Justified by Works

[Grailhunter]

Sorry, I am a man.
I do not know why you would have concluded I was a lady.

God is good to me, and I have given Him endless trouble, but He is merciful, and I am getting along now I think thanks to the prayers of you all.

You really do, but I know the discussion will never reach its conclusion (which is what I aim at) unless I stick to the topic and not express my emotions.

I'm not sure what you're referring to.

I always thought GodsGrace was a guy! LOL!

Thanks!

Good to see the humor in it.

 

[Marymog]

Walking by faith is not "works".

"Works" is "a righteousness of my own"; walking in faith is God's righteousness (Ro 1:17; 14:5,23).
"I was abundant in labors above them all, yet, not I, but the grace with me."
"I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me."
"[Christ] came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near."
Because walking in faith is not "a righteousness of my own", but God's, justification thereby is "grace not works".

When the Galatians believed a false Gospel of works, what was Paul's solution?
Was it "believe in Christ alone"? No.
Instead, he instructs them to serve one another by faith working through love.
What's the difference between being under Law and serving others by faith?
Doesn't the Law tell you to love your neighbor?
The Law directs attention to self, to condemn sinfulness.
Looking to the Law/self is turning from Christ; looking to Christ is turning from the Law/self.
"For through the law I died to the law so that I might live to God."
"You who are trying to be justified by the law have been severed from Christ..."
Whose righteousness it is depends on who you behold--self or Christ.
Thus, to serve others by faith Christ authors differs from Law.

Paul had Timothy circumcised, yet he was not an accursed false teacher.
Why? Because Paul did it "because of the Jews in the region".
Paul was serving the Jews, trying to open a door so they might be saved.
Paul's circumcising Timothy proceeded from Christ for the Jews' salvation.
It wasn't because Paul sought justification by Law.

Thus, what makes something a "work", one's own righteousness, is who performs it.
When we walk by faith, that is God performing the righteousness.
"Yet not I but the grace with me."
If we do works, even good ones, without faith, we are condemned (Ro 14:5,23).
Faith is looking to Christ, not self.
God's righteousness, not our works.
"Not I but Christ."

Therefore, to say we're justified by walking in faith is "grace not works".
It's not us.
James taught so.

Paul calls marriage or celibacy "each man's gift".
So, man's walking in either of these is his "gift" given by grace--not his "work".
Walking in faith is "the gift of righteousness"--not our works, but God's.

Thus, Ro 2 can say "doers of the Law will be justified" without contradicting "grace not works".
The examples of doers it gives are Gentile believers who walk in God's righteousness by faith.
Walking by faith is not a righteousness of one's own, but God's.

Some claim "works" refers to Jewish practices like circumcision.
"We're not justified by becoming Jews," is their conclusion.
That doesn't work: Ro 3 "by works of Law comes the knowledge of sin".
Ro 7:7 says the fact that coveting is sinful is known by the Law.
So, "works of Law" encompasses the entirety of the Law's commands.

Then how can we be justified by being doers of the Law?
Because the works that justify come from God, as a gift, not self.
That's the difference--God's righteousness or man's righteousness.

So, yes, actually, we are justified, as James says, by walking in faith--and it's not a contradiction of "grace not works".
Paul uses "works" technically.
It seems James is correcting people who've misunderstood Paul.
It seems James uses "works" in a less technical way.

People misunderstand Paul, as Peter says, and they come up with all this confusing incoherent arguments that are nonsense.

 

[Taken]

WORKS and SERVICE are two different things.

WORKS is what a man DOES for His Benefit.
SERVICE is what a man DOES to Benefit Another.

WORKS a man does…IS to BELIEVE in his heart….IN GOD and Christ Jesus.

ALL men shall receive a REWARD “FOR” their WORKS (which glorifies God)

SERVICE a man does….IS a long list…From CONFESSING to the Lord God, to AIDING another, to SPEAKING the Word of God to Others…

ALL men shall receive A BLESSING (and / or) A GIFT “FOR” their SERVICE (which glorifies God).

WORKS / SERVICE that which DOES NOT GLORIFY God…shall be burned.


Glory to God,
Taken

 

[GodsGrace]

Righteous is having the quality of being right, just.
Righteousness then would be in a right, just standard with God, how? By obeying God's will.

OK.
Righteous just means that we are right with God.
But some speak of our having the righteousness of God.
There's some nuance here I can't quite grasp...my belief is that this phrase is being
used incorrectly.

From the moment we become born again we must be righteous of our own doing....
It is God WORKING IN US that makes us have the capability of obeying Him and being pleasing to Him.
It is OUR righteousness that God sees---our being right with Him.

Therefore when God commands repentance and baptism for the remission of sins and you obey God by repenting and being baptized then you would be righteous before God, God makes you to be just, right.

Agreed.
It is US doing the proper work, or call it what you will, our obedience to God ... OUR deeds/doings.

Righteousness is used in different ways in the Bible. One way is how you interact with fellow human beings. Are you righteous in your dealing with other people, that is, are you fair or do you cheat and steal in your dealings.

Agreed again.
And STILL, it is US doing the proper works that make us BE RIGHT with our fellow humans.

