Limited atonement !

[Lambano]

What if they hear it, but don't believe it? What if they believe it but fall away?

So what if they do? Does that take anything away from the fact that Christ died for them?

 

[Lambano]

In 1 Cor 15 Paul was writing those statements to a particular people, not all mankind.

I see. Paul's "gospel" is not The Gospel. At least, not the one we're supposed to proclaim to the world. Got it.

 

[CadyandZoe]

@Hey You!



Yes it is the Gospel, Part of it, you must be specific and truthful about who Christ died for.

You may already know that for some, the question is whether God limits us or we limit ourselves. Please take a look at the following passage.

John 3:16 For God loved the world in this way: He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

From this passage, one could contend that we play a significant role in limiting the atonement ourselves. Each of us possesses the agency to choose whether to believe or to turn away from belief. However, it’s crucial that we fully appreciate and respect the experiences of those who were among the first to encounter the gospel message. For first-century Jews, grappling with the notion that God would deliberately allow His chosen Messiah to undergo such horrific torture and execution at the hands of their enemies was nearly inconceivable. Moreover, the idea that God would resurrect someone from the dead posed an even greater challenge to understanding, as not everyone in Israel embraced the belief in resurrection. Therefore, when certain individuals react with hostility or rejection towards the Gospel message, one must ponder what more God could possibly do to reach and save those individuals who struggle with such profound concepts.

In his teachings, Jesus imparted to his disciples a profound message about the coming of the "Spirit of Truth." He explained that this divine presence would enter the world to illuminate the human heart, drawing attention to the realities of sin and the impending judgment. This revelation shifts the fundamental question we face: given the challenges of belief and understanding, God knew it was essential to send His Spirit into the world to inspire and persuade individuals.

Jesus emphasized that without the transformative influence of the Holy Spirit, a person would struggle to comprehend the true nature of the kingdom of God, much less find a place within it. There are myriad obstacles that can obstruct belief—doubt, confusion, and resistance—that God has the power to eliminate for those He has chosen. Through the work of the Holy Spirit, these barriers can be dismantled, allowing for a clearer path to faith and understanding in the divine kingdom.

Thanks for providing me with a place to clarify the question. I suspect that you already know what I have said here. Great discussion. Thanks.

 

[CadyandZoe]

So what if they do? Does that take anything away from the fact that Christ died for them?

Undoubtedly, Christ died for the ungodly, even while they were God's enemies, as the Apostle Paul said. That is true. But also, Jesus said that God loved the world in that he gave his son so that whoever believes in Jesus Christ shall find eternal life.

As one reflects deeply on the profound significance of Jesus's sacrifice, a question may arise regarding its effectiveness and necessity, especially when considering the relatively small number of individuals who truly believe and persevere to the end. This contemplation invites an intriguing discussion: could it be that Jesus's sacrifice was wholly effective, but only for those whom God has specifically chosen for salvation? In this light, it becomes evident that Jesus's death was not in vain; rather, it holds immeasurable value for those intended to receive its grace and redemption.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Yes it does...the Father only chose who He foreknew would believe. That doesn't eliminate the fact that it is offered to all.

Where does it say that the Atonement was offered to anyone other than God?

 

[Rightglory]

Where in the Bible does it say that the atonement is universally applicable? Doesn't faith and belief enter into it? And what if faith doesn't endure to the end? What then?

All over the Bible. You are confusing the atonement with the application or purpose of the atonement. Christ performed the atonement, not man. Man has nothing to do with the atonement. Whether one man only believed, or every single person believed does not limit the work of Christ in His atonement.
He made one perfect sacrifice for sin. The atonement was to God, not man. Now, in heaven, Christ is our High Priest. He is able to forgive our sins, whosoever believes. Only one or millions or billions. Who believes or does not believe has no effect upon the atonement.

 

[Lambano]

As one reflects deeply on the profound significance of Jesus's sacrifice, a question may arise regarding its effectiveness and necessity, especially when considering the relatively small number of individuals who truly believe and persevere to the end.

Does baptism have "effectiveness"? Does the Eucharist? No. They have meaning.

 

[Ritajanice]

The NT use of the term "all" is true. And you don't need to take my word. You can look it up yourself.

