timtofly...care to elaborate?

My answer is...that they are the same...but I only see reference to "two" witnesses in Revelation 11:3 that come out of John's measuring of the temple of God, the alter and those who worship there.

Maybe you could explain how you see two witnesses as 4? I have a strong belief that I understand who the two witnesses are...however with the increasing presence of the Lord Himself in the earth these days...His light and revelation is a continual forth coming.

Redd...:)

 

[Reddsta]

Part 2 The Four living Creatures…continued

Revelation 6:4…

Before the throne there was a sea of glass, like crystal. And in the midst of the throne, and around the throne… (Revelation 4:6a NKJV).​

“In the midst of the throne,” meaning…among and surrounding the throne…in the midst of circles. As I mentioned earlier, there are at least three different circles. One is the circle of angels; another is the circle of the twenty-four elders; and inside of that, the third circle and closest to the throne, that which encircles the throne and encircles the One who sits upon the throne, are these four living creatures.

…were four living creatures full of eyes in front and in back (Revelation 4:6b).​

“eyes in front and in back” means they could see in every direction. Seeing in every direction means you can see the past…the present…and the future. So these four living creatures are perfectly aware of what is in the mind of God from long ages past, where those events are in present time, and where they are going in the future.

“full of eyes in front and in back” They can see where they have been, they can see where they are, and they can see where they are going.

The first living creature was like a lion, the second living creature like a calf the third living creature had a face like a man, and the fourth living creature was like a flying eagle. The four living creatures, each having six wings, were full of eyes around and within (Revelation 4:7-8a).​

Again, the understanding is that they could see where they have been, they could see where they are, they could see where they are going, full of eyes around and within, seeing everything.

Note that when the Lamb is described, He has seven eyes and seven horns, which are a parallel metaphor…seven being the number of completeness and perfection…so the Lamb sees everything in the same manner in which these four living creatures see everything.

Let’s read the rest of the attributes of the four living creatures here so that we can get the whole picture. Then, we will talk about the lion, the ox, the man, and the eagle.

And they, do not rest day or night, saying: “Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, Who was and is and is to come!” (Revelation 4:8b)​

They are fully aware of the eternal things because they can speak of He who was (past), He who is (present), and He who is to come (future). So, they can actually see in every direction.

Whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, who lives forever and ever, the twenty-four elders fall down before Him who sits on the throne and worship Him who lives forever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying: “You are worthy, O Lord, To receive glory and honor and power; For You created all things, And by Your will they exist and were created” (Revelation 4:9-11).​

The twenty-four elders take their cues from the four living creatures. The four living creatures ordain the timing, and the twenty-four elders bring the order of things into creation. The functioning of a government is in view here.

“For You created all things”…They understand the governance associated with the purpose for creation. This is an incredible picture, in that we did not clearly understand it before nor did we really think about it or focus on it before…this simply means that the time had not come. Now the time has come.

Let us talk about these four living creatures for a moment. The first creature was like a lion. The lion, in physical creation and in heaven, is referred to as the conqueror.

Looking at chapter 5…the question was, “Who should take the scroll from the right hand of the One who sat on the throne, who held this scroll sealed with seven seals?” (Revelation 5:1-2) And it appeared that no one was qualified to do so, and so picking up at verse 4 of chapter 5, John says,

So I wept much, because no one was found worthy to open and read the scroll, or to look at it. But one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals.”​

And I looked, and behold, in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as though it had been slain, having seven horns [which means He is all powerful] and seven eyes [which means that He is able to see in everything], which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth (Revelation 5:4-6).​

That Lamb…who is announced as the Lion…He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne. I wanted to point out…that in the textual interpretation of the Lion here…the four living creatures…one had a face like a lion and He is standing around the throne at the time of the announcement of the Lion of the tribe of Judah who has overcome.

Contextually, this lion (the creature with the face of a lion) is in perfect harmony with…especially if He is going to execute the judgments of the Lamb…who is the Lion of the tribe of Judah. Hence, we are speaking of rule, the capacity to rule, having overcome. In fact, that is exactly what is said in Scripture:

“To him who overcomes I will give the right to sit with Me on My Father’s throne” (Revelation 3:21).​

So the lion is the overcomer, therefore, the ruler. Looking at these four living creatures, we are not speaking of an actual lion, but rather a creature that possesses the spirit of an overcomer, the spirit of a ruler, the spirit of the lion.

The second living creature is like an ox. In literature, and here in the Scriptures, the ox is synonymous with one who cannot be turned. We even use the term “stubborn as an ox,” which is one that is not easily distracted, persistent, unyielding we can revisit the Scripture when Paul wrote, “Be you therefore steadfast and unmovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord” (1 Corinthians 15:58).

You will see later on when we go to the book of Ezekiel to pick up on these four living creatures, that they do not deviate, they do not turn. They go straight forward and backward, and they do not turn.

In other words, this creature, this second living creature…this ox…cannot be turned because it knows where it is going, inasmuch as it sees: “full of eyes in front and in back.” It sees what has been, it sees what is now, and it sees what is to be.

The third living creature had the face like a man. In other words, these characteristics are representative of that which God raised up from the earth in order to bring forth…in the end of the age…that which was in the image and likeness of God.

It speaks of the potential of this man who has the spirit of a lion, the steadfastness of an ox, and now the fourth living creature was like an eagle. This eagle is flying, it is in action, it is seeing. This is the prophetic spirit that sees, being borne on the winds of time. The flying eagle depends upon the winds of the Spirit. He is moving in the realm of the spirit. This is how the prophetic operates. It is borne up on the invisible but real presence of the Spirit of God.

Redd...:)

 

[Timtofly]

Maybe you could explain how you see two witnesses as 4? I have a strong belief that I understand who the two witnesses are...however with the increasing presence of the Lord Himself in the earth these days...His light and revelation is a continual forth coming.

