John Darby

[Keraz]

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Then there is a second resurrection after the 1,000 years are over.

It seems that you are the one who fails basic English grammar.

Rev 3:10 say Jesus will keep us FROM the GT.

FROM, does not mean removal. Many scriptures say how the Lord will protect His people through the tough times ahead.

No Christian wants to face the reign of Antichrist. I think it will largely be confined to his own empire in Europe. Christians have no say so in the matter, just as the Early Church had no say so in their living under Roman control.

Bible prophecy is clear; The Anti-Christ; the 'beast of Daniel 7:23-25 and Revelation 13:1-8 say he will control the whole earth.

Darby himself was apparently a godly man. But he got very angry when Christians disagreed with his Pretrib. This doesn't sit well with me. Christians need to exhibit the fruit of love even when brothers and sisters disagree with them.

As do 'rapture to heaven' believers now.
People who grip onto the false and unbiblical theory of being taken to heaven, get very upset when they are presented with verses like John 3:13. The prophesies plainly state: we must endure until the end. Matthew 24:13, Revelation 14:12

 

[Randy Kluth]

Bible prophecy is clear; The Anti-Christ; the 'beast of Daniel 7:23-25 and Revelation 13:1-8 say he will control the whole earth.

I don't think this is as clear as you'd like to believe. Things contained in those verses can mean different things, depending on the context. For example, I believe the context limits the empire of the Beast to only 10 nations in Europe. This is not a world-wide dominion. To have the world acknowledge your superpower status is not the same thing as having unquestioned universal control over the entire earth!

Rev 18.2 The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority. 3 One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was filled with wonder and followed the beast. 4 People worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, “Who is like the beast? Who can wage war against it?”

The Devil is not omnipresent. He has a "throne." This means he cannot rule over everything in the universe, nor over all the earth. It does mean, however, that his influence is powerful and extends throughout the earth. It is a limited domain with great power--not universal control over all nations and peoples on earth.

Rev 13.5 The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months. 6 It opened its mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. 7 It was given power to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. 8 All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.

It should be apparent to you that if the Beast is "waging war" against God's holy people that he does not exercise complete dominion. It is different to say that your power is overwhelming and has unchallenged authority than saying your power literally controls every aspect of every society. For example, ancient Rome had unchallenged power in Europe and yet did not control all of the barbarian tribes in Europe.

To obtain "worship" from people in all nations is not the same thing as saying all people in every nation serve the Beast in a politically subservient way. People can worship the Beast by admiring him, fearing him, or loving him. As I said, if his domain is limited to only 10 nations, then the other 200 or so nations of the world simply have admirers or co-conspirators, rather than people who are *in* his domain.

 

[Truther]

No Christian wants to face the reign of Antichrist. I think it will largely be confined to his own empire in Europe. Christians have no say so in the matter, just as the Early Church had no say so in their living under Roman control.

"Taken out of the way" is a difficult verse to interpret for many. But for 1800 years it was never applied in a Pretrib sense. I personally agree with the Church Fathers that it refers to the imperial tradition of Roman government, preventing the rise of Antichrist. According to Dan 7, Antichrist does not come to power until he overthrows 3 kings. So the current state of European government prevents the rise of Antichrist. It will be "taken out of the way" at the proper time.

John Darby can be looked at in an online encyclopedia. He's been dead a long time, so we know his teaching through those who have carried on his teaching. Dallas Theological Seminary in Texas is a big source of his teaching. The Calvary Chapels are another big source of his teaching. There were Prophecy Conferences early in the 20th century that delivered his teaching to many revival groups. It has seemed that every revived evangelical group has carried Pretrib teaching. But I believe that eventually, it will die out, because it has no foundation in the Scriptures. And it has zero historical depth. It is pure sensationalism, fit only for the movies and fiction novels.

Darby himself was apparently a godly man. But he got very angry when Christians disagreed with his Pretrib. This doesn't sit well with me. Christians need to exhibit the fruit of love even when brothers and sisters disagree with them.

No way, Randy.

The antichrist will take over the entire modern world, just as the Bible says.

This is exactly why the 3 angels, especially the 3rd angel in Rev 14 tells folks of every nation, family and tongue to refuse the mark.

You can't read regionality into this passage, nor the others that say he will dominate the earth.

This guy is not Trump, or any big name ever come to the world.

This guy will intimidate the nations with events like fire coming down from heaven, etc.

He will bring the globalist, new world order.

Our youth are fully groomed for this and will easily except it when it is finally implemented.

