Justified by Works

[Gottservant]

I'm saying it's wrong to say how we live after being saved cannot/does not affect our justification.

If that was your point, I'm sorry but I missed it.

What you are saying here is that whether the glass is half full or half empty is (EDIT) everything to do with the glass.

It (how we live) does not affect our justification outside the law. But no one desires to remain outside the Law. Hence everyone needs Grace. What I am saying is that that need for Grace, is important - the works you may want to do, may not be great before God, but it is important to you (and we are commanded to love one another, so if it is important to you, it is important to us).

I think what I say to you is, you believe you are "saved by Grace" and that your conduct is imperative to keeping that "salvation", now ask yourself 'what is Great, about my faith (that is, in God's Eyes)?" Does God say "Yes! My Grace is Great in this child of Mine" (He may, but not before Jesus!)?

 

[GracePeace]

If that was your point, I'm sorry but I missed it.

No problem

 

[Fred J]

2 Timothy 3:
16. All scripture is given by the inspiration of GOD, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17. That the man of GOD may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

First, every true born again man of GOD are disciple by all scripture = Holy Bible.
Second, one who apparently profited, doctrine, reproof, correction and instruction in righteousness.
Third, henceforth he may be perfect, thoroughly furnished, and in faith able to perform all good works.

These go hand in hand according to the commission Jesus gave to His chosen Apostles before ascension. After He have disciple them since the beginning, and witnessing with works in full time ministry for the Kingdom of GOD. He apparently instructed them to go forth and firstly make likewise disciples of all nation. To what the four Gospels are testaments, and within also inclusion all the sayings of the Old Testament man of GOD relatively to sum up.

Next, the book of Acts is partly a testament of the Apostles' and churches' by discipleship, in faith are with works, even assisted by the Holy Ghost. Furthermore, their epistles to the book of Revelation, is a testament for further discipleship of the churches. That is finally for their added faith in witnessing orally and with works, towards one another and to the lost. Resulting henceforth until today, we now have the Holy Bible in full testament of our forefathers' faith with works.

On the other hand, disciple by all scripture, especially the New Testament put forth in faith alone, and without works, is 'alone' and 'dead'. Likewise, 'hearers' and 'not doers' of the word/teaching/saying of Jesus Christ, even ones through the Apostles, in the New Testament. These are liken unto a 'foolish man', who built his house in the sand, and in due time is tested, but fell with a great fall.

Finally, those who 'abide not' similarly to the word/teaching/saying of Jesus Christ, even ones through the Apostles in the New Testament. These are truly not His disciples, and they will not know the truth, and the truth shall not set them free. They remain slaves to sin, for the Son have not set them free and they're not free indeed.

2 John 1:
9. Whosoever transgresseth, and abide not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not GOD. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the FATHER and the Son.
10. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him GOD speed:
11. For he that biddeth him GOD speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

Matthew 7:
21. Not every one that saith unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he that doeth the will of the My FATHER which is in Heaven.
22. Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name? and in Thy name have cast out devils? and in Thy name done many wonderful works?
23. And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Apparently we pick and choose and paste scripture by verses and chapters, to justify our true born again Christian faith and works. Nevertheless to the context, truthfully Christ's word/saying/teaching exposes our 'shortsighted', 'lukewarm', and 'still in sin', lack faith with works lives. For now ahead of time, He's helping us to repent and do right, or we'll be only accumulating troubles for ourselves on judgement day.

Hebrews 3:
15. While it is said, To day if ye will hear HIS voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

Hebrews 4:
1. Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into HIS rest, any of you should seen to come short of it.
9. There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of GOD.
11. Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
12. For the word of GOD is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
13. Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in HIS sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of HIM with whom we have to do.
14. Seeing then that we have a Great High Priest, that is passed into the Heavens, Jesus Son of GOD, let us hold fast our profession.
15. For we have not an High Priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
16. Let us therefore come boldly unto the Throne of Grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ.

 

[GracePeace]

2 Timothy 3:
16. All scripture is given by the inspiration of GOD, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17. That the man of GOD may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

First, every true born again man of GOD are disciple by all scripture = Holy Bible.
Second, one who apparently profited, doctrine, reproof, correction and instruction in righteousness.
Third, henceforth he may be perfect, thoroughly furnished, and in faith able to perform all good works.

These go hand in hand according to the commission Jesus gave to His chosen Apostles before ascension. After He have disciple them since the beginning, and witnessing with works in full time in ministry for the Kingdom of GOD. He apparently instructed them to go forth and firstly make likewise disciples of all nation. To what the four Gospels are testaments, and within also inclusion all the sayings of the Old relatively to sum up.

