John Darby

[Keraz]

That is not correct. With reference to Revelation 6:13, the only true interpretation must be a LITERAL interpretation, since Jesus Himself made that meaning literal. In all the accounts of the Olivet Discourse, everything related to the "shaking" of the heavenly bodies is literal.

The Greek word is 'aster', [plural] meaning any celestial object; translated as 'stars', but since 1611, when the KJV was printed, we now have satellites that also are celestial objects.
That all the prophesies about those 'stars' falling, are plural; like many falling as figs shaken from a tree, gives two possibilities; a meteor shower, or our hundreds of satellites. I believe satellites fit the descriptions best.

You have made the mistake of mixing up what will happen at Jesus' Return with the Sixth Seal. Two different events, proved by how the moon will shine red at the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster, but shall not give its light; at the glorious Return.

 

[farouk]

@Naomi25 I do enjoy J N Darby's hymns; one of them is, 'And is it so? we shall be like Thy Son'; another is, 'Rise my soul, behold 'tis Jesus'.

 

[Naomi25]

@Naomi25 I do enjoy J N Darby's hymns; one of them is, 'And is it so? we shall be like Thy Son'; another is, 'Rise my soul, behold 'tis Jesus'.

You know, I didn't know Darby had written songs until I saw, not that long ago, posted by someone on here. Its interesting, isn't it, that he's really only known for one legacy. I wonder if its the legacy he would have wanted, or if he'd had preferred to be known for the songs. It makes you wonder about your own legacy a little. We tend to have these ideas about ourselves....I do wonder how much of my own self image is erroneous. Thank goodness we can hide under the shade of Christ's legacy, when it comes to what really matters!

 

[farouk]

You know, I didn't know Darby had written songs until I saw, not that long ago, posted by someone on here. Its interesting, isn't it, that he's really only known for one legacy. I wonder if its the legacy he would have wanted, or if he'd had preferred to be known for the songs. It makes you wonder about your own legacy a little. We tend to have these ideas about ourselves....I do wonder how much of my own self image is erroneous. Thank goodness we can hide under the shade of Christ's legacy, when it comes to what really matters!

@Naomi25 I do appreciate his hymns, anyway; and as you may guess also I do appreciate the dispensational distinctives which he also pointed out between Israel and the church in Scripture!

 

[Naomi25]

@Naomi25 I do appreciate his hymns, anyway; and as you may guess also I do appreciate the dispensational distinctives which he also pointed out between Israel and the church in Scripture!

That's fine! I don't see it, but I know plenty of fine, fine people who do. I've actually been digging into Historic Premillennialism over the last couple of months. It's still not Dispensationalism, but still some distance away from Amillennialism. I'm finding it interesting...there are many, many good points, that are causing me to stop and wonder. Who knows where God may lead me. I don't much care, as long as its him doing the leading and I land on his truth.

 

[farouk]

That's fine! I don't see it, but I know plenty of fine, fine people who do. I've actually been digging into Historic Premillennialism over the last couple of months. It's still not Dispensationalism, but still some distance away from Amillennialism. I'm finding it interesting...there are many, many good points, that are causing me to stop and wonder. Who knows where God may lead me. I don't much care, as long as its him doing the leading and I land on his truth.

@Naomi25 I always like a hermeneutic approach that takes the reader where Scripture by the Spirit graciously leads - this is true exegesis - rather than reading into Scripture what someone else's system may be - this is eisegesis...

 

[Naomi25]

@Naomi25 I always like a hermeneutic approach that takes the reader where Scripture by the Spirit graciously leads - this is true exegesis - rather than reading into Scripture what someone else's system may be - this is eisegesis...

Absolutely, but...this is not always simple. For example, the hermeneutical approach for Amillennialists...covenantal theologians, is actually quite different from Premillinnialist...so, to truly understand the 'arguments' of the Premillinnialist, I've almost had to un-teach myself to think one way and look at it from another way. It's been...difficult but very interesting. And...I think the undeniable truth is that both systems have areas where they shine and you just have to go: "wow, yes, that just makes absolute biblical sense." But then in other areas there are just big questions that don't seem to fit. And the problem with perhaps 'meshing' them, so there is the strengths from both, is that the hermeneutical groundwork is just too different.
I don't know...much, much better minds than mine have no doubt gone over this ground before me and failed. so I don't know what hope I have!!

 

[farouk]

@Naomi25 I do like Biblical and contextual word studies and historical theology - learning what was believed by whom and when...rather than some of implications of systematic theology, which can develop into reading someone's system into Scripture: and it's interesting that Melanchthon and Turretin were influenced by the style of the Medieval Scholasticism; in Melanchthon's case, consciously.

 

[farouk]

Absolutely, but...this is not always simple. For example, the hermeneutical approach for Amillennialists...covenantal theologians, is actually quite different from Premillinnialist...so, to truly understand the 'arguments' of the Premillinnialist, I've almost had to un-teach myself to think one way and look at it from another way. It's been...difficult but very interesting. And...I think the undeniable truth is that both systems have areas where they shine and you just have to go: "wow, yes, that just makes absolute biblical sense." But then in other areas there are just big questions that don't seem to fit. And the problem with perhaps 'meshing' them, so there is the strengths from both, is that the hermeneutical groundwork is just too different.
I don't know...much, much better minds than mine have no doubt gone over this ground before me and failed. so I don't know what hope I have!!

