John Darby

[Naomi25]

Well I have been teaching Escatology for over 2 decades! I would like you to list three of what you think are fundamental flaws of dispensational escatology and give biblical support to your allegations!

Problem 2: Finding two distinct 'comings' of Christ in the last days. If we carefully look at all the passages that talk about Christ's second coming, I simply cannot understand how Dispensationalists separate them into a Rapture 'coming' and a 'second' coming. I know the drill of 'for his people and then with his people', but that seems to me nothing by fancy footwork. Let me show what I mean by scripture.

From my point of view, from the previous post, we have the future divided into two 'ages'. We are currently still in "this age", with "the age to come" future...it is described as where the righteous will receive "eternal life". Thus, we may mark 'the age to come' as eternity future. It has no end. That is important to note, especially when we look at verses like these:



And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” -John 6:39–40

Martha said to him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.” -John 11:24

The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day. -John 12:48

on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus. -Romans 2:16

Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then each one will receive his commendation from God. -1 Corinthians 4:5

because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.” -Acts 17:31

These verses show there is A DAY that is set. "The LAST day" on which judgment comes. For both the righteous and wicked. The last day, when the resurrection of the dead will come. When would we say the 'last' day would be? I can't be in eternity, that has no end. It must be the end of this age, must it not? But as we look at more verses of His coming, we see even more of this 'day' being fleshed in. This day of judgment for the wicked and gathering for the elect, is also called 'the end of the age'...which is sort of self explanatory as far as 'when' goes. We know it is the same time/period/event because the same judgment/gathering of the righteous is being depicted.

..and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels. Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.....So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. -Matthew 13:39–43,49–50

As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”... “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. -Matthew 24:3,29–31

This is placing two 'terms' together. "That day/the last day" and "the end of the age". Where we know the elect are gathered and 'judged', the wicked are judged and Christ returns...to gather and judge both. What else can we conclude from scripture? "The Day of the Lord":

..so that you are not lacking in any gift, as you wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ, who will sustain you to the end, guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.-1 Corinthians 1:7–8

you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord. -1 Corinthians 5:5

For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage one another with these words.
Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need to have anything written to you. For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. -1 Thessalonians 4:16–18, 5:1–2

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed. -2 Peter 3:10

So, on the "day of the Lord" we can see that the good will be judged (perhaps rewarded is a better term). Christ will return and gather us to him (Rapture), and the resurrection of the dead will occur, like 'a thief'. Also like 'a thief' on the 'day of the Lord' is the end of this earth and cosmos, and the coming of the new.

So, in summary, we see that 'the day/last day', the "end of the age" and "the day of the Lord" all link these events together by the very fact that many of them overlap.
"The last day" gives us the resurrection of the believing dead. The judgment of the wicked and just.
The "end of the age" shows the gathering and judgment of the wicked, the elect being gathered, Jesus' return and the Rapture.
The 'day of the Lord' gives us the judgment of the good, the resurrection, Jesus' return and the Rapture, and the new heavens/earth.

I see absolutely no way to justify separating these verses/events into 2 comings. Not when they are woven so tightly together.

 

[Naomi25]

Well I have been teaching Escatology for over 2 decades! I would like you to list three of what you think are fundamental flaws of dispensational escatology and give biblical support to your allegations!

My third flaw, as I see it, is 1 Cor 15:20-28 and 50-55. I think this passage marks a serious problem with the timing of Dispensational flow.

But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.
I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:

“Death is swallowed up in victory.”
“O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?” -1 Corinthians 15:15:20–28,50–55

So, before we pull in other scriptures to flesh out this passage, this right here is astounding. Christ, at his resurrection, became the FIRST of what we shall be. When shall we be it? AT his coming. It is THEN that the END will come and the KINGDOM will be handed over to the Father. This tells us that there IS currently A Kingdom. We're also told that the end will come at his return because he will have defeated all other enemies; all other powers, authorities and enemies. The LAST enemy is death. When is death defeated and the Kingdom "handed over"? WHEN we are given our new, imperishable bodies. Which, we are told beforehand, is AT Christ's coming. The Rapture. Jesus comes, the Rapture happens, we get our new bodies, and the Kingdom is handed over to the Father as death is defeated.
In my mind, that's a mic drop. Thank you Paul.
But in case one passage doesn't do it for you, there are others to strengthen it.

