John Darby

[Naomi25]

Thanks, you have explained it all from your AMillennium viewpoint.
I reject that theory, for the very good reason: the Revelation 20 narrative states it will only be after the 1000 years of Jesus and the resurrected Trib Martyrs rule and King Jesus' reign and the final Judgment, that immortality is conferred.

I think all we can do, as individuals, is arrive at a place where we believe scripture is most logical.
For my behalf, there have been many worthy efforts that present a convincing argument that Revelation is not presented in a strictly chronological order. I do not rule out that possibility of course, but it means that I do not like to draw my "timeline" of end time events only from Revelation. And when I go to the gospels and epistles, I see that, indeed, the 'order' in Revelation is not, perhaps, how we should read it. Let me show you.


...and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels. Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear. -Matthew 13:39–43

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.... “But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only. For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one left.....
But if that wicked servant says to himself, ‘My master is delayed,’ and begins to beat his fellow servants and eats and drinks with drunkards, the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know and will cut him in pieces and put him with the hypocrites. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. -Matthew 24:29–31,36–41,48–51

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world....“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.....
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” -Matthew 25:31–34,41,46

But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death....When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:
“Death is swallowed up in victory.” -1 Corinthians 15:23–26,54


For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.-1 Thessalonians 4:15–17

Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need to have anything written to you. For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. -1 Thessalonians 5:1–2

Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,....
And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. -2 Thessalonians 2:1–3,8

They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.” For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly....
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed. -2 Peter 3:4–7,10

So, those are all the 'major' verses. Not only do we see that they are all described in similar terms "coming", "will come" (which in greek still tell us the same: "to come, coming, to come, be present"), but we see other overlaps as well. The 'day of the Lord', which comes 'like a thief' in 2 Peter 3, when the heavens pass away...surely a reference to the beginning of eternity, is the same 'day of the Lord, which comes like a thief' in 1 Thess 5:1-2, which is a passage most love to use as a Rapture passage. Regardless of whether the Rapture is pre-tribulation or post, if it IS the same one talked about in Peter, where the heavens and earth are burned up, there's a problem right there. Peter also talks about this event being 'the day of destruction and judgment'.
When we look at the idea of 'judgement' and resurrection, we have another problem. Because multiple verses place them together as well. Matt 13 tells us that the 'angels' gather both good and bad 'grains' "at the end of the age". Now, I suppose it depends on how you view the 'ages', but the parable clearly states that the 'field is the world' and that when the 'bad seed' is gathered, it is thrown into 'the fiery furnace where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth'. Where else do we see this phrase used and how? Jesus uses it often, but above, specifically in Matt 24:51, where it is clearly linked to Christ's coming 'on the clouds' to gather his elect from the four corners of the globe. Some people, I believe, prefer to separate it, but the Olivet discourse is, well a discourse, and the passage says "concerning THAT day and hour...the one he'd just spoken of, his coming and gathering of his elect...AFTER the tribulation. So, we conclude that this event, both the gathering of the elect and the 'catching by surprise' of the wicked, is a single event. This is further strengthen by Mat 25, where another mention of the wicked suffering the fate of fire is mentioned. We're told that AT Christ's coming, he will gather ALL nations and separate them. Their destinations? Eternal life, or eternal punishment...eternal punishment, no less, in the fire "prepared for the devil and his angels". That's the lake of fire.
That's when we come to 1 Cor 15, and see that AT Christ's return, when all these events take place, that this is the final enemy defeated...death. It simply, outright, tells us so. And IF death, being the last enemy, is defeated by our Rapture and resurrected bodies AT Christ's return, then the logical conclusion leads us to the events of Rev 20 where death is thrown into the lake of fire.
That is why I read Rev 20 as I do. Because the rest of the NT demands it of me.

But, I concede many do not.

 

[Naomi25]

This sequence is logical and sensible. Only during Eternity can humans have immortality.
Looking at 1 Corinthians 15:23 in Interlineal Scripture; the Greek does not say;... at His coming, but: in His presence. Which will be at the GWT Judgment. To God; just a 'day' later.

Couple of problems I see with your ideas here. The first is...it doesn't actually say anywhere in 1 Cor 15 that God will use his 'a day is like a thousand years etc' thing. That is purely an insert by you.
The second is, 'in his presence' instead of 'at his coming' doesn't make a great deal of difference. The Interlineal study shows they are basically from the same root:

ἐν τῇ παρουσίᾳ αὐτοῦ
en: in, on, at, by, with
ho, hé, to: the
parousia: a coming, presence
autos: he, she, it, they, them, same

As we can't HAVE Christ's physical presence without his 'coming' the two are inexplicably linked. The passage is still, ultimately, saying that when we have Christ's 'presence or coming' THAT is when we receive our promised 'firstfruits' bodies. And that, is when death is defeated.

I have no quibble with humans only having immortality during 'eternity'. But 1 Cor 15 is clearly speaking of the 'final defeat of death' and that by our receiving our new resurrection bodies when Christ returns. I believe the problem here lies with you and your need to have another 'age' where a millennium can take place...somewhere were death is still present. Of course that is a problem with this text. It's not a problem with my understanding of it.

 

[Naomi25]

You are awful busy. I will try to get to all your posts today!

First. nations is ethnos which is simply people. In the Bible there are only three people groups recognized After Israel was born, Jews, Gentiles, The Body of Christ. So this gathering is a gathering of peoples, from all lands.

As for Israel? One of the purposes of the Tribulation is to rid the nation of Israel of rebels and force them into the bond of teh New Covenant which God will impose on them. Dan.12:5-7, Ez. 20:33-38

So, you agree that nations means 'gathering of peoples from all lands'. Which means that Jews are judged no differently to anyone else. All must stand before the throne of Christ. There is no special 'judgement throne for the Jews' in scripture. Just the Judgment throne of Christ.