I hear too many that state that our works are as filthy rags...
OUR righteousness is not acceptable.

I believe they mean self-righteousness - but it's never expressed in those terms.

NO. Our works are not filthy rags to God...
our works, good deeds, are precisely what God wants from us.

Jesus invites us to the Kingdom of God here on earth.
In this Kingdom - invisible, spiritual, but still having an effect on our world paradigm - that absolutely requires us to do good.
As we're instructed in the NT - not going to list verses but there are A LOT...

Another way is how Paul used righteousness in Rom 4 in the sense of justification in how righteousness was imputed to Abraham and David not based on works of the OT law but by an obedient faith. Abraham nor David were sinlessly obedient but they had an faithful obedience in doing what God said hence they were in a just, right standard with God.

Right.
The Law is different from having an obedient faith and doing God's work with love and not fear or force.

Since men sin, men have a need to be made just or right with God and "the righteousness of God" is how God makes men right, just with Him....

Rom 1
"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith."

The righteousness of God, even in the above, just means that God is righteous and maintains His word.


OF COURSE this is true so I don't see the need to keep bringing this up when discussing works.
2 Timothy 2:13 God will always remain faithful to Himself...He can only BE righteous. (divine simplicity).

The gospel of Christ contains the righteousness of God that teaches man what God requires of man for man to be made in a right, just standard with God.

Sounds like you're saying what I understand to be correct.
So, let me ask you - do you feel the OP is using the expression God's righteousness correctly?
I just don't think so but am not wont to go on with this discussion.

I just think it sounds too much like those Christians I briefly described above that expect God to do everything for them because they feel only God's righteousness is valid and not their own.

 

[GodsGrace]

What study tools do you have?
Remember, we need to read the Scriptures with an Eastern mindset.
J.

I don't have study tools.
I've studied the bible with 2 different denominations and know a third.
I read it for myself and make sure I understand what is being said in the bible...
if I hear something different, I do look up commentaries, but rarely and after reading differing opinions I
stand by the one that does not cause conflict.

I don't know how a westerner is supposed to understand scripture in an Eastern sense.
I'm a westerner---are you?

Our culture colors what we understand - I try to remember that the OT and the NT is speaking to the Jews BY JEWS.
I don't know if this is taken into consideration....
We also have expressions that if read plainly 2,000 years from now would be difficult to understand.
Why do we hang our clothes?
Did they commit a crime?
It's really important to know hermeneutics and I don't claim to know hermeneutics more than just a fraction.

I also realize that we Christians speak different languages, as is apparent in this very thread.

 

[GodsGrace]

Sorry, I am a man.
I do not know why you would have concluded I was a lady.

God is good to me, and I have given Him endless trouble, but He is merciful, and I am getting along now I think thanks to the prayers of you all.

You really do, but I know the discussion will never reach its conclusion (which is what I aim at) unless I stick to the topic and not express my emotions.

I'm not sure what you're referring to.

I always thought GodsGrace was a guy! LOL!

Thanks!

Your last sentence made the post pretty funny!

I think what @Grailhunter is alluding to was in my first post to you on this thread.
You use terms that are a little different than what most are used to so it creates questions
as to what exactly you mean.

But it's our life that counts and not how we speak, so we'll leave it at that.

 

[Johann]

I don't have study tools.
I've studied the bible with 2 different denominations and know a third.
I read it for myself and make sure I understand what is being said in the bible...
if I hear something different, I do look up commentaries, but rarely and after reading differing opinions I
stand by the one that does not cause conflict.

I don't know how a westerner is supposed to understand scripture in an Eastern sense.
I'm a westerner---are you?

Our culture colors what we understand - I try to remember that the OT and the NT is speaking to the Jews BY JEWS.
I don't know if this is taken into consideration....
We also have expressions that if read plainly 2,000 years from now would be difficult to understand.
Why do we hang our clothes?
Did they commit a crime?
It's really important to know hermeneutics and I don't claim to know hermeneutics more than just a fraction.

I also realize that we Christians speak different languages, as is apparent in this very thread.

No problem @GodsGrace. Stay anchored in our Lord Christ Jesus, sealed by the Holy Spirit, with the eyes of your understanding enlightened as we each walk in the light we've been given by Him.

The hope of mankind doesn't rest on our ability to perform or believe perfectly, but on the faithfulness of God.

We are all called to work out our own salvation with reverence and awe.
I do concur "we Christians" speak in heteron languages.

Shalom.
J.

 

[GracePeace]

WORKS and SERVICE are two different things.

WORKS is what a man DOES for His Benefit.
SERVICE is what a man DOES to Benefit Another.

WORKS a man does…IS to BELIEVE in his heart….IN GOD and Christ Jesus.

ALL men shall receive a REWARD “FOR” their WORKS (which glorifies God)

SERVICE a man does….IS a long list…From CONFESSING to the Lord God, to AIDING another, to SPEAKING the Word of God to Others…

ALL men shall receive A BLESSING (and / or) A GIFT “FOR” their SERVICE (which glorifies God).

WORKS / SERVICE that which DOES NOT GLORIFY God…shall be burned.