It depends on what you mean by "for all men." The gospel is preached to all men. That is certain. But only a tiny fraction of men (and women) believe the gospel and persevere in belief. Jesus illustrated this concept in his parable of the soils.

What does believe the Gospel mean?

For me....my spirit is Born Again....so there is no doubt that I believe because I have been birthed into the Spirit of Christ.= Spirit gives birth to spirit....the Spirit indwells my spirit, there is no escaping him...not that I would ever want to....the Living Spirit testifies with my spirit that I am Gods child.....it can get very hard at times....and lonely....

I don’t think hearing the gospel..is the same as being Born Again.....I don’t even know what hearing the gospel means?

I only understand that I was Born Again 33 years ago.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Does baptism have "effectiveness"? Does the Eucharist? No. They have meaning.

Good point. So, Atonement also has meaning, which is Christ's assigned meaning. Paul explains the meaning in Romans chapter 3.

Romans 3:21-26 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

According to Paul, the crucifixion of Jesus served as a profound and public manifestation of God's righteousness. This moment was not merely an event in history; it became the cornerstone for the concept of propitiation—an atonement for all who choose to believe. In willingly sacrificing His life, Jesus fulfilled a divine purpose that brought joy to God, effectively appeasing His wrath on behalf of all believers. Paul vividly illustrates the process of propitiation, likening it to Jesus entering the heavenly temple, where He offers His own blood at the altar. Through this act, God is pleased and extends His forgiveness to all those for whom Jesus intercedes, highlighting the depth of grace available to the elect.

Why do I say "available to the elect?" In Paul's defense of the Gospel against those who say that God promised salvation to the Hebrew people, he argues that God is choosing individuals to save, marking them as one of his by circumcising their hearts. Romans 9:6-13 emphasizes God's sovereignty in choosing His people. Paul explains that not all descendants of Israel are true Israelites, and God's promises are fulfilled through His divine election rather than human lineage or effort. Using the examples of Isaac and Ishmael, and Jacob and Esau, Paul illustrates that God's choice is based on His purpose and calling, not on works or merit. This passage highlights that God's decisions are rooted in His will and grace.

In essence, it is believed that God selects certain individuals for salvation, and this divine choice is confirmed by the powerful presence of the Holy Spirit within the hearts of those chosen believers. This notion is beautifully illustrated in Romans 5, where it conveys that those whom God has chosen will have the fortitude to endure various trials and challenges of faith, thanks to the outpouring of God's Spirit into their inner being. Furthermore, in Romans 8, the Apostle Paul emphasizes that the Holy Spirit will breathe life into those who have received the Spirit of Christ, reinforcing their connection to the divine and empowering them in their spiritual journey.

 

[Ritajanice]

In essence, it is believed that God selects certain individuals for salvation, and this divine choice is confirmed by the powerful presence of the Holy Spirit within the hearts of those chosen believers

Yes...that makes sense...resonates with my spirit...

His Spirit permanently indwells my spirit....I know in my spirit that all Glory belongs to God....I’m on the back burner so to speak.

Glorifying his name....and by his Living testimony....I know God and I know that Jesus died and was resurrected....this has all been witnessed to my spirit...when my spirit became Born Again...

Jesus is the atonement for the sins of all that will come to know him, by the power of the Living Holy Spirit.....I don’t think he atoned for the sins of the whole world....if he did....then we wouldn’t have hell would we?

 

[CadyandZoe]

What does believe the Gospel mean?

For me....my spirit is Born Again....so there is no doubt that I believe because I have been birthed into the Spirit of Christ.= Spirit gives birth to spirit....the Spirit indwells my spirit, there is no escaping him...not that I would ever want to....the Living Spirit testifies with my spirit that I am Gods child.....it can get very hard at times....and lonely....

I don’t think hearing the gospel..is the same as being Born Again.....I don’t even know what hearing the gospel means?

I only understand that I was Born Again 33 years ago.

Belief can be understood as the cognitive process of acknowledging and accepting a truth claim as genuine or valid. It involves adopting a particular proposition or notion to be true without necessarily requiring empirical evidence or proof. Belief is often influenced by personal experiences, cultural context, and emotional factors, which can shape an individual's perception of reality. In essence, it is the mental acceptance and internalization of an idea or assertion that one considers accurate or reflects the nature of reality.