@Naomi25 A good principle is indeed found in 1 Thessalonians 5.21: "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." :)

 

[Naomi25]

@Naomi25 I do like Biblical and contextual word studies and historical theology - learning what was believed by whom and when...rather than some of implications of systematic theology, which can develop into reading someone's system into Scripture: and it's interesting that Melanchthon and Turretin were influenced by the style of the Medieval Scholasticism; n Melanchthon's case, consciously.

I'll have to take your word for that! I think reading the Church Fathers is good and fascinating, but I so don't have the time for it! I'm so very glad you get value and worth from it! I think what has gone before us matters.

 

[farouk]

I'll have to take your word for that! I think reading the Church Fathers is good and fascinating, but I so don't have the time for it! I'm so very glad you get value and worth from it! I think what has gone before us matters.

Technically the Schoolmen and Melanchthon were post-Patristic, but I take your general point. Often styles of doing theology matter more than people realize, also...

 

[VictoryinJesus]

That all the prophesies about those 'stars' falling, are plural; like many falling as figs shaken from a tree, gives two possibilities; a meteor shower, or our hundreds of satellites. I believe satellites fit the descriptions best.

‘...shaken from a tree.’
Kind of visual...is a tree shaken...for ‘it waxed great’ even to the host of heaven, and it cast down some of the host and the stars to the ground, and stamped on them. Daniel 8:10

Daniel 8:11-13 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down. [12] And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered. [13] Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden (stamped) under foot?

Curious how satellites are ‘stamped on them’, or ‘trodden under foot’. what do satellites have to do with any of the above? Or why is it necessary for it to be satellites ...or actual stars cast down and stamped ‘trodden’ under foot? 2 Corinthians 11:13-14 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. [14] And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

 

[Keraz]

‘...shaken from a tree.’
Kind of visual...is a tree shaken...for ‘it waxed great’ even to the host of heaven, and it cast down some of the host and the stars to the ground, and stamped on them. Daniel 8:10

Daniel 8:11-13 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down. [12] And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered. [13] Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden (stamped) under foot?

Curious how satellites are ‘stamped on them’, or ‘trodden under foot’. what do satellites have to do with any of the above? Or why is it necessary for it to be satellites ...or actual stars cast down and stamped ‘trodden’ under foot? 2 Corinthians 11:13-14 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. [14] And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

The Sixth Seal event and what is prophesied in Daniel 8:11-13 are not related.
The 'stars' of Dan 8, refers to angels.

Who owns our orbit: Just how many satellites are there in space? There are nearly 6,000 satellites circling the Earth, but only 40% are operational. Quote; google info.
It is a known fact that the pressure from matter sent out from the sun, does force satellites down to lower orbits and eventually causes them to crash back to earth. This is another proof that the Lord will use a Coronal Mass ejection to literally fulfil His terrible Day of fiery wrath.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

The Sixth Seal event and what is prophesied in Daniel 8:11-13 are not related.
The 'stars' of Dan 8, refers to angels.

thank you for clarifying. It helps.

 

[farouk]

@Naomi25 Hi there! hope you guys had a good Christmas!

So have you read any J N Darby lately?

 

[Davy]

We all know that John Darby came up with the pre-tribulation rapture.

But did you know that Darby also

Invented electricity,
Wrote the consitution,
Came up with the theory of relativity,
The law of gravity
And the recipe for maple syrup.

In fact, if we look further back in history you will see that John Darby probably discovered fire and invented the wheel too.

You think he may have been an incarnation of Jesus Christ too? I mean his followers sure treat him as such the way they believe on him!

 

[Naomi25]

@Naomi25 Hi there! hope you guys had a good Christmas!

So have you read any J N Darby lately?

Hi! We did, thank you...hope you did as well.
I can’t say that I ever read any Darby, to be honest. He’s obviously well known in eschatological circles.
I’d....probably have to say that I haven’t pursued reading him because it doesn’t hold much weight with me whether or not he did “come up with” dispensationalism. We know that truths can be lost to the church and found later on (the Reformation), so theologically we can’t discard that idea. For me, judging whether or not a doctrine is sound hinges entirely on biblical proof. Certainly reading church fathers and scholars can be enlightening and interesting, but, as I think we’ve discussed before, I don’t read many church father’s writing. Maybe I’ll branch out when I have more time or as I get older. Or, more likely, as I find them on audible! I so often listen to my books while I work...multitasking!!

 

[Keraz]

So have you read any J N Darby lately?

It is a fruitless exercise to read any of the Bible prophecy expositors up until now.
Daniel 12:4 & 9 tell us the Prophetic Word is sealed until the time of the end. So there is no way anyone from the early church fathers until today, could have the truth of what God plans for our future.
Now, as we are so close to the end times, a few will understand. Daniel 12:10

 

[GISMYS_7]

Believe God's Word =Wonderful Truth of the Very Near Rapture (Catching Up of All Believers)!! Those Who Died in Christ ===1 THESS. 4:13-18 NASB
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Thenwe who are alive and remain will be ""caught up"" together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.===caught up "is" the rapture!!
1 Corinthians 15:51-58 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “Death is swallowed up in victory. 55 O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?” 56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; 57 but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your toil is not in vain in the Lord.

For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;21 who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself. Philippians 3:20-21

 

[Billy Evmur]

Paul came up with the rapture in 1 Thes 4(as he quoted Jesus in Matt 24).

Darby was not from the 1st century, nor was he personally acquainted with Paul.

Get those facts straight.

... but he did come up with the pre-tribulation rap