Glory to God,
Taken

My point was telling someone they'll be condemned, not justified, if they walk in doubt, contrary to their convictions (Ro 1:17, 14:5, 23) doesn't appear to contradict "grace not works", bc "works" is what emanates from flesh (Ro 8:3), but "grace" and "faith" emanate from God. Two completely different sources of righteousness.

I'm sure we'll disagree, I just wanted to clarify.

 

[Johann]

My point was telling someone they'll be condemned, not justified, if they walk in doubt, contrary to their convictions (Ro 1:17, 14:5, 23) doesn't appear to contradict "grace not works", bc "works" is what emanates from flesh (Ro 8:3), but "grace" and "faith" emanate from God. Two completely different sources of righteousness.

I'm sure we'll disagree, I just wanted to clarify.

You seem to forget Romans 7 and the struggle of the two yetzer's in the life of the believer.
Praise God for Romans 7!

J.

 

[GracePeace]

OK.
Righteous just means that we are right with God.
But some speak of our having the righteousness of God.
There's some nuance here I can't quite grasp...my belief is that this phrase is being
used incorrectly.

From the moment we become born again we must be righteous of our own doing....
It is God WORKING IN US that makes us have the capability of obeying Him and being pleasing to Him.
It is OUR righteousness that God sees---our being right with Him.

Agreed.
It is US doing the proper work, or call it what you will, our obedience to God ... OUR deeds/doings.

Remember Paul says "I was abundant in labors above them all yet not I but the grace with me". It doesn't mean we don't have labors because it is grace/God's righteousness; the REASON I have gone about to make the distinction is to defend against the accusation that telling Christians they will be condemned if they walk contrary to their convictions is "works based salvation". It's not "works" based, because walking in faith is not "works", because "works" has a corresponding "righteousness of my own", whereas walking in "faith" is "God's righteousness". Abraham had "steps of faith". I am saying we are to have faith but also have "steps of faith".

 

[GodsGrace]

Remember Paul says "I was abundant in labors above them all yet not I but the grace with me". It doesn't mean we don't have labors because it is grace/God's righteousness; the REASON I have gone about to make the distinction is to defend against the accusation that telling Christians they will be condemned if they walk contrary to their convictions is "works based salvation". It's not "works" based, because walking in faith is not "works", because "works" has a corresponding "righteousness of my own", whereas walking in "faith" is "God's righteousness". Abraham had "steps of faith". I am saying we are to have faith but also have "steps of faith".

I give up GracePeace!
You seem to vacillate from one postition to the other and I just don't think it's important for me to
understand you 100%. Although it would be nice to speak the same language.

Christians walk according to their convictions.
Why do you think there are so many denominations?
Why do you read on these forums that persons are looking for churches that agree with THEM?
And not the other way around - going to a church to learn.

The ONLY works based salvation is a salvation that doesn't exist.
WORKS DO NOT SAVE.
I could be a very good person doing all the right things,
but if I don't know God and follow His teachings, I will not be saved.

In post 248 you said this to @Taken:
My point was telling someone they'll be condemned, not justified, if they walk in doubt, contrary to their convictions (Ro 1:17, 14:5, 23) doesn't appear to contradict "grace not works", bc "works" is what emanates from flesh (Ro 8:3), but "grace" and "faith" emanate from God. Two completely different sources of righteousness.

Hebrews 11:6
6And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

Works DO NOT have a corresponding righteousness of our own.
If you're speaking about a non-believer, then you're going to have to state that because our conversations
here are between believers and those that at least claim to know God.
We are REQUIRED to do good works - should I list about 10 verses or do we agree?
Why use the word WORKS in the same sentence as SELF-RIGHTEOUSNESS?
It's a bit confusing to those reading along.

In post 248, you said this to @Taken :
My point was telling someone they'll be condemned, not justified, if they walk in doubt, contrary to their convictions (Ro 1:17, 14:5, 23) doesn't appear to contradict "grace not works", bc "works" is what emanates from flesh (Ro 8:3), but "grace" and "faith" emanate from God. Two completely different sources of righteousness.

Some points:
1. Because someone walks in doubt does not make them condemned.
2. MAYBE walking against your conviction might just be what saves you.
There are some on this very forum who feel it's OK to take the name of God in vain and still be saved.
A very dangerous position. THEY should walk AGAINST their conviction and follow the instructions in the NT - even if they don't agree with them.
3. Works do not emanate from the flesh....unless one is not born again. I never read you stating this.
Works are a necessary component of the born again life. Some call the good deeds, some call them fruit - it's the same.
4. Grace emanates from God. Correct.
5. Faith emanates from God? God needs faith?
WE are the ones that are required to have faith.
God is faithful - but that's different than having faith.

So, sometimes it sounds like you're saying that works are necessary,
and sometimes it sounds like you're saying that works are only of the flesh.

But you don't have to explain to me....
I'm just saying why I find your posts confusing.

I'm going to check out your filthy rags thread later on.

 

[GracePeace]

I give up GracePeace!
You seem to vacillate from one postition to the other and I just don't think it's important for me to
understand you 100%. Although it would be nice to speak the same language.