Force them into the new covenant. The same new covenant that makes them come to Christ as their one and only way to the Father? Through faith? Which means they come into the one body, where there is no longer Jew nor Gentile? That new covenant? All joined to the nourishing holy root?
Can you not see that biblically, there is NO room for a separate 'plan' for Israel? God's plan is for us all to be one. Not for us Gentile to take over Israel, to be better than them or replace them. For us to be adopted into the wondrous plan he always had for Abraham's true offspring. All through faith. The reason Paul breaks out into rejoicing at the end of Romans 11 is because he clearly sees that massive numbers of Jews will be mercifully bought into this plan. Imagine if something like that happened among Gentiles. Yes, we have large numbers of Christian, but comparatively, that would be like perhaps 90% of the people you knew and lived around you being bought to Christ! Paul is praising God because even though then, the partial hardening of his people, for the Gentiles benefit, he knew the great blessings for their future! But still....a future solidly in Christ alone, faith alone. One body! Nothing else can or will save. And there is nothing else in scripture outlining or detailing another way or another plan. Christ it is. Faith is it. Being grafted back onto the tree...the one body...is it.

Remember Israel as a nation flees halfway through the trib period and goes to a desert, wilderness, mountainous place God has already prepared for them , most scholars of dispy persuasion recognize this as the city of Petra! Matter of fact that is where jesus returns! Is. 63.

Remember Jesus promised He won't return until Isrtael says blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord! That is why the antichrist marshalls his forces in teh valley of Jezreel, marches to petra to wipe out Israel which would mean there would be no Jew to utter that phrase!

So Israel returns with Jesus from Petra to jerusalem where He finally vanquishes the antichrist and false prophet!

Perhaps. Perhaps this is what scripture is saying...there are those who argue for it and against. But here's the thing: there's nothing that says for certain that Israel cannot do these things without the Church being present. So there's nothing biblically pressing in these events that call for the Rapture of the Church first. Also, there's nothing here that says these Jews will not be Christians just like we are, and so are just Jewish members of the body. As Christians we say there is no more 'Jew or Greek', but persecution from evil has never recognized those boundaries. Jews, especially Christian Jews, may very well face the prospect of fleeing in the last days.

I'm sorry, but what? How do you figure that this 'hour' is somehow separated by 1000 years? Does it say? Implicitly or explicitly? Anywhere? Such claims must be supported.

Once again remember that hour (hora) as 60 minutes was not known at this time in Israel. So hora is used to show a fixed period or time in general.

John 5:27-29
King James Version

27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

This still makes zero sense. I fully grasp what you are saying about 'hour' not meaning an actual 60 minute period. But just because it instead means a fixed period or time in 'general' does not mean, in ANY way, you can suddenly wack 1000 years in there. Talk about non-literal!
What that understanding of 'hour' allows you to say is this: "a time is coming when" or "a time has been fixed when".
It does NOT allow you to go: "A thousand years from now is coming when".... and then expect people to take the 1000 years literally! When the text says nothing about it. At all.
*eyeroll*

so if this was the only passage we had about the future resurrection, then we could with some certainty conclude that the resurrection happens all at once or within a short time. But it isn't.

We know the dead in Christ (just church sainits) are resurrected at the rapture.

Sometime after Jesus' return and before He starts to reign for the thousand years is the first resurrection. Only believers are resurrected here for they are blessed!

Then after the thousand years and after God the Father squashes the final rebellion He will allow, comes the second resurrection which is the resurrection of the lost so we see 3 general resurrection mentioned in Scripture.

No, we see one. We only see multiple when we start squeezing in time gaps because we can't wiggle on our doctrines.
Dan 12:2 speak of the resurrection of good and evil being at the same time, as does John 5:28-29. So when we see the Rapture passages that speak of the dead in Christ being raised then, we have zero biblical reason to imagine that along with the dead believers, the wicked dead are not also being raised and judged. Especially when we look at the GWT judgment in Revelation, which speaks of Death and Hades giving up all their dead for judgment. This judgment shows both righteous and wicked being judged at the same time.
Again...there is nothing allowing us to separate these. And I have already been over the verses that discuss the 'first resurrection'. Which you haven't discussed yet...could be you haven't gotten there! We're getting a bit long, aren't we?

Well teh kingdom was taken away from that generation of Israel for them committing the unpardonable sin! It will be given to a future generation. Jesus said you will not see me until, not if or unless, but until. The Apostles in Act asked if the kingdom would then be restored, Jesus said that time is the Fathers. Plus the myriad of Gods Promises that Israel will have a kingdom.

"It will be given to a future generation". Two problems with this. First, it still seems under the disillusion that the Kingdom is not, at present, in the hands of others. As I showed with extensive verses, Jesus clearly told the Jews that the Kingdom would be taken from them and given to 'another people'. That was the Gentiles. And we can see the truth in that claim as the gospel of the kingdom of heaven went out to the nations in Acts and the epistles.
The second issue is this: Jews from that moment on til this moment now, COULD receive the kingdom. All they had to do was accept Christ. The Disciples were Jews of that generation, and they were the first ones IN the Kingdom. There have been Jewish believers all the way down through the last 2000 years and all of them have been accepted into the Kingdom.
The kingdom is a very real and present reality. It is not something that is waiting for when the Jews will toe the line and welcome Messiah.
If you disagree with me, please attempt to show ALL the verses I presented were either wrong and misinterpreted. You have a habit of just presenting these notions like their scripture. They're not.

