Limited atonement !

[brightfame52]

Paul preached particular effectual atonement for his Gospel, using the scriptures for his guide 1 Cor 15:3-4

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

What OT scripture would he be referring to ? Im sure Isa 53 is one of them Isa 53:10-12

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

The sins of His seed and or the many not all mankind, scripture never states that.

 

[Runningman]

Exactly, but they don't want to talk about Judas ore the Galatians for that matter who fell from grace

You're right. I brought it up earlier in the thread and some interest was shown, but no one directly commented on how it works with limited atonement. I can't find anything from John Calvin ever directly explaining how Judas works out with limited atonement either. There is a powerful argument to make using Judas and the Galatians that limited atonement is a false gospel.

 

[brightfame52]

The death of Christ is limited to the sons or children of God Jn 11:50-52

50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.

Because they are children God sends the Spirit in their hearts to seal them Gal 4:4-6

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

But all will not receive the Spirit Jn 14:16-17

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Receiving the Spirit is proof Christ died for you. Acts 10:47


Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 11

 

[brightfame52]

The existence of Judas having been chosen, directly promised eternal life, and then lost creates a plausibility issue for your gospel.

False, judas was a chosen reprobate

 

[brightfame52]

No – that’s NOT how it works.

I presented my Scriptural evidence. I bolded and underlined the pertinent parts. The onus is on YOU to disprove it. These verses clearly refute the Calvinist heresy of Limited Atonment.

You presented scripture without no exegetical proof they go against limited atonement, thats your responsibility first and foremost. You expect me to do the exegeting of your scriptures NOT

 

[Ritajanice]

False, judas was a chosen reprobate

I too believe, because Jesus would have known that from the beginning.

 

[brightfame52]

You're right. I brought it up earlier in the thread and some interest was shown, but no one directly commented on how it works with limited atonement. I can't find anything from John Calvin ever directly explaining how Judas works out with limited atonement either. There is a powerful argument to make using Judas and the Galatians that limited atonement is a false gospel.

Neither of you can prove judas was a saved believer. Prove it from the words of Jesus !

 

[Runningman]

Neither of you can prove judas was a saved believer. Prove it from the words of Jesus !

Jesus told Judas directly to his face that he will have eternal life. He lost his salvation.

Matthew 19
27“Look,” Peter replied, “we have left everything to follow You. What then will there be for us?”
28Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, in the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on His glorious throne, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or fields for the sake of My name will receive a hundredfold and will inherit eternal life.

 

[Runningman]

Neither of you can prove judas was a saved believer. Prove it from the words of Jesus !

Yes I can. Judas had miraculous powers because he was a believer. This is explicit in Scripture.

Mark 16
17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In My name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues;

Matthew 10
1And calling His twelve disciples to Him, Jesus gave them authority over unclean spirits, so that they could drive them out and heal every disease and sickness.

 

[Ritajanice]

Lots of different commentaries out there regarding if Judas was saved..here is one of them.

Judas — Does the Bible indicate that Judas was not saved?​

Bible Question:​

Does the Bible indicate that Judas was saved? Does John 17:12 refer to Judas as the son of perdition?

Bible Answer:​

Does the Bible indicate that Judas was saved? There are several reasons the answer is no! The strongest statement is found in John 17:12. It refers to Judas. He was one of Jesus’ twelve disciples.

While I was with them, I was keeping them in Thy name which Thou hast given Me; and I guarded them, and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. John 17:12 (NASB)

Judas — Used With Permission of Duncan Long

Judas — The Son of Perdition​

John 17 records Jesus’ high priestly prayer with the Father just before His betrayal and death. In this prayer, Jesus said only one of His disciples was lost, the son of perdition. The Greek word for “perdition” is apoleia which means “destruction, waste, loss, ruin, or perishing.” Jesus is simply saying that one of His twelve disciples was eternally lost. He was not saved. This was a fulfillment of the prophecy found in Psalm 41:9 which states,

Even my close friend in whom I trusted,
Who ate my bread,
Has lifted up his heel against me.
Psalm 41:9 (NASB)

This is a prophetic reference to Judas. This agrees with John 17:12 which says that only one was lost, the son of perdition.

Judas — Never Believed in Christ​

Other passages reveal that from the start of His ministry, Jesus knew His betrayer did not believe in Him. In fact, Judas was influenced and manipulated by Satan, himself. This can be seen in the following verses.

Jesus answered them, “Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?” Now He meant Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the twelve, was going to betray Him. John 6:70-71 (NASB)

Here Jesus called Judas a devil. This reveals that Judas was a tare. Judas was an apostate. He had full knowledge about Christ and still did not believe. He only looked like a real follower to the other disciples. The fact that Judas was influenced by Satan is reported by these passages,

And during supper, the devil having already put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, to betray Him . . . John 13:2 (NASB)
“I do not speak of all of you. I know the ones I have chosen; but it is that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ‘HE WHO EATS MY BREAD HAS LIFTED UP HIS HEEL AGAINST ME.'” John 13:18 (NASB)
When Jesus had said this, He became troubled in spirit, and testified, and said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, that one of you will betray Me.” The disciples began looking at one another, at a loss to know of which one He was speaking . . . Simon Peter therefore gestured to him, and said to him, “Tell us who it is of whom He is speaking.” . . . Jesus therefore answered, “That is the one for whom I shall dip the morsel and give it to him.” So when He had dipped the morsel, He took and gave it to Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot. And after the morsel, Satan then entered into him. Jesus therefore *said to him, “What you do, do quickly.” John 13:21-27 (NASB)

From the very beginning, Judas was described figuratively as a “devil.” He was not actually the devil. Later in John 13:2 we are told the devil was motivating Judas to betray Jesus. In John 13:21-27, we discover that Satan entered Judas. So Judas left the last supper. He met the Jewish religious leaders and guided them to Jesus. When he met Jesus, he betrayed Him with a kiss (Luke 22:47-48). Later, after Jesus’ death and return to life, the apostles sought the Lord to determine who should replace Judas (Acts 1:16-20). During the discussion, the following statement was made,

“. . . to occupy this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place.” Acts 1:25 (NASB)

This passage says that Judas “turned aside.” The Greek for “turned aside” is parabaino. This word refers to someone who made the decision on his own to leave. Scripture prophesied that Judas would do this. That is, Judas made the decision to reject Christ.