Not all truth claims are easy to grapple with, particularly those found in the Bible that speak to the nature of our existence. Many individuals struggle deeply with the concept that they are spiritually dead in their sins and fundamentally in need of a savior. Most of us tend to view ourselves through a lens of self-affirmation, convincing ourselves that we are inherently good and not as flawed as others might suggest.

In these moments of reflection, the role of the Holy Spirit becomes crucial. It serves as a guiding force, illuminating the often uncomfortable truths about who we are and nudging us towards accepting a more honest perspective on our lives. My wife plays a significant role in this process; she often gently encourages me to confront my realities. "Cady, you need to give in to reality!" she reminds me, as she observes my tendency to shy away from facing the facts.

There are instances when I acknowledge the truth yet struggle to fully embrace it. I possess the intellectual ability to understand the situation, but emotional acceptance often eludes me. It's a curious paradox: being aware of the truth while simultaneously grappling with the reluctance to accept it in my heart and mind. My wife's insight and that of the Holy Spirit help bridge that gap, urging me to confront what is right in front of me, no matter how challenging it may be.

It is a true statement that Jesus saves sinners. And he will save me if I finally accept the truth that I am a sinner.

 

[Ritajanice]

Belief can be understood as the cognitive process of acknowledging and accepting a truth claim as genuine or valid. It involves adopting a particular proposition or notion to be true without necessarily requiring empirical evidence or proof. Belief is often influenced by personal experiences, cultural context, and emotional factors, which can shape an individual's perception of reality. In essence, it is the mental acceptance and internalization of an idea or assertion that one considers accurate or reflects the nature of reality.

Not all truth claims are easy to grapple with, particularly those found in the Bible that speak to the nature of our existence. Many individuals struggle deeply with the concept that they are spiritually dead in their sins and fundamentally in need of a savior. Most of us tend to view ourselves through a lens of self-affirmation, convincing ourselves that we are inherently good and not as flawed as others might suggest.

In these moments of reflection, the role of the Holy Spirit becomes crucial. It serves as a guiding force, illuminating the often uncomfortable truths about who we are and nudging us towards accepting a more honest perspective on our lives. My wife plays a significant role in this process; she often gently encourages me to confront my realities. "Cady, you need to give in to reality!" she reminds me, as she observes my tendency to shy away from facing the facts.

There are instances when I acknowledge the truth yet struggle to fully embrace it. I possess the intellectual ability to understand the situation, but emotional acceptance often eludes me. It's a curious paradox: being aware of the truth while simultaneously grappling with the reluctance to accept it in my heart and mind. My wife's insight and that of the Holy Spirit help bridge that gap, urging me to confront what is right in front of me, no matter how challenging it may be.

It is a true statement that Jesus saves sinners. And he will save me if I finally accept the truth that I am a sinner.

Thanks for explaining what you believe....none of that happened to me....I became Born Of The Spirit in an instance...of course many have said that it’s my emotions...well, they are entitled to their opinions.

I mean let’s face it.....who on earth is going to believe that my spirit is Born Again....The Spirit/ Love Of God completely overwhelmed me, when my spirit became Born Again....after all. We are speaking the Living God here....who recognises me now as his child....as my spirit is Born Again......still “ blows my mind” to this day.

I am a child of the Living God chosen and predestined to become Born Again, at the specific appointed time...his timing is perfect.Praise God.

 

[CadyandZoe]

All over the Bible. You are confusing the atonement with the application or purpose of the atonement.
Christ performed the atonement, not man. Man has nothing to do with the atonement.
Whether one man only believed, or every single person believed does not limit the work of Christ in His atonement.

While you make a good point about the logic of the atonement, Your perspective is lacking in depth. The atonement serves a significant purpose that goes beyond mere forgiveness; it is fundamentally about addressing and appeasing God's wrath against sin. While some Christians may be led to believe that the primary aim of the atonement is simply to confer forgiveness, this understanding misses a deeper truth. The core intention of the atonement is to act as a propitiation, a means through which God's righteous anger is satisfied. This profound act of sacrifice not only clears the way for forgiveness but also empowers Jesus to stand as an advocate and intercessor for those who place their faith in him. Through this process, believers are assured of His continual support and representation before God.