But that Israel is to have a kingdom and reign over Gentiles:

Jer. 31:31-34(new covenant)

Prophecies still to come to pass:

Is. 29:22-24
Is. 30: 18-22
Is. 44:1-5, 21-23
Is. 45:17
Jer. 24:7
Jer. 50:19-20
Ez. 11:19-20
Ez. 36:25-27
Hos. 1:102:1
Hos. 14:4-8
Joe; 2:28-32
Mic. 7:18-20
Zeph. 3:9-13
Ps. 89:34-37
Jer. 3:18 Israel reunited
Is. 14:1-2
Is. 49:22-23
Is. 61:4-9
Mic. 7:14-17
Zech. 8:23

Jer 31:31: The 'New Covenant' is not proof that Israel is to have a new kingdom and 'reign over the Gentiles'. The NC is the inclusion of the Gentiles! It's the breaking down of barriers between the walls...between Jew and Gentile and between God and man. Grace...all around grace. Not land. Not in the physical sense. Don't you get it? Those in the NC are not salivating over a small parcel of land. We see the promised new earth. Where God will dwell with us and every man, woman and child will live with him and each other in perfect peace. No more war for tiny parcels of land, all share freely of the bounty of the earth.

Dispensationalists think too small.

The fact Israel has a national regeneration is the basis for Jesus return to earth!

Lev. 26:40-42
Jer. 3:11-18
Zech 12:10
Hos 5:15 ***** Key
Mt. 23:37-39

Well, in this I can hope you are correct, but we'll have to see.

 

[Trekson]

Ephesians 5.

Nothing but an analogy using marriage to describe the "as one" unity the body should have w/ the head and each other.

 

[Trekson]

Thanks, you have explained it all from your AMillennium viewpoint.
I reject that theory, for the very good reason: the Revelation 20 narrative states it will only be after the 1000 years of Jesus and the resurrected Trib Martyrs rule and King Jesus' reign and the final Judgment, that immortality is conferred.

This sequence is logical and sensible. Only during Eternity can humans have immortality.
Looking at 1 Corinthians 15:23 in Interlineal Scripture; the Greek does not say;... at His coming, but: in His presence. Which will be at the GWT Judgment. To God; just a 'day' later.

Actually it is: Isaiah 9:14, Isaiah 29:5-8, Zechariah 3:9, Psalms 47:9, Revelation 18:8
When it is understood what the Lord will use on His terrible Day of fiery wrath, then you will know how one day can and will literally fulfill all the graphic prophesies about that actual single day.

The day of the Lord begins w/ wrath but it does not stay in wrath. the wrath has a purpose, to judge the enemies of God and to bring in the millennial era which is also the day of the Lord.

 

[Keraz]

For my behalf, there have been many worthy efforts that present a convincing argument that Revelation is not presented in a strictly chronological order.

Sure, there are 'flashbacks' and further details in Revelation. But the 7 Seals, 7 Trumpets and the 7 Bowls is a set sequence of events. They are placed in order, the Seals all removed first, then the Trumpets and Bowls are directed at the ungodly peoples, leading up to Jesus Returning at the 7th Bowl, which is Armageddon.

The day of the Lord begins w/ wrath but it does not stay in wrath. the wrath has a purpose, to judge the enemies of God and to bring in the millennial era which is also the day of the Lord.

It is evident that there are two separate ‘Days of the Lord’ in which the Lord acts to punish His enemies. The Sixth Seal, the Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, is the next prophesied event that we can expect, of a worldwide judgement/punishment by fire from the sun, which will clear and cleanse His Land. Most clearly described in Isaiah 30:25-30, Isaiah 63:1-6 and Habakkuk 3:12 ‘Furiously You traverse the earth, in anger You trample down the nations.’
Note: the Lord is not seen on this Day: Psalms 11:4-6, Psalms 18:11, Habakkuk 3:4
This is the Day He comes as a thief, unexpectedly, sudden and shocking the world. 2 Thessalonians 5:3

Then, much later, at the Return of Jesus, is the Sixth and Seventh Bowl fulfilment, the great Day of the Sovereign Lord, when He visibly Returns in His glory and disposes of the armies of the Anti Christ. Revelation 19:19-21, Zechariah 14:3-5
NOT by fire, worldwide earthquakes or storms, but by the Sword of His Word. The two Days of the Lord simply do not match, it is wrong to say they all happen on one day.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

No scriptural support here. Because of course, you are merely spouting your opinions.

The Bible just does not say where the Wedding or the Feast will take place. You make up a scenario to fit with your preconceived beliefs.
Revelation 21:1-2 tells us when the place Jesus is preparing will come to the earth and only then will those worthy live in it. V27

And you make up a scenario to fit your preconceived beliefs!

At least I find direct support from the language of Scipture as written.

Revelation 19
King James Version

19 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

But you say based on your taught bias that this shouting is done because God wakes them up from soul sleep inorder to shout, then I guess they take some more NYQUIL and go back to bed! And there is no biblical warrant for that!

Now this verse:

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

Now this verse is the 2nd punctiliar aorist. Aorist has no value for time. so the fasct it says it has come- means it has come! A good word picture is when people are gathered in a church for a wedding, then when they hear the organ, they shout- the wedding is come!

But you want to make this happen on earth somehow! At least the verb defends a heavenly wedding!

Then we have this verse:

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.

Now this follows the shouting, the wedding and then Jesus returns with all the hosts of heaven! But you make this happen before the wedding because of some special revelation that God kept this a mystery and somehow or for some reason intentionally messed with the order when He inspired JOhn so that we all would have to await for this special revelation to straighten out the mess God made!