Then he left the crowds and went into the house. And his disciples came to him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds of the field.” He answered, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, and the good seed is the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels. Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear. -Matthew 13:36–43

There is clear evidence in this parable of a kingdom being present during this age. Not only that, we see Jesus teaching that a single event will happen at the 'end of the age', after the 'good and evil' are allowed to grow together, when Christ returns. The wicked will be judged and the righteous will 'shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father'. I find it incredibly interesting that it's only AFTER the 'end of the age' that this 'kingdom of the Father'...one that is clearly different to the kingdom we currently experience...the one that 1 Cor 15 says Christ will hand over, interestingly, that 1 Cor 15 says 'hand over to the 'Father'. We know that Christ's Kingdom truly has no end. 1 Cor 15 says that in his 'handing over' of the Kingdom to the Father, God will be made all in all. Christ IS one with God. The kingdom of heaven becomes, in its eternal perfection, the Kingdom of the Father. But it is not the same, it cannot be, sin and death have been defeated.


that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, -Ephesians 1:20–22

As 1 Cor 15 says, the moment Christ ascended and sat at God's right hand, he had already been put above every other power and authority. Death only lingers with his say so. That is why the instant of his return sees it's final defeat.

Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment. -John 5:28–29

We can see that the resurrection of both good and evil happen at the same time. There are not going to be several different resurrections. There's no biblical proof of that.


“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats...
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” -Matthew 25:31–32,46

Again, there is only one judgment of the wicked and righteous, not several. There is one 'day', one 'coming', when Christ will raise the dead, judge all and make all things new.

Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. -Revelation 20:11–15

This ought to be linked rather critically to 1 Cor 15, but it's often not. When 1 Cor 15 tells us that 'death is defeated', what do we suppose that means? It means the lake of fire. That is THIS event. Which, I might point out, is clearly AFTER the 1000 years. But yes, Christ comes back, the dead are raised and judged, and go into everlasting punishment or righteousness. This is that. Matt 25 describes the 'living nations' for us, this is from the point of view of the 'dead'. But it is the same event.

Again...I'm not sure how you separate any of these events. Scripture winds them together tightly.
Also...please know...I'm not banging these out just as a "ha...take that!". While, sure, I've not come across a Dispensationalist who has managed to answer any of these questions in a way that has been able to make all the connections sit flat, as it were, I'm not opposed to it.

 

[Naomi25]

Hi @Naomi25 Here's another angle: some dispensationalists would say that minimizing the distinction between Israel and the church in Scripture can happen if passages are allegorized to the extent that distinct contexts are diminished in favour of vague allegories. As if to say: Well, it doesn't really matter whether a passage is strictly about Israel or the church, because we are going to lump them together anyway....(if you see what I mean? :) )

Well...I do. And yes, there are some passages that I feel that I haven't heard a good...balance taught on...from my angle, if you know what I mean. Not that they've done a poor job...they just don't tend to go there.
But on the flip side of it, I get a little frustrated with the Dispensational side, when I'm happy to acknowledge a future ahead for Israel (Rom 11), but when I try and point to, what I would say is the literal teaching of Gal 3:29And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise), for example, and Eph 3:6This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel), I get called a replacement theologist.
There must be even ground in the middle, don't you think. Someplace where this can be true:
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. Galatians 3:28

 

[farouk]