Next, the book of Acts is partly a testament of the Apostles' and churches' by discipleship, faith with works, even assisted by the Holy Ghost. Furthermore their epistles to the book Revelation, is a testament for further discipleship of the churches. Finally, for their added faith in witnessing with works as well, resulting until today we have the Holy Bible as in full testament.

On the other hand, disciple by all scripture, especially the New Testament put forth in faith, and without works is 'alone' and 'dead'. Likewise, 'hearers' and 'not doers' of the word/teaching/saying of Jesus Christ, even through the Apostles in the New Testament. Is related unto a 'foolish man', who built his house in the sand, and in due time is tested, but fell with a great fall.

Finally, those who 'abide not' similarly in the word/teaching/saying of Jesus Christ, even through the Apostles in the New Testament. These are truly not His disciples, and they will not know the truth, and the truth shall not set them free. They remain slaves to sin for the Son have not set them free and not free indeed.

2 John 1:
9. Whosoever transgresseth, and abide not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not GOD. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the FATHER and the Son.
10. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him GOD speed:
11. For he that biddeth him GOD speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

Matthew 7:
21. Not every one that saith unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he that doeth the will of the My FATHER which is in Heaven.
22. Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name? and in Thy name have cast out devils? and in Thy name done many wonderful works?
23. And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Apparently we pick and choose and paste scripture by verses and chapters, to justify our true since born again Christian faith and works. Nevertheless, to the context truthfully Christ's word/saying/teaching exposes our 'shortsighted' and 'lukewarm' and 'still in sin' faith and lives. For now ahead of time, He's helping us to repent and do right, or we'll be only accumulating troubles for ourselves on judgement day.

Hebrews 3:
15. While it is said, To day if ye will hear HIS voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

Hebrews 4:
1. Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into HIS rest, any of you should seen to come short of it.
9. There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of GOD.
11. Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
12. For the word of GOD is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
13. Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in HIS sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of HIM with whom we have to do.
14. Seeing then that we have a Great High Priest, that is passed into the Heavens, Jesus Son of GOD, let us hold fast our profession.
15. For we have not an High Priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
16. Let us therefore come boldly unto the Throne of Grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ.

I have meant that, in Romans, we can't be justified by "a righteousness of our own", but by "grace"/"God's righteousness', and, yet, final justification is still only for doers of good (2:6-16), and daily justification still apparently hinges on doing good (1:17, 4:12, 14:5, 23), therefore doing good must be "grace"/"God's righteousness"--therefore, people shouldn't complain "that's justification by works/one's own righteousness" when I simply recognize justification is for doers of good.

 

[mailmandan]

Faith in Christ is our righteousness:

Philippians 3:9 - and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith.

 

[GracePeace]

Philippians 3:9 - and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith.

Yep, because there is no goodness in our flesh (Ro 7), we can't fulfill the good Law (Ro 7) if we're in the flesh, or walking after the flesh, but those in the spirit (Ro 8:9) fulfill the Law when they walk after the spirit (Ro 8:4), because God is full of the goodness which His Law requires, and He Who is good works in us (Ro 3 "God's righteousness apart from the Law") to will and do for His pleasure (Php 2:12,13). The entire ostensible goal of the Law was that God be pleased with our lives, not infuriated--however, now, we have Grace, God working His righteousness in us, so that He will be pleased, not infuriated, by us.

In other words, the phrase "a righteousness of my own from the Law" doesn't mean that, by contrast, "a righteousness not my own" isn't SEEN in one's life (in one's thoughts, desires, actions); it means "the righteous life I lead is not performed by/does not prove my own goodness, it is performed by/proves God's goodness".

 

[Fred J]

I have meant that, in Romans, we can't be justified by "a righteousness of our own", but by "grace"/"God's righteousness',

Right, and this is referring to a person who is not saved. That one have no credibility by one's righteousness receive the favor of GOD and Salvation.

and, yet, final justification is still only for doers of good (2:6-16), and daily justification still apparently hinges on doing good (1:17, 4:12, 14:5, 23),

This is referring to the already born again and disciple by the All Scripture = Holy Bible church. (2Timothy3:16&17)

therefore doing good must be "grace"/"God's righteousness"--therefore, people shouldn't complain "that's justification by works/one's own righteousness" when I simply recognize justification is for doers of good.