Christians walk according to their convictions.
Why do you think there are so many denominations?
Why do you read on these forums that persons are looking for churches that agree with THEM?
And not the other way around - going to a church to learn.

The ONLY works based salvation is a salvation that doesn't exist.
WORKS DO NOT SAVE.
I could be a very good person doing all the right things,
but if I don't know God and follow His teachings, I will not be saved.

In post 248 you said this to @Taken:
My point was telling someone they'll be condemned, not justified, if they walk in doubt, contrary to their convictions (Ro 1:17, 14:5, 23) doesn't appear to contradict "grace not works", bc "works" is what emanates from flesh (Ro 8:3), but "grace" and "faith" emanate from God. Two completely different sources of righteousness.

Hebrews 11:6
6And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

Works DO NOT have a corresponding righteousness of our own.
If you're speaking about a non-believer, then you're going to have to state that because our conversations
here are between believers and those that at least claim to know God.
We are REQUIRED to do good works - should I list about 10 verses or do we agree?
Why use the word WORKS in the same sentence as SELF-RIGHTEOUSNESS?
It's a bit confusing to those reading along.

In post 248, you said this to @Taken :
My point was telling someone they'll be condemned, not justified, if they walk in doubt, contrary to their convictions (Ro 1:17, 14:5, 23) doesn't appear to contradict "grace not works", bc "works" is what emanates from flesh (Ro 8:3), but "grace" and "faith" emanate from God. Two completely different sources of righteousness.

Some points:
1. Because someone walks in doubt does not make them condemned.
2. MAYBE walking against your conviction might just be what saves you.
There are some on this very forum who feel it's OK to take the name of God in vain and still be saved.
A very dangerous position. THEY should walk AGAINST their conviction and follow the instructions in the NT - even if they don't agree with them.
3. Works do not emanate from the flesh....unless one is not born again. I never read you stating this.
Works are a necessary component of the born again life. Some call the good deeds, some call them fruit - it's the same.
4. Grace emanates from God. Correct.
5. Faith emanates from God? God needs faith?
WE are the ones that are required to have faith.
God is faithful - but that's different than having faith.

So, sometimes it sounds like you're saying that works are necessary,
and sometimes it sounds like you're saying that works are only of the flesh.

But you don't have to explain to me....
I'm just saying why I find your posts confusing.

I'm going to check out your filthy rags thread later on.

LOL

Ro 14:23 says if you do something you doubt is correct you are CONDEMNED. Why do you deny that?

There are SOOOO many points to address, but I fear it will be a fruitless endeavor--and I don't think you need to know this. Some things are better left unsaid and unknown. Like they say "Sometimes the cure is worse than the disease."

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

OK.
Righteous just means that we are right with God.
But some speak of our having the righteousness of God.
There's some nuance here I can't quite grasp...my belief is that this phrase is being
used incorrectly.

From the moment we become born again we must be righteous of our own doing....
It is God WORKING IN US that makes us have the capability of obeying Him and being pleasing to Him.
It is OUR righteousness that God sees---our being right with Him.



Agreed.
It is US doing the proper work, or call it what you will, our obedience to God ... OUR deeds/doings.


Agreed again.
And STILL, it is US doing the proper works that make us BE RIGHT with our fellow humans.

I hear too many that state that our works are as filthy rags...
OUR righteousness is not acceptable.

I believe they mean self-righteousness - but it's never expressed in those terms.

NO. Our works are not filthy rags to God...
our works, good deeds, are precisely what God wants from us.

Jesus invites us to the Kingdom of God here on earth.
In this Kingdom - invisible, spiritual, but still having an effect on our world paradigm - that absolutely requires us to do good.
As we're instructed in the NT - not going to list verses but there are A LOT...


Right.
The Law is different from having an obedient faith and doing God's work with love and not fear or force.



The righteousness of God, even in the above, just means that God is righteous and maintains His word.


OF COURSE this is true so I don't see the need to keep bringing this up when discussing works.
2 Timothy 2:13 God will always remain faithful to Himself...He can only BE righteous. (divine simplicity).

Sounds like you're saying what I understand to be correct.
So, let me ask you - do you feel the OP is using the expression God's righteousness correctly?
I just don't think so but am not wont to go on with this discussion.

I just think it sounds too much like those Christians I briefly described above that expect God to do everything for them because they feel only God's righteousness is valid and not their own.

Those of the faith only persuasion try to find ways for a person to be righteous/just before God without that person having to do any work at all, including the idea that no obedience is necessary. So they invented the idea that Christ's righteousuness is unconditionally transferred/imputed to the sinner and the sinner's sins are unconditionally transferred to Christ.

Much is unbiblical about this idea, for one, if Christ's righteousness were transferred/imputed to you and I then we would be just as perfectly sinless as Christ, yet we are not for we both sin.

But there is another way:
Rom 13:14 Paul said to "put on Christ" not literally of course but a spiritual clothing in Christ. Gal 3:27 “For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ" The Greek word for "put on" is endyo and means "in the sense of sinking into a garment; to invest with clothing (literally or figuratively):—array, clothe (with), endue, have (put) on." (Strong's). It's like putting on a coat, once you put on the coat then you are in the coat.

