JUSTIFICATION: Before God or Before Man? Examining James chapter 2

[Titus]

Here is a quote from Facebook that I recently came across:

View attachment 57855

Dan, this is not all you said.

so baptism was not necessary for salvation for the thief on the cross

This is where you have misunderstood.
We dont teach this.

Faith only folks say "what about the thief on the cross he wasn't baptized"

My position is you cannot make that claim because the Bible doesn't say if he was or was not baptized.

During the lifetime of the thief he would have been required to be baptized by John.

So, yes he was required to be baptized.

Was he? Only God knows and the thief himself.

Heres why the thief is not our example for salvation today.

He died under the old covenant.
We are not commanded to be baptized in John's baptism.

We are in the new covenant AFTER the Death, burial, ressurection of Christ.
So we are commanded to be baptized in Jesus' baptism.

The thief did not get saved by the gospel of Christ, 1Corinthians 15:1-4.

He never believed in Jesus' ressurection.
He was dead before Jesus rose from the dead.

So he was not saved by Jesus' new testament gospel.

We must believe in the death, burial and ressurection then be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ to be saved.

The thief was never commanded to do what we are told to do.
He is not our example for salvation today.

If he wasn't baptized he sinned.
Jesus forgave his sins on the cross.
But that is speculation and so it's wrong to even take a position one way or the other.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Matthew 3:11 - As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. Was that natural H20 that John baptized people in? Do you understand the difference between being baptized with water and being baptized with the Holy Spirit?

Your repetitious straw man arguments, insults and nonsense are getting old.

Show me just one verse in Scripture that specifically says, "whoever is not baptized will be condemned." I'll be waiting. In the meantime read John 3:18 - John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

You seem to have more faith in water baptism to save you than you do in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ! Your church should be labeled a "water baptism cult." When I had temporarily attended the CoC several years, it seemed like water baptism was just about the only thing they talked about! Reminds me of the Jews obsession with circumcision.

This question was in regard to John's authority to baptize. John was widely revered by the people and the Chief priests and elders of the people could not deny John's legitimacy without an unpopular response from the people. They quickly came to realize that Jesus has put them in a no-win situation. If they said John's authority and message was from heaven, Jesus can accuse them of ignoring the messenger of God. The alternative, to claim John was a fraudulent teacher, of men, would be very unpopular and go against their real motive of maintaining power. (Matthew 21:26) What seemed like an easy way to trap Jesus ended up becoming a snare for these men. Praise Jesus!

BTW That question had nothing to do with salvation by water baptism.

some people just can not get out of God's way and just allow God to save them..

Its sad.

 

[Titus]

some people just can not get out of God's way and just allow God to save them..

Its sad.

Hi, haven't seen you for good while!

 

[Titus]

I don't appreciate your slander. You don't seem to understand Jesus' question in Matthew 21:25. The question was in regard to John's authority to baptize The legitimacy of John's ministry as being ordained by God in heaven and not about which baptism is being performed (Spirit baptism) or water baptism.

You are really good at explaining away what the Scriptures plainly say,

Matthew 21:25,
- the baptism of John where was it from? From heaven or from men

You deny the context and make up a story when Jesus asks them about John's baptism.
To deny Jesus is asking about baptism is to deny what it says word for word.

You'll say just about anything to get water baptism out of Gods will and put it on man as nothing but a physical act.

Its spiritual because God decreed it.
Its spiritual because It is for the forgiveness of sins

Amazing you can't see what these verses clearly say.

 

[Verily]

Dan, this is not all you said.


This is where you have misunderstood.
We dont teach this.

Faith only folks say "what about the thief on the cross he wasn't baptized"

My position is you cannot make that claim because the Bible doesn't say if he was or was not baptized.

During the lifetime of the thief he would have been required to be baptized by John.

So, yes he was required to be baptized.

Was he? Only God knows and the thief himself.

Heres why the thief is not our example for salvation today.

He died under the old covenant.
We are not commanded to be baptized in John's baptism.

We are in the new covenant AFTER the Death, burial, ressurection of Christ.
So we are commanded to be baptized in Jesus' baptism.

The thief did not get saved by the gospel of Christ, 1Corinthians 15:1-4.

He never believed in Jesus' ressurection.
He was dead before Jesus rose from the dead.

So he was not saved by Jesus' new testament gospel.

We must believe in the death, burial and ressurection then be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ to be saved.

The thief was never commanded to do what we are told to do.
He is not our example for salvation today.

If he wasn't baptized he sinned.
Jesus forgave his sins on the cross.
But that is speculation and so it's wrong to even take a position one way or the other.

The one thief confessed that his deeds werent right, he confessed God, he confessed Jesus as Lord and acknowledged on the cross that he knew that Christ would come into his kingdom demonstrates he believed his kingdom was after his death.


Luke 23:39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.

Luke 23:40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

Luke 23:41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

Luke 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

There can be something that hinders baptism, in certain circumstances, even though he says here

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Its he that believeth not is who shall be damned (more specifically)

Like with the eunuch

Acts 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

So Philip informed him of water baptism, but also said

Acts 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Belief had to come before he was baptized, but something hindered that, its good to know Jesus said,

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

But he did say to the thief

Luke 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

 

[mailmandan]

some people just can not get out of God's way and just allow God to save them..

Its sad.

It's very sad and it's a shame that human pride will not allow these folks to trust in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation. Their hands are full of their works and they will not let go in order to receive Christ through faith.

 

[mailmandan]

You are really good at explaining away what the Scriptures plainly say,

Matthew 21:25,
- the baptism of John where was it from? From heaven or from men

You deny the context and make up a story when Jesus asks them about John's baptism.
To deny Jesus is asking about baptism is to deny what it says word for word.

You'll say just about anything to get water baptism out of Gods will and put it on man as nothing but a physical act.

Its spiritual because God decreed it.
Its spiritual because It is for the forgiveness of sins

Amazing you can't see what these verses clearly say.

 

[Titus]

It's very sad and it's a shame that human pride will not allow these folks to trust in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation. Their hands are full of their works and they will not let go in order to receive Christ through faith.

I will obey your gospel if you can be sincere and honest by answering my question straight forward.

If you are sealed with the Holy Spirit the moment you believe alone. Then can someone not obey any other commandment in the new testament and go to heaven?
1John 3:23-24, only believe in Jesus.

Dont tell me he will because his hearts been changed. Those works are not required to be saved.

I'm not asking about works he will do.
I'm asking can he get to heaven if he obeys only 1 commandment, belief, 1John 3:23-24

What say ye

 

[Titus]

Agreed, you came on here by your own will. I did not request for you to come on here.
It's you who chose to debate me. You came to my OP.

I'm simply defending my teaching.
You're free to leave any time you like.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

It's very sad and it's a shame that human pride will not allow these folks to trust in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation. Their hands are full of their works and they will not let go in order to receive Christ through faith.

if they had even an inkling of the danger they were in (we all are in based on our sin). they would become like the tax collector. Sadly to many would rather be like the pharisee