 

[Truther]

It seems that you are the one who fails basic English grammar.

FROM, does not mean removal. Many scriptures say how the Lord will protect His people through the tough times ahead.

Bible prophecy is clear; The Anti-Christ; the 'beast of Daniel 7:23-25 and Revelation 13:1-8 say he will control the whole earth.

As do 'rapture to heaven' believers now.
People who grip onto the false and unbiblical theory of being taken to heaven, get very upset when they are presented with verses like John 3:13. The prophesies plainly state: we must endure until the end. Matthew 24:13, Revelation 14:12

What does FROM mean, Keraz?

Would you keep your kids from playing on a freeway or take them across it?

Would God take His saints FROM the GT or take them through it?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

FROM, does not mean removal. Many scriptures say how the Lord will protect His people through the tough times ahead.

I guess you never read carefully the book of Revelation then. for the believers are getting killed and suffer pretty much all teh 14 trumpet and bowl judgments as most of them fallupon ALL who dwell on the face of teh earth. Listening to you and looking at the bible- it would seem God does a lousy job of "keeping" the saints protected!

It seems that you are the one who fails basic English grammar.

Maybre! but I know enough of it to see the bible speaks of one resurrection where all whp participate in that are called holy and blessed and the second death has no authority over them.

The i see another resurrection 1,000 years later as is written. Given the ones are holy and blessed, even a grammar school English teacher will tell you that those in the next or second resurrection are not holy and blessed and the second death has authority over them! YOu have to allegorize these to fit your agenda. I changed my agenda to fit what Scripture says a s written here!

 

[Billy Evmur]

We all know that John Darby came up with the pre-tribulation rapture.

But did you know that Darby also

Invented electricity,
Wrote the consitution,
Came up with the theory of relativity,
The law of gravity
And the recipe for maple syrup.

In fact, if we look further back in history you will see that John Darby probably discovered fire and invented the wheel too.

If you know the story of Bethesda and Darby's spat with the saintly George Muller [which you may google] you will discover certain facts about JND which make him an unsavoury character.

His pretrib rapture doctrine was thrown out by every British theologian and he left Britain under a cloud. It is unfortunate that his doctrines took off like rocket in America.

 

[Truther]

If you know the story of Bethesda and Darby's spat with the saintly George Muller [which you may google] you will discover certain facts about JND which make him an unsavoury character.

His pretrib rapture doctrine was thrown out by every British theologian and he left Britain under a cloud. It is unfortunate that his doctrines took off like rocket in America.

Americans are smarter.

 

[Billy Evmur]

Americans are smarter.

They are also very susceptible to false doctrine, for reference Mormonism, Adventism, JWs and a whole host of others.

Howbeit Darby copied his doctrine from Edward Irving a Scottish man, he got it from a 15 year old schoolgirl.

 

[teamventure]

If you know the story of Bethesda and Darby's spat with the saintly George Muller [which you may google] you will discover certain facts about JND which make him an unsavoury character.

His pretrib rapture doctrine was thrown out by every British theologian and he left Britain under a cloud. It is unfortunate that his doctrines took off like rocket in America.

You forgot about the part where Darby invented maple syrup.

 

[Truther]

They are also very susceptible to false doctrine, for reference Mormonism, Adventism, JWs and a whole host of others.

Howbeit Darby copied his doctrine from Edward Irving a Scottish man, he got it from a 15 year old schoolgirl.

I see now.

The French and British are smarter than us.

They don't have anything to do with the RCC and never did.

Interesting.

Question, why did the US constitution insist on the separation of Church and state?

 

[Billy Evmur]

I see now.

The French and British are smarter than us.

They don't have anything to do with the RCC and never did.

Interesting.

Question, why did the US constitution insist on the separation of Church and state?

Not at all, there are just x 5 times more Americans than Brits therefore x 5 times as many twits

 

[Truther]

Not at all, there are just x 5 times more Americans than Brits therefore x 5 times as many twits

And 5 times more in disagreement...LOL

 

[Billy Evmur]

And 5 times more in disagreement...LOL

I was saved through an American ministry so I have only love for my American brethren. never-the-less they have the rapture doctrine wrong.

 

[Enoch111]

Howbeit Darby copied his doctrine from Edward Irving a Scottish man, he got it from a 15 year old schoolgirl.