Hence when one obeys God (obeys God's righteous command to be baptized) then one "puts on Christ" in baptism then one is spiritually clothed in Christ, then one is in Christ, one is then clothed in CHRIST'S perfect righteousness for man by himself apart from Christ could never attain perfect righteousness required to be saved. Yet being clothed in Christ, then God see the Christian as perfect THROUGH CHRIST'S perfect righteousness. This does not mean the Christian will be perfectly sinless but as long as the Christian remains faithful to Christ, he will remain in Christ and remain clothed in Christ's perfect righteousness. Remaining faithful to Christ requires the Christian to repent of his sins, requires the Christian to faithfully continue to "walk in the light" (1 Jn 1:7) whereby the blood of Christ continues to take away all sins. If one becomes unfaithful, one falls from Christ and will no longer be clothed in Christ's perfect righteousness and becomes lost.

So your faith, my faith will not be perfectly sinless to save us but an OBEDIENT faith in obeying God will put us In CHRIST thereby clothing us in Christ's perfect righteousness. Hence it can be said that faith saves, not because our faith is perfectly sinless, but because faith is required to put us into Christ's perfect righteousness. Lack of faith leaves one outside of Christ and lost.

 

[Johann]

It is OUR righteousness that God sees---our being right with Him.

No-this is not correct @GodsGrace -our own righteousness is as filthy rags.
Please forgive me for this rather lengthy post
RIGHTEOUSNESS

"Righteousness" is such a crucial topic that a Bible student must make a personal extensive study of the concept.

In the OT God's character is described as "just" or "righteous" (verb, BDB 842, KB 1003; masculine noun, BDB 841, KB 1004; feminine noun, BDB 842, KB 1006). The Mesopotamian term itself comes from a "river reed" which was used as a construction tool to judge the horizontal straightness of walls and fences. God chose the term to be used metaphorically of His own nature. He is the straight edge (ruler) by which all things are evaluated. This concept asserts God's righteousness as well as His right to judge.

Man was created in the image of God (cf. Gen. 1:26-27; 5:1,3; 9:6). Mankind was created for fellowship with God (i.e., Gen. 3:8). All of creation is a stage or backdrop for God and mankind's interaction. God wanted His highest creation, mankind, to know Him, love Him, serve Him, and be like Him! Mankind's loyalty was tested (cf. Genesis 3) and the original couple failed the test. This resulted in a disruption of the relationship between God and humanity (cf. Rom. 5:12-21).

God promised to repair and restore the fellowship (cf. Gen. 3:15; see Special Topic: YHWH's Eternal Redemptive Plan). He does this through His own will and His own Son. Humans were incapable of restoring the breach (cf. Rom. 1:18-3:20; Revelation 5).

After the Fall, God's first step toward restoration was the concept of covenant based on His invitation and mankind's repentant, faithful, obedient response (cf. Jer. 31:31-34; Ezek. 36:22-38). Because of the Fall, humans were incapable of appropriate action (cf. Rom. 3:21-31; Galatians 3). God Himself had to take the initiative to restore covenant-breaking humans. He did this by

1. declaring mankind righteous through the work of Christ (i.e., forensic righteousness)

2. freely giving mankind righteousness through the work of Christ (i.e., imputed righteousness)

3. providing the indwelling Spirit who produces righteousness (i.e., Christlikeness, the restoration of the image of God) in mankind

4. restoring the fellowship of the Garden of Eden (compare Genesis 1-2 with Revelation 21-22)



However, God requires a covenantal response. God decrees (i.e., freely gives, i.e., Romans 5:8; 6:23) and provides, but humans must respond and continue to respond in

1. repentance

2. faith

3. lifestyle obedience

4. perseverance



Righteousness, therefore, is a covenantal, reciprocal action between God and His highest creation, based on the character of God, the work of Christ, and the enabling of the Spirit, to which each individual must personally and continually respond appropriately. The concept is called "justification by grace through faith" (i.e., Eph. 2:8-9). The concept is revealed in the Gospels, but not in these terms. It is primarily defined by Paul, who uses the Greek term "righteousness" in its various forms over 100 times.

Paul, being a trained rabbi, uses the term dikaiosunē in its Hebrew sense of the term tsaddiq used in the Septuagint, not from Greek literature. In Greek writings the term is connected to someone who conformed to the expectations of Deity and society (i.e., Noah, Job). In the Hebrew sense it is always structured in covenantal terms (see Special Topic: Covenant). YHWH is a just, ethical, moral God. He wants His people to reflect His character. Redeemed mankind becomes a new creature (cf. 2 Cor. 5:17; Gal. 6:15). This newness results in a new lifestyle of godliness (cf. Matthew 5-7; Gal. 5:22-24; James; 1 John). Since Israel was a theocracy there was no clear delineation between the secular (society's norms) and the sacred (God's will). This distinction is expressed in the Hebrew and Greek terms being translated into English as "justice" (relating to society) and "righteousness" (relating to religion).