The reflection of the true doers of good are recognizable by their fruit eventually. For example, the Holy Bible is the good tree which branches out with good healthy leaves, that are the believers. And this tree apparently draws it's nutrition from the root itself, who is Christ Jesus our Lord.

On the other hand, the pruner of bad leaves and cutter of every branch that bear not fruit, is GOD the FATHER. Finally, profited by all scripture within disciples, hence perfect and thorough in faith for every good works, indoor and outdoor, are the fruits.

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ

 

[GracePeace]

Right, and this is referring to a person who is not saved. That one have no credibility by one's righteousness receive the favor of GOD and Salvation.

This is referring to the already born again and disciple by the All Scripture = Holy Bible church. (2Timothy3:16&17)

The reflection of the true doers of good are recognizable by their fruit eventually. For example, the Holy Bible is the good tree which branches out with good healthy leaves, that are the believers. And this tree apparently draws it's nutrition from the root itself, who is Christ Jesus our Lord.

On the other hand, the pruner of bad leaves and cutter of every branch that bear not fruit, is GOD the FATHER. Finally, profited by all scripture within disciples, hence perfect and thorough in faith for every good works, indoor and outdoor, are the fruits.

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ

What I've been saying is that it is God's righteousness that justifies--the first justification, the ongoing justification, and the final justification--and yet it is not something that does not involve activity on our part, and it is wrong to say "I was justified by God's righteousness, not my own, and that is not going to change--nothing I do after I am justified by faith can affect my justification".

I don't think you would disagree, but I'm still not sure if you're understanding what I've been saying.

 

[Fred J]

What I've been saying is that it is God's righteousness that justifies--the first justification, the ongoing justification, and the final justification--and yet it is not something that does not involve activity on our part, and it is wrong to say "I was justified by God's righteousness, not my own, and that is not going to change--nothing I do after I am justified by faith can affect my justification".

I don't think you would disagree, but I'm still not sure if you're understanding what I've been saying.

What did i testify differently from yours?

Are servants greater than their Master?

And yet the Master makes His servants great, whether righteous or not.

In His absence but present is His word/saying/teaching in the Holy Bible. Therefore there are servants who are 'doers', 'abiders' and 'obedience' to His commandments. And, there are those who do not or do less or do a little more or less, yet serve the Master in His absence.

Yet the Master have predicted, "On that day many will say to Me, ........................................................."

No matter all is and thing are from the Master, yet there is and are the efforts of the servants as well in His absence. Apparently, in His presence there is obedience and loyalty for sure.

But what about the test for these in His absence as well, to evaluate a good and faithful servant from the not.

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ.

 

[GracePeace]

What did i testify differently from yours?

Are servants greater than their Master?

And yet the Master makes His servants great, whether righteous or not.

In His absence but present is His word/saying/teaching in the Holy Bible. Therefore there are servants who are 'doers', 'abiders' and 'obedience' to His commandments. And, there are those who do not or do less or do a little more or less, yet serve the Master in His absence.

Yet the Master have predicted, "On that day many will say to Me, ........................................................."

No matter all is and thing are from the Master, yet there is and are the efforts of the servants as well in His absence. Apparently, in His presence there is obedience and loyalty for sure.

But what about the test for these in His absence as well, to evaluate a good and faithful servant from the not.

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ.

If you think you're saying nothing different, good for you, but you have words like "yet", as if you disagree. If you want to disagree, go ahead; if not, I'm glad you agree.

 

[Fred J]

If you think you're saying nothing different, good for you, but you have words like "yet", as if you disagree. If you want to disagree, go ahead; if not, I'm glad you agree.

i disagree, because there is also the effort and obedience of the servants/believers as well, during the Master's absence. A good and faithful servant start out by one's first baby crawl, and next walk step by step, and then run the run. Finally in progression running and finishing the race, eventually grow towards maturity to become an 'elder'.

Because the Master have provided every thing in His house and left for a far away country, and to return one day. Also before departing, He have given them talents and instructions to each of His servants. That they henceforth in His absence, 'do', 'abide' and 'obey' the word/saying/teaching of their Master, He have disciple them beforehand.

Nevertheless, servants in their service to humanity require not special thanks in return. They are just to answer, they are merely servants and just done their duty (Luke 17:10)

Even in the final judgement, Jesus separates His servants or believers. Where on one side are the 'sheep/wheat' and on the other are the 'goats/weeds'. He says to the 'sheep', that in His absence they have shown many charitable kindness in the lowest point of His life. In return the servants in confusion replied, when did they ever do these things to Him. He just instructed them to enter His place of rest, ordering His servants to gather these 'wheat' and store them in the 'barn/warehouse'.