2 of the 4 were OT witnesses. The last 2 are NT witnesses

 

[Reddsta]

2 of the 4 were OT witnesses. The last 2 are NT witnesses

Ok...I see you working here...2 olive trees...2 candlesticks. Is it 1 olive tree and 1 candlestick referenced in each testament you are pointing out?

looks like it...I can work with this...can you tell me what you see the the olive tree and candlestick symbolizing?

Thank you

Redd...:)

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Yes, however, I never like to use the argument "God can do anything." A better argument is, "Is it likely that God do something?"

So we should ask ourselves, Is it likely that God would use earthly-appearing creatures as a guise for angels to represent a revelation to us? We already know God has revealed Himself in the past by taking on guises in the form of man for Himself, ie theophanies. And of course I would argue that God could actually make Himself into a Man, as He did with Christ. Yes, God can do anything! ;)

But it remains that God was also able to reveal Himself in guises that were symbolic representations rather than His permanent appearance. That's why I find it reasonable to suppose the Living Creatures were merely temporary appearances, revealed as such to explain to us how He is operating in our world at this time.

Clearly, we could see Christ when God revealed Himself as a Man. That was a permanent fixing of God's appearance on earth as He was in the form of a Man. But it is completely different with these Living Creatures. Nobody saw them except maybe Ezekiel and John, and perhaps a few other mystics who were privileged to behold them.

But the fact nobody sees them in the world indicates they are invisible. So how can they have the appearance of earthly creatures, which are visible?

the fact we do not see cherubim on earth does not mean they do not have avisible form Paul made that clear in 1 Cor. 15.

When the4 bible uses symbolism it almost in every instance uses comparative wordsa in the passage to let us know He is speaking symbolically.

The fact that precious saints com eup with enormous interpretations of things symbolic in SCripture is show cause that God does not leave things to chance for man to figure out in his finite mind.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Yes that is true…isn’t that just part of spiritual life on earth today…I have often seen truth from another’s interpretation that I did not see on my own…when it reveals Christ…I embrace it…so I have no real trouble personally listening to, reading or hearing another’s spiritual point of view or revelation. I must admit…there are some that I have decided through various interactions that it is not worth the time it takes to understand their view.

Well there is only one "interpretation" as you call it. It is that we are growing and learning. The term "spiritual point of view" comes with loads of baggasge with it. I would know what you mean by it.

Oh but He did Ronald…He did…the book says so itself…the kingdom of God is a mystery to be explored…Paul notes this many times in his writings. In his day he claimed to speak God’s hidden wisdom in a mystery…and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God. Paul said he brought forth the mystery which has been hidden from the past ages and generations, but has now been manifested to His saints consider the following…

“To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ, and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things; so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places. This was in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord, in whom we have boldness and confident access through faith in Him.” (Eph 3:8-12 NASB)
Surely you don’t believe that the revelation of Yahshua Christ is complete on the earth today?

Well mystery as written in the bible is vastly different than how we understand it today. It means something that was a "secret" in the past and now revealed.

No Scripture does not give us all things about jesus, just all things we need to live Godly and righteously for His glory while we occupy these bodies of flesh.

All these "spitiual revelations" have led to dangerous paths. How do you discern which are correct and which are in error? The Mormons claim they received special revelation. If you disagree with it, why?

 

[Randy Kluth]

the fact we do not see cherubim on earth does not mean they do not have avisible form Paul made that clear in 1 Cor. 15.

When the4 bible uses symbolism it almost in every instance uses comparative wordsa in the passage to let us know He is speaking symbolically.

The fact that precious saints com eup with enormous interpretations of things symbolic in SCripture is show cause that God does not leave things to chance for man to figure out in his finite mind.

Although I don't necessarily agree with you on this particular issue, I strongly agree with your point generally. The best way to avoid bad doctrine is to understand that when God wants us to know doctrine He doesn't lisp. I got that from a famous apologist named Walter Martin. I used to attend his classes and listen to him on the radio. ;)

However, on this particular point I don't necessarily agree because symbolism does not always require that it be explained that symbolism is being used. It is a self-evident form of literary device. When something is said that is obviously symbolic, it simply doesn't need be told us that it is symbolic.

For example, when all our lives we recognize that creatures made that communicate with God as we do have one head, and we see a creature with 4 heads, we can pretty well assume that we're looking at an angel taking on a symbolic appearance representing certain truths. If we see a picture of Medusa, I think we will recognize that this is myth or legend--not literal and real.

But all of this is arguable if I can't show you *why* 4 heads may appear on a single angelic personality. And that's what I'm working on, without prejudging whether I should view it as such or not.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

However, on this particular point I don't necessarily agree because symbolism does not always require that it be explained that symbolism is being used. It is a self-evident form of literary device. When something is said that is obviously symbolic, it simply doesn't need be told us that it is symbolic.

Yes it is a literary device and is always accompanied by comparative terms such as: "such as" like" "likened" "is as", which lets the reader know a comparison is being made.

euphemisms and idioms however do not. An example "it's raining cats and dogs". or "it is hot as hell" these literary devices generally refer back to a point of fact or making a known comparative statement to exaggerate a point.

Thuis the cherubs mentioned in Ezekiel and revelation, because we have no reference as to their form in heaven, we simply do not have warrant to say these are symbolic terms that mean something else.

 

[Timtofly]

Ok...I see you working here...2 olive trees...2 candlesticks. Is it 1 olive tree and 1 candlestick referenced in each testament you are pointing out?

looks like it...I can work with this...can you tell me what you see the the olive tree and candlestick symbolizing?

Thank you

Redd...:)

The only thing that comes to mind is that there have been 4 witnesses throughout the 6,000 years.