Well...I do. And yes, there are some passages that I feel that I haven't heard a good...balance taught on...from my angle, if you know what I mean. Not that they've done a poor job...they just don't tend to go there.
But on the flip side of it, I get a little frustrated with the Dispensational side, when I'm happy to acknowledge a future ahead for Israel (Rom 11), but when I try and point to, what I would say is the literal teaching of Gal 3:29And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise), for example, and Eph 3:6This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel), I get called a replacement theologist.
There must be even ground in the middle, don't you think. Someplace where this can be true:
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. Galatians 3:28

@Naomi25 Interesting thoughts, yes... Of course, the verses you quoted from Galatians and Ephesians refer in part to those from a Jewish background who are - have already become - Christians now, rather than to those - as you rightly refer to - who will acknowledge the Messiah in the future.

 

[farouk]

My third flaw, as I see it, is 1 Cor 15:20-28 and 50-55. I think this passage marks a serious problem with the timing of Dispensational flow.

But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.
I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:

“Death is swallowed up in victory.”
“O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?” -1 Corinthians 15:15:20–28,50–55

So, before we pull in other scriptures to flesh out this passage, this right here is astounding. Christ, at his resurrection, became the FIRST of what we shall be. When shall we be it? AT his coming. It is THEN that the END will come and the KINGDOM will be handed over to the Father. This tells us that there IS currently A Kingdom. We're also told that the end will come at his return because he will have defeated all other enemies; all other powers, authorities and enemies. The LAST enemy is death. When is death defeated and the Kingdom "handed over"? WHEN we are given our new, imperishable bodies. Which, we are told beforehand, is AT Christ's coming. The Rapture. Jesus comes, the Rapture happens, we get our new bodies, and the Kingdom is handed over to the Father as death is defeated.
In my mind, that's a mic drop. Thank you Paul.
But in case one passage doesn't do it for you, there are others to strengthen it.

Then he left the crowds and went into the house. And his disciples came to him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds of the field.” He answered, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. The field is the world, and the good seed is the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels. Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear. -Matthew 13:36–43

There is clear evidence in this parable of a kingdom being present during this age. Not only that, we see Jesus teaching that a single event will happen at the 'end of the age', after the 'good and evil' are allowed to grow together, when Christ returns. The wicked will be judged and the righteous will 'shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father'. I find it incredibly interesting that it's only AFTER the 'end of the age' that this 'kingdom of the Father'...one that is clearly different to the kingdom we currently experience...the one that 1 Cor 15 says Christ will hand over, interestingly, that 1 Cor 15 says 'hand over to the 'Father'. We know that Christ's Kingdom truly has no end. 1 Cor 15 says that in his 'handing over' of the Kingdom to the Father, God will be made all in all. Christ IS one with God. The kingdom of heaven becomes, in its eternal perfection, the Kingdom of the Father. But it is not the same, it cannot be, sin and death have been defeated.


that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, -Ephesians 1:20–22

As 1 Cor 15 says, the moment Christ ascended and sat at God's right hand, he had already been put above every other power and authority. Death only lingers with his say so. That is why the instant of his return sees it's final defeat.

Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment. -John 5:28–29

We can see that the resurrection of both good and evil happen at the same time. There are not going to be several different resurrections. There's no biblical proof of that.


“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats...
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” -Matthew 25:31–32,46

Again, there is only one judgment of the wicked and righteous, not several. There is one 'day', one 'coming', when Christ will raise the dead, judge all and make all things new.

Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. -Revelation 20:11–15

This ought to be linked rather critically to 1 Cor 15, but it's often not. When 1 Cor 15 tells us that 'death is defeated', what do we suppose that means? It means the lake of fire. That is THIS event. Which, I might point out, is clearly AFTER the 1000 years. But yes, Christ comes back, the dead are raised and judged, and go into everlasting punishment or righteousness. This is that. Matt 25 describes the 'living nations' for us, this is from the point of view of the 'dead'. But it is the same event.