Jesus willingly offered his blood on the cross, an act rooted in his profound obedience to the Father. This sacrificial act not only demonstrated his unwavering commitment but also granted him the unique authority to intercede on behalf of those who follow him. By appeasing God's wrath through his sacrifice, Jesus establishes a compassionate bridge between humanity and the divine, making it possible for God to respond favorably to Jesus’ pleas for forgiveness and mercy towards his followers.

Jesus warned his disciples that people would come in his name, casting out demons, but he will say "get away from me. I never knew you." In this way, Jesus emphasized the profound importance of knowing and being known by Jesus. John, in his first letter, picks up this theme in his discussion of the propitiation.

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

1John 2:1-6 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world. By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.​

John reveals who has an advocate with the Father: those who know him. Jesus' advocacy is predicated on the fact that the Father's wrath was appeased through his death on the cross.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Thanks for explaining what you believe....none of that happened to me....I became Born Of The Spirit in an instance...of course many have said that it’s my emotions...well, they are entitled to their opinions.

I mean let’s face it.....who on earth is going to believe that my spirit is Born Again....The Spirit/ Love Of God completely overwhelmed me, when my spirit became Born Again....after all. We are speaking the Living God here....who recognises me now as his child....as my spirit is Born Again......still “ blows my mind” to this day.

I am a child of the Living God chosen and predestined to become Born Again, at the specific appointed time...his timing is perfect.Praise God.

I understand. I answered your question, "What does belief in the gospel mean?" How did I do? :)

 

[brightfame52]

Be careful that you don't corrupt the gospel by claiming it isn't for all. Although only those that believe it will reap the benefit.

Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

You are corrupting it claiming it is for all, that is Christ died for everyone, all without exception, if you preach that,its a false gospel

 

[brightfame52]

I see. Paul's "gospel" is not The Gospel. At least, not the one we're supposed to proclaim to the world. Got it.

Its not what you see, its what you dont see, you definitely dont see the Gospel or believe the Gospel Paul preached, you are an adversary to it

 

[brightfame52]

@CadyandZoe

John 3:16 For God loved the world in this way: He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

From this passage, one could contend that we play a significant role in limiting the atonement ourselves. Each of us possesses the agency to choose whether to believe or to turn away from belief. However, it’s crucial that we fully appreciate and respect the experiences of those who were among the first to encounter the gospel message. For first-century Jews, grappling with the notion that God would deliberately allow His chosen Messiah to undergo such horrific torture and execution at the hands of their enemies was nearly inconceivable. Moreover, the idea that God would resurrect someone from the dead posed an even greater challenge to understanding, as not everyone in Israel embraced the belief in resurrection. Therefore, when certain individuals react with hostility or rejection towards the Gospel message, one must ponder what more God could possibly do to reach and save those individuals who struggle with such profound concepts.

This doesnt make sense in light of limited atonement .

 

[Ritajanice]

I understand. I answered your question, "What does belief in the gospel mean?" How did I do? :)

You explained it well, Brother...it’s very difficult for me to understand how others come to the Lord....as I had no choice in becoming Born Again....some on here get very nasty when I give my testimony...

Because they apparently chose God....which I have no problem with, if that’s what they believe.

The problem I have is when they tell me that I chose God..rather than respect my belief that is Biblical..

They gang up on me, trying to force me to believe what they believe....no chance of that Ever happening.

My spirit is secure 100% in Christ..my spirit knows that it’s Born Again....I have never ever doubted the Living testimony of God..when he testified with my spirit that I am a child of God....

Maybe they get nasty because they may doubt their own rebirth...who knows...but, Jesus did say that you will know them by their fruit.

 

[Marymog]

Does baptism have "effectiveness"? Does the Eucharist? No. They have meaning.

The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us

It appears baptism does have "effectiveness"....

 

[Marymog]

Does baptism have "effectiveness"? Does the Eucharist? No. They have meaning.

When we partake of the Eucharist (bread) we are doing what he TOLD us to do.

Me thinks if we don't do what He told us to do it will have an effect on our salvation. Are you doing what He told you to do Lambano?

Curious Mary