But gioven how God knew how JOhn understood Jewish weddings (cuz he was a Jew) God used that scenario to show that Jesus wedding the church is done privately (in heaven) then Jesus and the bride return to earth and after the war to vanquish the antichrist , false prophet and the worlds' armies assembled aganst HIm, Jesus establishes the long awaited kingdom and celebrates His wedding supper! That is the natural normal understanding of how this works out chronologically and keeping faith with the whole wedding scenarion.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Sure, there are 'flashbacks' and further details in Revelation. But the 7 Seals, 7 Trumpets and the 7 Bowls is a set sequence of events. They are placed in order, the Seals all removed first, then the Trumpets and Bowls are directed at the ungodly peoples, leading up to Jesus Returning at the 7th Bowl, which is Armageddon.

If you are so settled that the sequence of the seals, trumpets and bowls are in chronological order, why are you so willing to scramble the chronology of Rev. 19?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I agree that he is making a place for us. But here's the thing...you admitted to a serious flaw for your doctrine. We HAVE a kingdom now. No matter the particular format, there still IS a kingdom now. And a kingdom must, to make it a kingdom, have a king. That king is Christ.
Can you prove otherwise? And if not, then my point is valid and you have not disproved it.


Mmm, see, you yourself use the wording that makes the stark difference here. Jesus is "King of Kings and Lord of Lords".
Remember how Herod was 'king' in Jerusalem. But...he wasn't really where the power was, was he? He was...allowed...to be 'king' by Rome. Rome 'delivered' the kingship over to Herod, and without their permission to be enthroned in Jerusalem, his power would have meant...nothing.
Likewise with Satan, we see he is but a temporary ruler. Luke 4:6 tells us that Satan himself acknowledges that his power and authority on earth has been 'delivered' to him. By whom? God. And when Christ rejected him, then defeated him on the cross, going back to sit down at the Fathers right hand, Satan's rule went "on the clock". He is now counted as one of those powers that are already "under Christ's feet". The second Christ returns, he's done. In fact, hes SO done, 1 Cor 15 doesn't even mention him. It mentions death. Death is the last enemy. And we see that in Rev 20 as well, death goes into the lake of fire after the devil.
My point being, Jesus Christ is, clearly, King...now. There IS a kingdom now, with a king. And if we have both....where does it fit into the scheme of things?


Notice how it says "forever and ever"? This gives you a little clue about WHEN it's talking about. This is clearly speaking about the moment 'this age' turns into 'the age to come', when things become eternal.
But you yourself have only just previously admitted that the kingdom comes in 2 stages...a 'mystery' stage, and then an obvious one. The one above, is clearly the obvious one. But, as I point out above, it still doesn't change the fact that the bible CLEARLY labels what we have now as "a kingdom", with Christ as its head. No way out of it.


OH COME ON! You lecture ME about context and then come out with this??? Jesus didn't "revoke the kingdom and give to a different generation of Israel". Let's read who Jesus DID offer it to.

The Parable of the Tenants
“Hear another parable. There was a master of a house who planted a vineyard and put a fence around it and dug a winepress in it and built a tower and leased it to tenants, and went into another country. When the season for fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the tenants to get his fruit. And the tenants took his servants and beat one, killed another, and stoned another. Again he sent other servants, more than the first. And they did the same to them. Finally he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ But when the tenants saw the son, they said to themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and have his inheritance.’ And they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. When therefore the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?” They said to him, “He will put those wretches to a miserable death and let out the vineyard to other tenants who will give him the fruits in their seasons.”
Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:
“‘The stone that the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone;
this was the Lord’s doing,
and it is marvelous in our eyes’?
Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits. And the one who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; and when it falls on anyone, it will crush him.”
When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they perceived that he was speaking about them. And although they were seeking to arrest him, they feared the crowds, because they held him to be a prophet. -Matthew 21:33–46

Okay, lest you misunderstand as badly as you seem to have previously, let me walk you through it: the master of the vineyard is God, the tenants are Israel, the servants are the prophets, the Son is Jesus. And the "other tenant"...the "a people" is NOT "a later generation of the same people, same 'tenants' who stayed there and grew sorry for what they had done, but, actually OTHER tenants. Actually A people. And for someone who claims a literal reading, its not hard to LOOK at what happened. The Kingdom of God was extended to the Gentiles.


The Parable of the Wedding Feast
And again Jesus spoke to them in parables, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son, and sent his servants to call those who were invited to the wedding feast, but they would not come. Again he sent other servants, saying, ‘Tell those who are invited, “See, I have prepared my dinner, my oxen and my fat calves have been slaughtered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding feast.”’ But they paid no attention and went off, one to his farm, another to his business, while the rest seized his servants, treated them shamefully, and killed them. The king was angry, and he sent his troops and destroyed those murderers and burned their city. Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding feast is ready, but those invited were not worthy. Go therefore to the main roads and invite to the wedding feast as many as you find.’ And those servants went out into the roads and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good. So the wedding hall was filled with guests.“But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment. And he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ For many are called, but few are chosen.” -Matthew 22:1–14

Alright, again: the King is the father, the son is Christ. The servants are the prophets and disciples. When those originally invited would not come and killed the prophets, the king grew angry and sent troops to burn their city and then sent out the 'disciples' to call all, good and bad from 'all roads'...everywhere. Of course, only those who truly believe can be seated at the banquet, but the call now goes out to all. Again, to the literalist, who's city got burned to the ground after rejecting the Messiah? Who did the call go out to to come to the Kingdom of God? "To Judea, Samaria and the ends of the earth". Not..."hang tight in Jerusalem for a few hundred years and try again".

Context! Or, you know, just plain old straight readin' of the text.
And might I just add, you can't argue for a 2 stage kingdom, then also argue that it's actually been withdrawn for this period of time. That just makes zero sense. Logically AND biblically.

Well to try to summarize this post.