Again...I'm not sure how you separate any of these events. Scripture winds them together tightly.
Also...please know...I'm not banging these out just as a "ha...take that!". While, sure, I've not come across a Dispensationalist who has managed to answer any of these questions in a way that has been able to make all the connections sit flat, as it were, I'm not opposed to it.

@Naomi25 Some passages refer to events in summary; others give a lot of detail. For example, John's Gospel gives a lot of detail to the upper room ministry but does not refer to the Lord's Supper directly; other Gospels give a lot of detail to the Lord's Supper. It's not a question of inaccuracy but of emphasis, as led by the Spirit of God. I guess one could make a similar comment about various passages of eschatological significance.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You teach eschatology, but you mis-spell it?

Here is my answer to your requested 3 flaws of the dispensation theory:
1/ Jesus said we must continue to preach the Gospel until He comes again. Matthew 28:19-20, 1 Thessalonians 5:23

2/ We must keep strong in our faith and endure until the the end of this age. Matthew 24:13, Revelation 14:12, Hebrews 10:36-39

3/ There is no general Jewish redemption. The forthcoming Day of the Lords fiery wrath, will strike the Middle East and destroy all the ungodly and unbelieving peoples. Ezekiel 30:1-5, Ezekiel 20:1-8, Isaiah 22:14, Zephaniah 1:1-18
Only a remnant of the Christian Jews will survive. Isaiah 29:1-4, Romans 9:27
There is only one people of God. John 17:20-23, Ephesians 4:4-6

The whole idea of a 'rapture to heaven', is a deception and is never prophesied to happen in the Bible.

Well I discount your comments because you love to highlight the gants (like my mis-spelling)

1. No He said He would be with us to the end of teh age. But during the tribulation time- the nature of teh gospel repsented changes than what we preach now!

2. If God promises to deliver us from the wrath to come as God declared in Thessalonians and REv. shows the church is to be kept out of the coming global tribulation- why does the church need to endure?

3. Yes there is a general Jewish redemption. The OT shows it clearly! Jews now become Christians and there is just one body now! But Israel will have her promised kingdom ruled by Messiah! That is where the difference lies! Zech. 13:

8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

YOur biggest problem is you have been mistaught by somebody who has indoctrinated you into believing that every saved individual from Pentecost until the physical return of Jesus are all the body of Christ! Scripture shows that is not the case!

OT saints are saints but not the body of Christ!

Tribulation period saints are saints but not part of the body of Christ!

YOU reject the church in heaven in REv. 20 being wed to Jesus but yet it is only the church that is called the bride of Christ! The crowd in heaven which you say sleep and god wakes up two times to shout- announce the wedding of Jesus to his bride! So they are not the bride! Just like John the Baptist was not the bride either but just afriend!

Sorry but your esoteric reinterpretations just don't wash.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I'm sorry, but...seriously? You think we come to a book like...let's say Daniel, shall we...and go..."I shall declare, that the latter portion of this book shall be read in allegory!" And lo and behold, the images appear, thus we determine to read them as such. Because even a walnut can see that imagery is used in Daniel.
You're basically saying we're throwing out all ideas of previously held literacy, established and recognized long throughout history.
I'll tell you what happens, it's pretty darn clear that there are images in the book. Yeah? I know it well, because Dispensationalists LOVE Daniel...they're all over the images.

No, we both agree in the imagery of Scripture. But where allegorists go off and why is beyond my understanding.

Things...it seems, get tricky when we get to a book like Revelation. The problem arises because if we don't read it "literally", then things aren't going to go like the Dispensational timetable has all laid out. But here's the thing....the same imagery is used in Revelation as it is in Daniel. And Ezekiel, and Isaiah, and Joel...and keep going. All throughout the OT. God, in his goodness and wisdom has given us what we need to interpret the images...again, so we can't make helicopter appear out the sky. Because that's the honest to goodness literal reading of it. Cross my heart.