 

[David Lamb]

The existence of Judas having been chosen, directly promised eternal life, and then lost creates a plausibility issue for your gospel.

Where do we read that Judas was "directly promised eternal life?" He was chosen as one of the twelve, but Jesus knew that Judas would betray Him:

“"Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and to the scribes; and they will condemn Him to death,” (Mt 20:18 NKJV)

“Now as they were eating, He said, "Assuredly, I say to you, one of you will betray Me."” (Mt 26:21 NKJV)

“"The Son of Man indeed goes just as it is written of Him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born." Then Judas, who was betraying Him, answered and said, "Rabbi, is it I?" He said to him, "You have said it."” (Mt 26:24-25 NKJV)

As has been pointed out, in His high-priestly prayer, Jesus refers to Judas as the son of perdition:

“"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.” (Joh 17:12 NKJV)

 

[brightfame52]

Jesus told Judas directly to his face that he will have eternal life. He lost his salvation.

Matthew 19
27“Look,” Peter replied, “we have left everything to follow You. What then will there be for us?”
28Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, in the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on His glorious throne, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or fields for the sake of My name will receive a hundredfold and will inherit eternal life.

Prove that He included Judas. Jesus excluded judas in many things Like Jn 17:12

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

 

[brightfame52]

Yes I can. Judas had miraculous powers because he was a believer. This is explicit in Scripture.

Mark 16
17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In My name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues;

Matthew 10
1And calling His twelve disciples to Him, Jesus gave them authority over unclean spirits, so that they could drive them out and heal every disease and sickness.

Says nothing about judas being saved. Many going to hell that did stuff like that, they werent saved, Jesus never knew them Matt 7:22-23

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

 

[Rightglory]

False, judas was a chosen reprobate

Just as no person is chosen to believe, no person is chosen to be a reprobate. The word chosen as used here is God in His foreknowledge knew the heart of Judas. So, God chose Him for a specific purpose of service. He was used to fulfill an OT prophesy.
Also, you claim he was not saved. That part is correct. No human being, if they are living in this world has ever been "saved" past tense during their lifetime. Believers are promised they shall, or will inherit eternal life. Never does it say they possess it in this life. It is always an assurance. Every statement comes with a condition. The big word "if" they remain faithful.
So, yes Judas was one of those who followed Jesus. Jesus used him the same way as the disciples, gave him the same power and authority as any other disciple. But he did fall from grace, or lost his faith, as many other followers of Christ did as well.

Your root issue which blinds you from most of scripture is the idea that there is a privileged group of people that were elected to believe. And if so, then none can fall away. On that one alone you must deny most of the NT.

 

[BreadOfLife]

You presented scripture without no exegetical proof they go against limited atonement, thats your responsibility first and foremost. You expect me to do the exegeting of your scriptures NOT

If you’re not prepared to defend your heresy – then just say so. The onus is on YOU because this heresy was NOT invented until the 16rg century. It was NOT taught from before that – all the way back to the Apostles.

The heresy of Limited Atonement posits that only the sins of the “Elect” were atoned for.
EVERY verse I presented shows that this is NOT true – and that Jesus died for the sins of ALL people. This doesn’t mean that “ALL” will be forgiven. Forgiveness requires repentance.

YOUR turn . . .

 

[brightfame52]

@Rightglory

Just as no person is chosen to believe, no person is chosen to be a reprobate.

False, everyone's destiny was preordained by God before the foundation, to be a believer or a reprobate. But thats a different thread

 

[brightfame52]

If you’re not prepared to defend your heresy – then just say so. The onus is on YOU because this heresy was NOT invented until the 16rg century. It was NOT taught from before that – all the way back to the Apostles.

The heresy of Limited Atonement posits that only the sins of the “Elect” were atoned for.
EVERY verse I presented shows that this is NOT true – and that Jesus died for the sins of ALL people. This doesn’t mean that “ALL” will be forgiven. Forgiveness requires repentance.

YOUR turn . . .

You not prepared to defend your presentation, you just drop it off on your opponent, thats cowardly

 

[brightfame52]

@BreadOfLife

The onus is on YOU because this heresy was NOT invented until the 16rg century.

Oh yeah, 16th century ? Then prove it

 

[rebuilder 454]

No the elect are chosen, and then they believe and follow Him. And its the regenerated man that believes and follow, not the flesh

That would robots.

What you need to see is the analogy IN THE WORD of the bride and groom.
That is the game changer.
Do a study on the Jewish wedding proposal.

Also, on a side note, Jn 3:16 is hard to wiggle out of.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Good question. Paul teaches us that at the Last Trumpet, those in Christ will be taken up into the air to be with him forever. Since they are forgiven, they don't experience judgment. God has already decided to give them eternal life.

Believers are judged in this life.
" he scourges every son he recieves"
We enter heaven, God's presence, through the blood...not any righteousness of our own.
No sin judgement of believers in heaven.


In fact, Paul said , "Some enter heaven as through fire. They are saved, but they're works are burned up, because they're works are wood,hay, and stubble.