1. It is erroneous to form doctrine from parables.
2. There has always been a kingdom!
3. Right now we are in the "mystery" form of the kingdom. That is as prophesied in the OT, god would take out of teh gentiles a people for HImself! this is the time when the gospel goes out to all! As was promised in the OT
4. there is no 2 stage kingdom I preach or any teachers I respect teach!
5. there is the promised kingdom for Israel which was announced when Jesus was on earth , until the leaders committed the unpardonable sin.
Then as Jesus promised it was taken from that generation and will be given to another generation of Jews who will receive it! If you notice, you will see that the gospel of the kingdom was no longer preached after the unpardonable sin. But Jesus then began to teach the Apostles for teh church!
6. the church is the bride of Jesus, whereas OT Israel is the wife of Jehovah! He has divorced them but also promised to remarry them again . For His promises are yea and Amen!

But the fact that Israel is the focus of teh millenial kingdom on earth?

1. Matt. 19:28 The apostles rule over the twelve tribes of ISrael in the millenial kingdom
2. Is. 32: 1 The re will be princes in the millenial kngdom
3. Ez. 45:8 Princes will rule Israel in justice
4. Deut. 15:6 Israel rules over gentiles
5. Deut. 28:1 Israel to reign on high (now while this has a conditional aspect- Zech 13 and Ez. 20:30-38 clearly show that God will with a strong arm bring the final 1/3 of Israel into the bond of the covenant)
6. Is. 14:2 Gentiles will come to Israel.
7. The New Covenant Jer. 31:31-34 is primarily for Israel! And promises a future place for ISrael and its people!
Is. 30:18-22, Is. 29:22-24, Is. 44:21-23, Is. 45:17, Jer. 24:7 ,Jer. 50:19-20, Ez. 11:19-20, Ez. 36:25-27, Hosea1:10-2:1, Hosea 14:4-8,Joel 2:28-32, Zeph 3:9-13 these are all promises god made to Israel in the midst of its backsliding and captivity!

The promise of God regathering Israel to her promised land!

Deut. 30:1-10, Is. 11:11-12:6, Is. 27:12-13, Is.43:5-7 ( the gathering is global), Amos (:14-15, Zeph 3:18-20, Matt. 24:31, Ez.28:5-6, Ez. 34:25-31, EZ. 36:28-38, Joel 2:18-27

The millenial mountain

Is. 2:2-4, Is. 56:6-8<Micah 4:1-2, Is. 66:20, Ez. 45:1-8 measures out the area.

If yo uwish I can give you passages about eh Millenial Jerusalem and the role of gentiles in the Millenial kingdom. Remember the gentiles are the believing survivors of the tribulation and enter into teh kingdom (the sheep of Matt. 25)

 

[Enoch111]

If you are so settled that the sequence of the seals, trumpets and bowls are in chronological order, why are you so willing to scramble the chronology of Rev. 19?

Since Keraz does not believe in the Rapture, he has to find a way out of his dilemma. And Naomi has to find a way out of her dilemma by making outrageous claims about Dispensationalism.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Well, as an Amillennialist, I would agree. The passage suggests, I think, that it occurs either in heaven immediately before Christ's return, or on earth immediately after it. Or perhaps, on the new earth immediately after it. I struggle with the "in heaven immediately before it" simply because all the 'bride' won't be there. As long as there will be Christians alive on earth, part of the bride will not be in heaven. I don't think it should be argued that Christ would leave some of his bride out of this event, do you?

Well your problem is only because you demand that teh church has to endure the tribulation period which Scripture simply doesn't support!

How can we live in a Kingdom you have declared was withdrawn because the Jews rejected it? You're claims don't make sense and logically can't add up.
It's simple: no matter the "format" IF we have the presence of a kingdom NOW, which the NT is absolutely clear we do, and IF Christ triumphed on the cross and was placed above all powers and authorities when he sat down at the right hand of his Father, which the bible makes abundantly clear he did, THEN HE IS OUR KING. You cannot do away with that kingdom or place another over him supreme.

Well the physical kingdom has been temporarily withdrawn, then Jesus announced the mystery form of teh kingdom! That is just taking Scripture at its face value!

REad the passages I cited further on this thread and understand!

Jesus gently tells his Disciples that it's simply not for them to know. And do you know why? For them, its to take the message of the Kingdom to Judea, Samaria and the ends of the earth. That would be Gentiles, in case you were wondering. Not Jews generations later.
Yes, we see that there is "times fixed by the Fathers authority", and it COULD mean what you hope it does. But here's the rub...Jesus leaves it purposely vague. Probably because the Jewish nation had spent hundreds of years mistaking the nature of what Jesus would come to do. They, even here, were under the mistaken impression that he was going to, even 'at this time' defeat their physical and political enemies and establish this earthly kingdom they had all believed he was bringing. But he had told them repeatedly that he was NOT bringing a kingdom that could be seen or perceived. He was there to deal with sin not Rome. And his Disciples needed to be like minded...sin was the main problem, not getting their earthly kingdom.

And amills love vagueness because it allows them to do many things to Scripture as shown by books written.
It was vague because Jesus doidn't know, just as Jesus said- that was information the Father has kept to HImself. And no Israel did not forget teh purposes of the Lord. They knew their Messiah was to save them and give them a kingdom as the verses I posted show! What they did forget however was that the OTY spoke of two comings of their Messiah, the first as Suffering Savior, teh Second as Conquering King!

So the old wife can become the betrothed and the old wife can start gathering the new wife, except for those of her who becomes the betrothed. And too bad for those who aren't members of the old/new wife and missed out on the sucking away of the betrothed because the wedding's already taken place and they have no spousal affiliation! Does that make them the harem?
Right! Got it...makes perfect sense!

And I thought better of your ability to understand the difference between OT saints under the Abrahamic and Mosaic Covenant and the the saints called the church!

Sir....I would just appreciate it if you dealt with the verses I give and give me some verses back. Please don't just give me your opinion, give me each opinion supported by scripture. I don't really care what Mr Fruchtenbaum (although I love his name!) says...I want to know how YOU believe the bible supports your ideas. Too often you are just giving me your ideas.