Yes and we believe that all biblical imagery and symbolism is defined by Scripture itself. Where we differ is what it means. And not knowing you I do not know you rposition on the future of the nation of Israel. That is usually where the biggest reinterpretations come from.

HOT DOG! Do you mean it? You're on.
The first is the problem with the Millennium. I mean, where does it biblically fit? The bible continuously talks of 2 ages. Not 3, 2. We see this is these passages:

Where does it fit? It is the kingdom promised to Israel, it is the kingdom Jesus establishes on earth! The length is opnly mentioned one place:

Revelation 20
King James Version

20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Then after the millenial kingdom- comes the eternal order!

But during the millenial Satan is abyssed. and the Antichrist and the False prophet after they are defeated at the physical return of Jesus become the first two residents of the eternal lake of fire!

Blasphemy:
This Age: Blasphemy not forgiven, Matt. 13:32
Age to Come: Blasphemy not forgiven, Matt. 13:32
Eternal Life:
Age to Come: Receive Eternal Life, Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30
Marriage:
This Age: Marry and Given in Marriage, Luke 20:34
Age to Come: No marriage in age to come, Luke 20:35
Power and Superiority of God:
This Age: Power and Superiority of God in this age, Eph. 1:21
Age to Come: Power and Superiority of God in the age to come, Eph. 1:21
Present age is evil:
This Age: Evil in present age, Gal. 1:4
Receive 100 times:
This Age: In the present age (Greek "time"), Mark 10:30 Rulers:
This Age: Rulers of this age, 1 Cor. 2:6

If there is only this age, and the age to come, and consistently we see this age is things temporal and sinful, and the one to come is things eternal and sinless, where does the Millennium fit? I'm not denying scripture speaks of one, but I am suggesting that from the clear teaching of the '2 ages', we must put it in one or the other. Which leads me to my next 'problem'. But I might put it in a new post, or this one will get too long.

well given that the millenial kingdom will be inhabited by the survivors of the tribulation and they shall repopulate the earth, and that people will have until their 100th birthday to accept Christ or be killed, and that Jesus rules the kingdom with a rod of iron, I would put the millenial in this temporal age versus the eternal one.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Problem 2: Finding two distinct 'comings' of Christ in the last days. If we carefully look at all the passages that talk about Christ's second coming, I simply cannot understand how Dispensationalists separate them into a Rapture 'coming' and a 'second' coming. I know the drill of 'for his people and then with his people', but that seems to me nothing by fancy footwork. Let me show what I mean by scripture.

From my point of view, from the previous post, we have the future divided into two 'ages'. We are currently still in "this age", with "the age to come" future...it is described as where the righteous will receive "eternal life". Thus, we may mark 'the age to come' as eternity future. It has no end. That is important to note, especially when we look at verses like these:

Well that is a sad use of language! For the rapture is its own event and no tthe second coming of Jesus. The 2nd Coming occurs at the end of the 7 year tribulation period! It is a colloquial use of the word coming (I know many say that at teh rapture Jesus comes for His church and at His second coming He comes with His church). While that is technically correct, it is not grammatically correct. For the second coming is Jesus returning to earth and the rapture is Jesus descending either to the 1st or 2nd heaven and calls the church home.

These verses show there is A DAY that is set. "The LAST day" on which judgment comes. For both the righteous and wicked. The last day, when the resurrection of the dead will come. When would we say the 'last' day would be? I can't be in eternity, that has no end. It must be the end of this age, must it not? But as we look at more verses of His coming, we see even more of this 'day' being fleshed in. This day of judgment for the wicked and gathering for the elect, is also called 'the end of the age'...which is sort of self explanatory as far as 'when' goes. We know it is the same time/period/event because the same judgment/gathering of the righteous is being depicted.

Well there are several resurrections!

There is the resurrection of the dead IN CHRIST
There is the resurrection at the beginning of the millenium REv. 20
Then there is the final resurrection which is just for the lost who were not resurrected prior to the millenium.