Now on the other hand He says to the 'goats' on the other side waiting their turn. That in His absence they have not shown any charitable kindness in the lowest point of His life. In return they replied, that they did, and reasoned. when did they never do these things to Him. But He instructed them to depart, ordering His servants to gather these weeds and throw them into the furnace.

Here we go, faith and with works of a servant/believer the Master judges on, and not by credibility. The sheep's every good works were profited since disciple by all scripture, and whilst they 'hear' then 'do', 'abide' and 'obey' the word/saying/teaching of Jesus Christ. On the other hand, the 'goats' too profited the same, and whilst they 'hear', but not or partially 'do', 'abide and 'obey' word/saying/teaching of His. Therefore since 'lukewarm', they fall short in showing charitable kindness even to the least follower of His, as failing to do for Him.

Am unable to agree that GOD does all the work in us and we lift not our hands at all on our own. Then i would consider myself a Pinocchio with my nose growing forward. By the way, you're not testifying your views differently, but merely by how you understand you present it.

Peace be with you in Jesus name

 

[GracePeace]

i disagree, because there is also the effort and obedience of the servants/believers as well, during the Master's absence.

You haven't read carefully, because I didn't say anything contrary to this. I've tried to explain over and over. You can go back and read what I've already written--I don't think I should waste my effort explaining when you don't read.

 

[Fred J]

You haven't read carefully, because I didn't say anything contrary to this. I've tried to explain over and over. You can go back and read what I've already written--I don't think I should waste my effort explaining when you don't read.

By the way, you're not testifying your views differently, but merely by how you understand you present it.

Looks like you yourself are not reading carefully but jump into conclusion.

Am no better either, for my efforts are minimal as 'doer', 'abider' and 'obedient', to Christ's word/saying/teaching in the New Testament. Nevertheless, my given gift to profess that GOD is the truth and man including me are liars, is apparently the testimony.

Peace be with you in Jesus name

 

[GracePeace]

Am no better either, for my efforts are minimal as 'doer', 'abider' and 'obedient', to Christ's word/saying/teaching in the New Testament. Nevertheless, my given gift to profess that GOD is the truth and man including me are liars, is apparently the testimony.

Peace be with you in Jesus name

You are not interacting with the topic.

 

[GracePeace]

Looks like you yourself are not reading carefully but jump into conclusion.

You said you disagreed, and your reasoning was...

i disagree, because there is also the effort and obedience of the servants/believers as well, during the Master's absence.

...
Am unable to agree that GOD does all the work in us and we lift not our hands at all on our own.

I never said there was no effort or obedience, nor that God did all the work and we lift not our hands at all on our own.

So, how am I "jumping to conclusions"? You said you disagreed with me on the basis that I ostensibly said there was no effort or obedience on our part, and that God did all the work and we lift not our hands at all on our own.

Again, you're misunderstanding me, and you are misrepresenting me.

However, then, you add this statement...

By the way, you're not testifying your views differently, but merely by how you understand you present it.

...as if you don't necessarily disagree, after having already said you disagreed, and after having already explained why you disagreed--you're equivocating.

 

[Fred J]

So, how am I "jumping to conclusions"? You said you disagreed with me on the basis that I ostensibly said there was no effort or obedience on our part, and that God did all the work and we lift not our hands at all on our own.

To me you're jumping to conclusion because my disagreement is with those readers who oppose, and not you.

So we're clear now, thank you very much.

 

[Fred J]

By the way do you realize there's no one else replying to your topic?

 

[GracePeace]

To me you're jumping to conclusion because my disagreement is with those readers who oppose, and not you.

So we're clear now, thank you very much.

If you did not intend to express disagreement, then, I am sorry to say, you do not know how to express yourself in English.

 

[GracePeace]

By the way do you realize there's no one else replying to your topic?

Yeah, that happens sometimes--whether it's because they know they can't prove otherwise, or for what ever other reason, there are lulls at times.

 

[Fred J]

If you did not intend to express disagreement, then, I am sorry to say, you do not know how to express yourself in English.

That you've got to understand, for i do come from the different side of the globe and am unlearned.

"For now there is faith, hope and love, but the greatest is love."

Have you heard this song by Haddaway, "Where is love, baby don't hurt, don't hurt me, no more."

That's why it figures that there are those who do not reply back to us. Looks like we've have to do the reality check on ourselves, rather than always on others.

Peace in Jesus name