Well as I believe these teachings and have done the Berean thing and searched the Scriptures I placed them here. They go into much greter detail than is allowable here.

These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland. If they had been thinking of that land from which they had gone out, they would have had opportunity to return. But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city. -Hebrews 11:13–16

Correct! For all these OT saints are in heaven glorified now! The physical kingdom is not for them.

So...the 25 references to the Kingdom in the epistles and Revelation are just an anomaly then? Or are they just the kingdom for us betrothed types? The kingdom for the wife types is a different one....and suddenly we're talking of so many different kingdoms no wonder you're confused.

NO that is you just adding to my words!

"In those days that made him the highest favored and heir."
What. Are. You. Talking. About?
Jesus was not 'highest favoured and heir' because he sat at God's right hand. He sat at God's right hand and was those things because he WAS God. Remember how "he and the Father are one"? Ei...
I think you have bigger problems than the Millennium and Rapture.

Yes Jesus is god! But He is inferior to His Father in position! God the Father is the most exalted!
that does not subtract from Jesus' absolute diety, just teh bible shows clearly the Son is inferior in position to the Father! Even at teh end of teh MIllenial kingdom this occurs:

1 Cor. 15:
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

So Jesus is equally God with His Father but does not hold the same position as HIs Father! this is SCripture!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Sir....I would just appreciate it if you dealt with the verses I give and give me some verses back. Please don't just give me your opinion, give me each opinion supported by scripture. I don't really care what Mr Fruchtenbaum (although I love his name!) says...I want to know how YOU believe the bible supports your ideas. Too often you are just giving me your ideas.

Well I have now shown you the mass of SCripture that shows what I write is "not my ideas".

But to save time I would encourage you politely to study these video teachings. This is a man who can run rings around anyone biblically!

The final restoration of Israel

Pre trib rapture

Olivet discourse

Jews and the Tribulation

The error of replacement theology
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6atpy54NLM The church, Israel and the latter days
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9GR_ROg40w promise of the land in the Abrahamic covenant
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKmaGsTMdqY Calling of the bride at the feast of Trumpets.

So you know, these are my references sources. I look up the Scriptures from these books and videos and cite them here! I freely admit that I rely on those who taught me what I believe the Scriptures say! And I can quote numerous Covenant amill theologians and the wide divergence in views they have.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Since Keraz does not believe in the Rapture, he has to find a way out of his dilemma. And Naomi has to find a way out of her dilemma by making outrageous claims about Dispensationalism.

Well from what I can glean from his ideas, He does believe in a kind of sort of rapture.

If I got him right, As Jesus is descending from the 3rd heaven to earth in REv. 19, sometime right before He touches down He grabs all believers from around the globe and puts them somewhere. I think it is Jerusalem.

 

[Keraz]

Well from what I can glean from his ideas, He does believe in a kind of sort of rapture.

If I got him right, As Jesus is descending from the 3rd heaven to earth in REv. 19, sometime right before He touches down He grabs all believers from around the globe and puts them somewhere. I think it is Jerusalem.

I do not believe in a 'rapture to heaven'. That theory is not supported by any scripture, it has to be assumed and surmised.
When Jesus Returns, He will send out His angels to gather those who remain alive to where He is. Matthew 24:30-31 That would be Jerusalem. Zechariah 14:3

You cannot build any timing proofs around when and where the Marriage and the Supper will be. The Bible just does not tell us.
As we humans never go to heaven, it must be on earth, after Jesus Returns.

 

[Stumpmaster]

As we humans never go to heaven, it must be on earth, after Jesus Returns.

How do the Jehovah's Witnesses interpret these verses?

Rev 7:9-17 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; (10) And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sit upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. (11) And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, (12) Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. (13) And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? (14) And I said unto him, Sir, you know. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (15) Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sits on the throne shall dwell among them. (16) They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. (17) For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

 

[farouk]

So, you agree that nations means 'gathering of peoples from all lands'. Which means that Jews are judged no differently to anyone else. All must stand before the throne of Christ. There is no special 'judgement throne for the Jews' in scripture. Just the Judgment throne of Christ.

Force them into the new covenant. The same new covenant that makes them come to Christ as their one and only way to the Father? Through faith? Which means they come into the one body, where there is no longer Jew nor Gentile? That new covenant? All joined to the nourishing holy root?
Can you not see that biblically, there is NO room for a separate 'plan' for Israel? God's plan is for us all to be one. Not for us Gentile to take over Israel, to be better than them or replace them. For us to be adopted into the wondrous plan he always had for Abraham's true offspring. All through faith. The reason Paul breaks out into rejoicing at the end of Romans 11 is because he clearly sees that massive numbers of Jews will be mercifully bought into this plan. Imagine if something like that happened among Gentiles. Yes, we have large numbers of Christian, but comparatively, that would be like perhaps 90% of the people you knew and lived around you being bought to Christ! Paul is praising God because even though then, the partial hardening of his people, for the Gentiles benefit, he knew the great blessings for their future! But still....a future solidly in Christ alone, faith alone. One body! Nothing else can or will save. And there is nothing else in scripture outlining or detailing another way or another plan. Christ it is. Faith is it. Being grafted back onto the tree...the one body...is it.


Perhaps. Perhaps this is what scripture is saying...there are those who argue for it and against. But here's the thing: there's nothing that says for certain that Israel cannot do these things without the Church being present. So there's nothing biblically pressing in these events that call for the Rapture of the Church first. Also, there's nothing here that says these Jews will not be Christians just like we are, and so are just Jewish members of the body. As Christians we say there is no more 'Jew or Greek', but persecution from evil has never recognized those boundaries. Jews, especially Christian Jews, may very well face the prospect of fleeing in the last days.