The gospel (good news) of Jesus is that fallen mankind has been restored to fellowship with God. This has been accomplished through the Father's love, mercy, and grace; the Son's life, death, and resurrection; and the Spirit's wooing and drawing to the gospel. Justification is a free act of God, but it must issue in godliness (Augustine's position, which reflects both the Reformation emphasis on the freeness of the gospel and Roman Catholic emphasis on a changed life of love and faithfulness). For Reformers the term "the righteousness of God" is an objective genitive (i.e., the act of making sinful mankind acceptable to God [positional sanctification], while for the Catholics it is a subjective genitive, which is the process of becoming more like God [experiential progressive sanctification]. In reality it is surely both!!)

In my view all of the Bible from Genesis 4 – Revelation 20 is a record of God's restoring the fellowship of Eden. The Bible starts with God and mankind in fellowship in an earthly setting (cf. Genesis 1-2) and the Bible ends with the same setting (cf. Revelation 21-22). God's image and purpose will be restored!

To document the above discussions note the following selected NT passages illustrating the Greek word group.

1. God is righteous (often connected to God as Judge)

a. Romans 3:26

b. 2 Thessalonians 1:5-6

c. 2 Timothy 4:8

d. Revelation 16:5

2. Jesus is righteous

a. Acts 3:14; 7:52; 22:14 (title of Messiah)

b. Matthew 27:19

c. 1 John 2:1,29; 3:7

3. God's will for His creation is righteousness

a. Leviticus 19:2

b. Matthew 5:48 (cf. 5:17-20)

4. God's means of providing and producing righteousness

a. Romans 3:21-31

b. Romans 4

c. Romans 5:6-11

d. Galatians 3:6-14

5. Given by God

a. Romans 3:24; 6:23

b. 1 Corinthians 1:30

c. Ephesians 2:8-9

6. Received by faith

a. Romans 1:17; 3:22,26; 4:3,5,13; 9:30; 10:4,6,10

b. 2 Corinthians 5:7,21

7. Through acts of the Son

a. Romans 5:21

b. 2 Corinthians 5:21

c. Philippians 2:6-11

8. God's will is that His followers be righteous

a. Matthew 5:3-48; 7:24-27

b. Romans 2:13; 5:1-5; 6:1-23

c. Ephesians 1:4; 2:10

d. 1 Timothy 6:11

e. 2 Timothy 2:22; 3:16

f. 1 John 3:7

g. 1 Peter 2:24

9. God will judge the world by righteousness

a. Acts 17:31

b. 2 Timothy 4:8

Righteousness is a characteristic of God, freely given to sinful mankind through Christ. It is

1. a decree of God

2. a gift of God

3. an act of Christ

4. a life to be lived

But it is also a process of becoming righteous that must be vigorously and steadfastly pursued, which will one day be consummated at the Second Coming. Fellowship with God is restored at salvation but progresses throughout life to become a face-to-face encounter with Him (cf. 1 John 3:2) at death or the Parousia!

Here is a good quote to conclude this discussion. It is taken from Dictionary of Paul and His Letters from IVP

"Calvin, more so than Luther, emphasizes the relational aspect of the righteousness of God. Luther's view of the righteousness of God seems to contain the aspect of acquittal. Calvin emphasizes the marvelous nature of the communication or imparting of God's righteousness to us" (p. 834).



For me the believer's relationship to God has three aspects.

1. the gospel is a person (emphasis of the Eastern Church and Calvin)

2. the gospel is truth (emphasis of Augustine and Luther)

3. the gospel is a changed life (Catholic emphasis)



They are all true and must be held together for a healthy, sound, biblical Christianity. If any one is over emphasized or depreciated, problems occur.

We must welcome Jesus!

We must believe the gospel!

We must pursue Christlikeness!

SPECIAL TOPIC: RIGHTEOUSNESS

Righteousness -- Special Topic by Dr. Bob Utley, professor of hermeneutics (retired).

www.freebiblecommentary.org

Shalom
J.

 

[GodsGrace]

LOL

Ro 14:23 says if you do something you doubt is correct you are CONDEMNED. Why do you deny that?

There are SOOOO many points to address, but I fear it will be a fruitless endeavor--and I don't think you need to know this. Some things are better left unsaid and unknown. Like they say "Sometimes the cure is worse than the disease."

Could you please post Romans 14:23?
It states that if you do something against your conscience it's a SIN....
It does not state that a person will be condemned because this would go against all that the NT teaches.

The NT teaches that if we sin we are forgiven upon asking for forgiveness.
It does not state that if we sin we will be condemned.

 

[GracePeace]

Could you please post Romans 14:23?
It states that if you do something against your conscience it's a SIN....
It does not state that a person will be condemned because this would go against all that the NT teaches.

The NT teaches that if we sin we are forgiven upon asking for forgiveness.
It does not state that if we sin we will be condemned.

Romans 14
23But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.

Sin results in condemnation.

 

[GodsGrace]

No-this is not correct @GodsGrace -our own righteousness is as filthy rags.
Please forgive me for this rather lengthy post
RIGHTEOUSNESS

"Righteousness" is such a crucial topic that a Bible student must make a personal extensive study of the concept.