This is just a tired old myth that continues to be propagated to put down Darby. Have you actually read what J. N. Darby had to say about the Pretribulation Rapture? Here is a brief passage to show that anti-Darby propaganda is just total nonsense and should be ignored:

"...That is, we have two things (which from other scriptures also we know to be distinct, exactly in this way, Christ’s coming, and the manifestation of it; for when He appears, we shall appear with Him—hence we must be with Him before even He appears at all, yet at His coming), the coming of Christ and the public epiphany of His presence, with one of which the saints are directly connected, by being gathered together to Him; with the other, the day, because at His appearing He will execute judgment against the ungodly. They will be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power. But He will come to be glorified in His saints, and admired in all them that believe; that is, they will be in the display of this glory in that day. They will appear with Him in glory—be like Him. Now it is quite certain they will not appear with Him when they are caught up to meet Him in the air. Thus it is not merely particular expressions, though these are clear and forcible, but the bearing, and object, and course of reasoning of the whole chapter, which shews the distinction of the rapture of the saints before Christ appears, and the coming of the day when He is admired in them...."

It is not just J. N. Darby who arrived at this conclusion. There are millions of Christians who interpret Scripture is this way.

 

[Billy Evmur]

This is just a tired old myth that continues to be propagated to put down Darby. Have you actually read what J. N. Darby had to say about the Pretribulation Rapture? Here is a brief passage to show that anti-Darby propaganda is just total nonsense and should be ignored:

"...That is, we have two things (which from other scriptures also we know to be distinct, exactly in this way, Christ’s coming, and the manifestation of it; for when He appears, we shall appear with Him—hence we must be with Him before even He appears at all, yet at His coming), the coming of Christ and the public epiphany of His presence, with one of which the saints are directly connected, by being gathered together to Him; with the other, the day, because at His appearing He will execute judgment against the ungodly. They will be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power. But He will come to be glorified in His saints, and admired in all them that believe; that is, they will be in the display of this glory in that day. They will appear with Him in glory—be like Him. Now it is quite certain they will not appear with Him when they are caught up to meet Him in the air. Thus it is not merely particular expressions, though these are clear and forcible, but the bearing, and object, and course of reasoning of the whole chapter, which shews the distinction of the rapture of the saints before Christ appears, and the coming of the day when He is admired in them...."

It is not just J. N. Darby who arrived at this conclusion. There are millions of Christians who interpret Scripture is this way.

Yes yes JND was a clever man, he was also crafty, this is a crafty re-working of Miss Macdonald's doctrine which she received by means [ supposedly] of direct communication, God told her and she wrote it all down. How that He will come secretly for His saints, but only those who are watching and waiting.

JND craftily changed the word apstastses in 2.Thessalonians. 2. from meaning rebellion as the church has always believed to departure. He was an Oxford University man, he knew that was dishonest.

JND went wrong ... it is shown in the "Bethesda" debacle, in his treatment of Newton and especially in his treatment of the saintly George Muller of Bristol. He was a clever man, he was undoubtedly a saint, he was a leader ... but he went wrong.

 

[Truther]

I was saved through an American ministry so I have only love for my American brethren. never-the-less they have the rapture doctrine wrong.

You do not believe in the rapture?

 

[Billy Evmur]

You do not believe in the rapture?

I DO believe in the rapture, I don't believe in a "secret" rapture. The dead shall rise first then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them to meet the Lord in the clouds. "Every eye shall see Him"

 

[Truther]

I DO believe in the rapture, I don't believe in a "secret" rapture. The dead shall rise first then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them to meet the Lord in the clouds. "Every eye shall see Him"

you mean "pre trib"?

 

[Billy Evmur]

I feel obliged to tell out on JND

When he developed his end-times doctrine in the early 19th century it must have seemed a long, long way off still, there had been no world wars and crucially Israel was not yet re-established as a nation. But in our day we have seen these things and even the slowest of us can see that the time is drawing nigh. We MUST get this doctrine right.

Folks are looking for the rapture, escape they think from trials about to fall upon all them that dwell on the face of the earth. Escape from the great persecution aka the great tribulation, escape from the coming world rule of Antichrist.

These things happen before the coming of the Lord.

 

[Truther]

I feel obliged to tell out on JND

When he developed his end-times doctrine in the early 19th century it must have seemed a long, long way off still, there had been no world wars and crucially Israel was not yet re-established as a nation. But in our day we have seen these things and even the slowest of us can see that the time is drawing nigh. We MUST get this doctrine right.

Folks are looking for the rapture, escape they think from trials about to fall upon all them that dwell on the face of the earth. Escape from the great persecution aka the great tribulation, escape from the coming world rule of Antichrist.

These things happen before the coming of the Lord.

I teach dispensationalism, but I modified it.