This still makes zero sense. I fully grasp what you are saying about 'hour' not meaning an actual 60 minute period. But just because it instead means a fixed period or time in 'general' does not mean, in ANY way, you can suddenly wack 1000 years in there. Talk about non-literal!
What that understanding of 'hour' allows you to say is this: "a time is coming when" or "a time has been fixed when".
It does NOT allow you to go: "A thousand years from now is coming when".... and then expect people to take the 1000 years literally! When the text says nothing about it. At all.
*eyeroll*




No, we see one. We only see multiple when we start squeezing in time gaps because we can't wiggle on our doctrines.
Dan 12:2 speak of the resurrection of good and evil being at the same time, as does John 5:28-29. So when we see the Rapture passages that speak of the dead in Christ being raised then, we have zero biblical reason to imagine that along with the dead believers, the wicked dead are not also being raised and judged. Especially when we look at the GWT judgment in Revelation, which speaks of Death and Hades giving up all their dead for judgment. This judgment shows both righteous and wicked being judged at the same time.
Again...there is nothing allowing us to separate these. And I have already been over the verses that discuss the 'first resurrection'. Which you haven't discussed yet...could be you haven't gotten there! We're getting a bit long, aren't we?


"It will be given to a future generation". Two problems with this. First, it still seems under the disillusion that the Kingdom is not, at present, in the hands of others. As I showed with extensive verses, Jesus clearly told the Jews that the Kingdom would be taken from them and given to 'another people'. That was the Gentiles. And we can see the truth in that claim as the gospel of the kingdom of heaven went out to the nations in Acts and the epistles.
The second issue is this: Jews from that moment on til this moment now, COULD receive the kingdom. All they had to do was accept Christ. The Disciples were Jews of that generation, and they were the first ones IN the Kingdom. There have been Jewish believers all the way down through the last 2000 years and all of them have been accepted into the Kingdom.
The kingdom is a very real and present reality. It is not something that is waiting for when the Jews will toe the line and welcome Messiah.
If you disagree with me, please attempt to show ALL the verses I presented were either wrong and misinterpreted. You have a habit of just presenting these notions like their scripture. They're not.


Jer 31:31: The 'New Covenant' is not proof that Israel is to have a new kingdom and 'reign over the Gentiles'. The NC is the inclusion of the Gentiles! It's the breaking down of barriers between the walls...between Jew and Gentile and between God and man. Grace...all around grace. Not land. Not in the physical sense. Don't you get it? Those in the NC are not salivating over a small parcel of land. We see the promised new earth. Where God will dwell with us and every man, woman and child will live with him and each other in perfect peace. No more war for tiny parcels of land, all share freely of the bounty of the earth.

Dispensationalists think too small.


Well, in this I can hope you are correct, but we'll have to see.

@Naomi25 I think it's fair to say from the witness of Scripture that peoples and individuals will be judged according to the light they may have received. Some have been in great darkness; others have had the oracles of God.

 

[Naomi25]

And you know I got on my high horse HOw?

Seems to me (and I think I know my feelings maybe just a little better than you) I was just responding to someone else that I also have had a long tenure in Eschatology! But I can give it just as well as I can take it!

Once again I direct you to your post number #495. In response to my explanation of how Covenant theologians used imagery in scripture, you not only called my answer deceptive, covenant theologians dishonest, but also told me that you had been studying all this for "2 decades"!
So, I ask you, if you were first told you were being deceptive and fundamentally dishonest in your understanding and then dared to bring questions against a towering 2 decades of teaching. Not learning...teaching, no less....would you not see that at a person being a little "high-horse-y?"

 

[farouk]

Problem 2: Finding two distinct 'comings' of Christ in the last days. If we carefully look at all the passages that talk about Christ's second coming, I simply cannot understand how Dispensationalists separate them into a Rapture 'coming' and a 'second' coming. I know the drill of 'for his people and then with his people', but that seems to me nothing by fancy footwork. Let me show what I mean by scripture.

From my point of view, from the previous post, we have the future divided into two 'ages'. We are currently still in "this age", with "the age to come" future...it is described as where the righteous will receive "eternal life". Thus, we may mark 'the age to come' as eternity future. It has no end. That is important to note, especially when we look at verses like these:



And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” -John 6:39–40

Martha said to him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.” -John 11:24

The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day. -John 12:48

on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus. -Romans 2:16

Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God. -1 Corinthians 4:5

because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.” -Acts 17:31

These verses show there is A DAY that is set. "The LAST day" on which judgment comes. For both the righteous and wicked. The last day, when the resurrection of the dead will come. When would we say the 'last' day would be? I can't be in eternity, that has no end. It must be the end of this age, must it not? But as we look at more verses of His coming, we see even more of this 'day' being fleshed in. This day of judgment for the wicked and gathering for the elect, is also called 'the end of the age'...which is sort of self explanatory as far as 'when' goes. We know it is the same time/period/event because the same judgment/gathering of the righteous is being depicted.

..and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels. Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.....So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. -Matthew 13:39–43,49–50

As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”... “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. -Matthew 24:3,29–31

This is placing two 'terms' together. "That day/the last day" and "the end of the age". Where we know the elect are gathered and 'judged', the wicked are judged and Christ returns...to gather and judge both. What else can we conclude from scripture? "The Day of the Lord":

..so that you are not lacking in any gift, as you wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ, who will sustain you to the end, guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.-1 Corinthians 1:7–8

you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord. -1 Corinthians 5:5

For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage one another with these words.
Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need to have anything written to you. For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. -1 Thessalonians 4:16–18, 5:1–2

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed. -2 Peter 3:10

So, on the "day of the Lord" we can see that the good will be judged (perhaps rewarded is a better term). Christ will return and gather us to him (Rapture), and the resurrection of the dead will occur, like 'a thief'. Also like 'a thief' on the 'day of the Lord' is the end of this earth and cosmos, and the coming of the new.