In the OT God's character is described as "just" or "righteous" (verb, BDB 842, KB 1003; masculine noun, BDB 841, KB 1004; feminine noun, BDB 842, KB 1006). The Mesopotamian term itself comes from a "river reed" which was used as a construction tool to judge the horizontal straightness of walls and fences. God chose the term to be used metaphorically of His own nature. He is the straight edge (ruler) by which all things are evaluated. This concept asserts God's righteousness as well as His right to judge.

Man was created in the image of God (cf. Gen. 1:26-27; 5:1,3; 9:6). Mankind was created for fellowship with God (i.e., Gen. 3:8). All of creation is a stage or backdrop for God and mankind's interaction. God wanted His highest creation, mankind, to know Him, love Him, serve Him, and be like Him! Mankind's loyalty was tested (cf. Genesis 3) and the original couple failed the test. This resulted in a disruption of the relationship between God and humanity (cf. Rom. 5:12-21).

God promised to repair and restore the fellowship (cf. Gen. 3:15; see Special Topic: YHWH's Eternal Redemptive Plan). He does this through His own will and His own Son. Humans were incapable of restoring the breach (cf. Rom. 1:18-3:20; Revelation 5).

After the Fall, God's first step toward restoration was the concept of covenant based on His invitation and mankind's repentant, faithful, obedient response (cf. Jer. 31:31-34; Ezek. 36:22-38). Because of the Fall, humans were incapable of appropriate action (cf. Rom. 3:21-31; Galatians 3). God Himself had to take the initiative to restore covenant-breaking humans. He did this by

1. declaring mankind righteous through the work of Christ (i.e., forensic righteousness)

2. freely giving mankind righteousness through the work of Christ (i.e., imputed righteousness)

3. providing the indwelling Spirit who produces righteousness (i.e., Christlikeness, the restoration of the image of God) in mankind

4. restoring the fellowship of the Garden of Eden (compare Genesis 1-2 with Revelation 21-22)



However, God requires a covenantal response. God decrees (i.e., freely gives, i.e., Romans 5:8; 6:23) and provides, but humans must respond and continue to respond in

1. repentance

2. faith

3. lifestyle obedience

4. perseverance



Righteousness, therefore, is a covenantal, reciprocal action between God and His highest creation, based on the character of God, the work of Christ, and the enabling of the Spirit, to which each individual must personally and continually respond appropriately. The concept is called "justification by grace through faith" (i.e., Eph. 2:8-9). The concept is revealed in the Gospels, but not in these terms. It is primarily defined by Paul, who uses the Greek term "righteousness" in its various forms over 100 times.

Paul, being a trained rabbi, uses the term dikaiosunē in its Hebrew sense of the term tsaddiq used in the Septuagint, not from Greek literature. In Greek writings the term is connected to someone who conformed to the expectations of Deity and society (i.e., Noah, Job). In the Hebrew sense it is always structured in covenantal terms (see Special Topic: Covenant). YHWH is a just, ethical, moral God. He wants His people to reflect His character. Redeemed mankind becomes a new creature (cf. 2 Cor. 5:17; Gal. 6:15). This newness results in a new lifestyle of godliness (cf. Matthew 5-7; Gal. 5:22-24; James; 1 John). Since Israel was a theocracy there was no clear delineation between the secular (society's norms) and the sacred (God's will). This distinction is expressed in the Hebrew and Greek terms being translated into English as "justice" (relating to society) and "righteousness" (relating to religion).

The gospel (good news) of Jesus is that fallen mankind has been restored to fellowship with God. This has been accomplished through the Father's love, mercy, and grace; the Son's life, death, and resurrection; and the Spirit's wooing and drawing to the gospel. Justification is a free act of God, but it must issue in godliness (Augustine's position, which reflects both the Reformation emphasis on the freeness of the gospel and Roman Catholic emphasis on a changed life of love and faithfulness). For Reformers the term "the righteousness of God" is an objective genitive (i.e., the act of making sinful mankind acceptable to God [positional sanctification], while for the Catholics it is a subjective genitive, which is the process of becoming more like God [experiential progressive sanctification]. In reality it is surely both!!)

In my view all of the Bible from Genesis 4 – Revelation 20 is a record of God's restoring the fellowship of Eden. The Bible starts with God and mankind in fellowship in an earthly setting (cf. Genesis 1-2) and the Bible ends with the same setting (cf. Revelation 21-22). God's image and purpose will be restored!

To document the above discussions note the following selected NT passages illustrating the Greek word group.