So, in summary, we see that 'the day/last day', the "end of the age" and "the day of the Lord" all link these events together by the very fact that many of them overlap.
"The last day" gives us the resurrection of the believing dead. The judgment of the wicked and just.
The "end of the age" shows the gathering and judgment of the wicked, the elect being gathered, Jesus' return and the Rapture.
The 'day of the Lord' gives us the judgment of the good, the resurrection, Jesus' return and the Rapture, and the new heavens/earth.

I see absolutely no way to justify separating these verses/events into 2 comings. Not when they are woven so tightly together.

@Naomi25 As much as answering 'when?' in terms of the Lord's coming in Scripture, there is also the question of 'for whom?'. I don't see that 1 Cor. 10.32, with its distinct groups of ppl, allows me to lump everyone together.

 

[Naomi25]

Sorry but that pig don't fly! I called an answer of yours deceptive not you!

Semantics. As you very well know. If I am giving an answer that I know is deceptive, then I am being deceptive. Thus the line in the sand of calling one or the other deceptive doesn't wash. Both are deceptive as well you know.
If the answer I give is wrong, but I believe it to be true, then the answer I give is mistaken or in error, not deceptive. And therefore you ought to call me mistaken, as is my 'answer'.
The problem here is you assumed that I was both complicit and aware that my answer was wrong and gave it anyway. Thus you called both my answer AND me deceptive.

Let me give you a little example. I could, just as easily say: "Roland, all the answers you've given me thus far are incredibly deceptive and dishonest."

See how that makes the basic assumption that YOU are engaging in deceit and dishonesty?

At the VERY least, you've worded your accusation very poorly indeed. How much more gracious would it have been to say something like "Naomi, I think you very mistaken and that you've been deceived. Your answers are very wrong."

If you want to do that you are free to do so! Then this shall be my last post if you wish to play that guilty by extension game. And a deceptive answer does not mean that you are willingly engaging in intentional deception. It means that how you answered was a deception, and that may be because what you were taught is a deception. People can promulgate a deception and not be guilty of willfully deceiving others. It is like th difference between cold blooded murder and accidental homicide! You should know that given your level of intellect I see here online!

Again, your MISTAKE here is assuming you know me, or anyone else well enough to know who is mistaken and who is deceptive. And that's assuming their teaching is, in fact, in error. You have not, in any way, proved that. Not logically, not biblically.
In point of fact, it seems you are very good at repeating Dispensational teaching line for line and pointing to Dispensational teachers...but not so good at backing up these thoughts and points by sound exegesis. So I would perhaps suggest that before you start looking for error further away from home, you do it closer.

I did call some of the covenantal hermenuutic strategies dishonest, because I am convinced it is!

I tend to be very blunt and direct! If I want to call you deceptive I will say you are deceptive! I didn't so you are engaging in a false association (or whatever they call it).

You may be convinced of whatever you like, but it doesn't make it true. This is why whenever we make a claim it is so very important to hedge it with scripture. I don't suppose I have everything correct. I don't suppose those I read do either. But what I attempt to do, as do those I enjoy reading and listening to, is to carefully track my thoughts and ideas WITH scripture. I follow my logic jumps WITH God's word. You seem, like many Dispensationalists, to just expound with grandiose expectation, the plot that you believe must be true. Why? Because it is. I have found little to no solid biblical explanation for these beliefs. I have found no critical arguments against what I have put to you, biblically, either my questions or my own ideas. You contradict your own ideas and claims in many places, and are illogical in others.
You mean I am engaging in false accusation? Character slander? My goodness...YOU started this conversation between us by making false assumptions about my understandings, beliefs, claims and intentions. And you think I'm engaging in character slander?

 

[Naomi25]

I am a Premillennialist, but I'm not a Pre-tribulationalist.

Anywhere in God's Word that I see the coming destruction, like that shown there upon the great whore in the first part of Rev.19, it means the last day of this world, which is also the day that Jesus returns to gather His Church.

Concerning the day of His return, Lord Jesus said He comes "as a thief" in Revelation 16:15, which is the same time metaphor that Apostles Paul and Peter used about the destruction to occur on earth on the last day, the "day of the Lord". Even with 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2, which verses are about the day of Christ's coming to gather His Church, the KJV phrase there, "day of Christ", is actually 'day of the Lord' in the Greek (Greek 'christos' is not in the manuscripts there, Greek 'kurios' is, which means 'lord'). Lord Jesus also used the thief breaking in idea to mark the day of His coming in the Matthew 24 chapter.

Thus the timeline in Rev.19 that is revealed is the first part of the chapter is post-2nd coming, and then when John sees Jesus coming on the white horse, that is the "day of the Lord" which is the day He returns to gather His Church, and then do battle per Zechariah 14 and begin His "thousand years" reign of Rev.20.

I don't see any of this being difficult to grasp at all, for Lord Jesus and His Apostles left His servants many clues in HIS WORD as to His return on that final day of this world, on that "day of the Lord". Just because the children of darkness want to try and change that day doesn't mean those who listen to Lord Jesus in HIS WORD have to listen to those fakes.

I...at this point still see the Millennial period as happening during this time period, for various biblical reasons...which I know you will not agree with. That's fine.
But as far as everything else, I have been leaning more...towards the Post-trib way of reading things, although I am not yet set on these things. I've been listening to some interesting people who have made some fairly convincing points. Points that I have not been able to dismiss. I like those sorts of points...they make me think!
I do think its the sort of time in human history when we all need to be watching and thinking of these things fairly hard. I imagine we'll all still be a little surprised by how it all goes down.