1. God is righteous (often connected to God as Judge)

a. Romans 3:26

b. 2 Thessalonians 1:5-6

c. 2 Timothy 4:8

d. Revelation 16:5

2. Jesus is righteous

a. Acts 3:14; 7:52; 22:14 (title of Messiah)

b. Matthew 27:19

c. 1 John 2:1,29; 3:7

3. God's will for His creation is righteousness

a. Leviticus 19:2

b. Matthew 5:48 (cf. 5:17-20)

4. God's means of providing and producing righteousness

a. Romans 3:21-31

b. Romans 4

c. Romans 5:6-11

d. Galatians 3:6-14

5. Given by God

a. Romans 3:24; 6:23

b. 1 Corinthians 1:30

c. Ephesians 2:8-9

6. Received by faith

a. Romans 1:17; 3:22,26; 4:3,5,13; 9:30; 10:4,6,10

b. 2 Corinthians 5:7,21

7. Through acts of the Son

a. Romans 5:21

b. 2 Corinthians 5:21

c. Philippians 2:6-11

8. God's will is that His followers be righteous

a. Matthew 5:3-48; 7:24-27

b. Romans 2:13; 5:1-5; 6:1-23

c. Ephesians 1:4; 2:10

d. 1 Timothy 6:11

e. 2 Timothy 2:22; 3:16

f. 1 John 3:7

g. 1 Peter 2:24

9. God will judge the world by righteousness

a. Acts 17:31

b. 2 Timothy 4:8

Righteousness is a characteristic of God, freely given to sinful mankind through Christ. It is

1. a decree of God

2. a gift of God

3. an act of Christ

4. a life to be lived

But it is also a process of becoming righteous that must be vigorously and steadfastly pursued, which will one day be consummated at the Second Coming. Fellowship with God is restored at salvation but progresses throughout life to become a face-to-face encounter with Him (cf. 1 John 3:2) at death or the Parousia!

Here is a good quote to conclude this discussion. It is taken from Dictionary of Paul and His Letters from IVP

"Calvin, more so than Luther, emphasizes the relational aspect of the righteousness of God. Luther's view of the righteousness of God seems to contain the aspect of acquittal. Calvin emphasizes the marvelous nature of the communication or imparting of God's righteousness to us" (p. 834).



For me the believer's relationship to God has three aspects.

1. the gospel is a person (emphasis of the Eastern Church and Calvin)

2. the gospel is truth (emphasis of Augustine and Luther)

3. the gospel is a changed life (Catholic emphasis)



They are all true and must be held together for a healthy, sound, biblical Christianity. If any one is over emphasized or depreciated, problems occur.

We must welcome Jesus!

We must believe the gospel!

We must pursue Christlikeness!

SPECIAL TOPIC: RIGHTEOUSNESS

Righteousness -- Special Topic by Dr. Bob Utley, professor of hermeneutics (retired).

www.freebiblecommentary.org

Shalom
J.

I'll be replying to you and @Ernest T. Bass after dinner.
Both very interesting posts.

 

[GodsGrace]

Romans 14
23But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.

Sin results in condemnation.

I really dislike commentaries GP, but sometimes they come in handy.
Also, Romans 14 is talking about something that may cause a weak Christian to stumble.
It's also speaking about what may or may not be eaten.

Is damned - We apply this word almost exclusively to the future punishment of the wicked in hell. But it is of importance to remember, in reading the Bible, that this is not of necessity its meaning. It means properly to "condemn;" and here it means only that the person who should thus violate the dictates of his conscience would incur guilt, and would be blameworthy in doing it. But it does not affirm that he would inevitably sink to hell. The same construction is to be put on the expression in 1 Corinthians 11:29, "He that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself."
source: Romans 14:23 Commentaries: But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin.

Maybe you read the NT and do not connect each passage with others.
I don't know.
But if I do something with doubt and I'm condemned.
then I could stop being a Christian right now.
The NT cannot have conflicts.
Was John lying when he wrote 1 John 1 and 2?
I don't think so.

 

[GracePeace]

I really dislike commentaries GP, but sometimes they come in handy.
Also, Romans 14 is talking about something that may cause a weak Christian to stumble.
It's also speaking about what may or may not be eaten.

Is damned - We apply this word almost exclusively to the future punishment of the wicked in hell. But it is of importance to remember, in reading the Bible, that this is not of necessity its meaning. It means properly to "condemn;" and here it means only that the person who should thus violate the dictates of his conscience would incur guilt, and would be blameworthy in doing it. But it does not affirm that he would inevitably sink to hell. The same construction is to be put on the expression in 1 Corinthians 11:29, "He that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself."
source: Romans 14:23 Commentaries: But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin.

Maybe you read the NT and do not connect each passage with others.
I don't know.
But if I do something with doubt and I'm condemned.
then I could stop being a Christian right now.
The NT cannot have conflicts.
Was John lying when he wrote 1 John 1 and 2?
I don't think so.

1 Co 11 refers to eating and drinking the Lord's supper. It refers to eating and drinking unworthily.
Ro 14:23 refers to doing ANYTHING AT ALL contrary to your convictions (14:5)--because "God's righteousness is revealed from faith to faith" (Ro 1:17).

 

[Grailhunter]

LOL

Ro 14:23 says if you do something you doubt is correct you are CONDEMNED. Why do you deny that?

There are SOOOO many points to address, but I fear it will be a fruitless endeavor--and I don't think you need to know this. Some things are better left unsaid and unknown. Like they say "Sometimes the cure is worse than the disease."

Romans 14:23 states that anyone who has doubts about eating something is condemned if they eat it, because their eating is not from faith, and everything that is not from faith is sin.

Colossians 2:16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths,

These two scriptures do not contradict each other.