The church goes through the Bema judgment for we are eternally secure.

Tribulation saints go through the sheep goat judgment for entrance into the millenium (only the saved enter)

Then comes the final resurrection where the lost are called up to be cast into the lake of fire.

Many forget that Jesus died for all! So all have immortality! So the bodies of the lost are called up, glorified with immortality, and cast into the lake of fire!

More later!

 

[Trekson]

Who was it, @Trekson that said they never heard a pre-tribber say that wrath isn't appointed to the Church in relation to a pre-trib rapture? Well, there it is.

Apostle Paul in 1 Thessalonians 5 was warning about the "day of the Lord" that will come "as a thief in the night". Paul said when the deceived say, "Peace and safety", then "sudden destruction" will come upon them. That means the cup of God's wrath on the FINAL DAY of this world, which is when the "day of the Lord" will occur. Apostle Peter confirmed this also in 2 Peter 3:10 about that day being the day of God's consuming fire burning man's works off the earth.

Thus the 'wrath' Paul is pointing to is God's cup of wrath upon the wicked on the last day. THAT is the wrath he said those in Christ are not appointed to.

So which 'wrath' GISMYS_7, are YOU pointing to?

C'mon Davy, get your facts straight, the only thing I have said about wrath is that I've never heard a pre-tribber acknowledge such a thing as "satan's wrath"! The Day of the Lord consists of many things and will last over a thousand years. 2 Pet. 3:10 is a "stand alone" verse. One should never make a theological stand on one verse alone.

 

[Davy]

Two questions for you Enoch: 1- what if the 'literal' reading of scripture calls for allegory? Or do you deny that the authors of the bible use imagery at all, in how they got their inspired messages across? If you deny that, you deny a good portion of scripture, especially parts you Dispensationalists like to focus on...like Daniel. It's fairly obvious Daniel uses imagery there. If you allow imagery, allegory, you've just called a good portion...Daniel again, fantasy.
Allegory and imagery doesn't mean we allow ourselves to imagine fantastic 'whatevers' out of the text. It means the text in question uses imagery to portray certain very literal truths. The readers job is to use scripture itself to understand what those images are speaking about. Does that sound fantastic?

Well said. Which allegory, and imagery is used in all languages, not just the Bible languages.

Below is a link to the 19th century Bible scholar E.W. Bullinger's Companion Bible Appendix 6 about Figures of Speech in The Bible. Bullinger published a separate work on these figures, which I think is still in print.

Figures of Speech - Appendix to the Companion Bible

 

[Davy]

The great tribulation is the wrath of God on this evil God rejecting world.

IF the great tribulation is the time of God's wrath upon this evil world, then WHY did Apostle Paul teach in 1 Thessalonians 5 that they (wicked)... will be saying, "Peace and safety" in that time?

1 Thess 5:3
3 For when they shall say, "Peace and safety"; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
KJV

So the wicked will love the "great tribulation" upon them? What does it usually mean when a people start yelling "Peace and safety"! It means exactly.... (drum roll please)... that! A time of PEACE and SAFETY!

Our Lord Jesus in Matthew 24:6 showed this time of peace for the very end of this world also, when He warned HIS to not be concerned as long as we hear of wars and rumors of wars, because the end is NOT yet. That means to be concerned when we start hearing about what? When the world starts saying "Peace and safety" like Paul showed.

That "Peace and safety" idea for the end is one of the SIGNS Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse; Paul was only repeating it.

And why did Lord Jesus in Mark 13 say in that time His servants would be hated by the whole world for His sake? And His faithful would be delivered up to councils and the synagogues of Satan to give a Testimony? What are Christ's servants even doing there in the tribulation, since you say the tribulation is God's Wrath that Paul was speaking about??? I thought Paul said Christ's servants are not appointed to 'wrath'??? Yet there they are... going through the tribulation like Lord Jesus showed in His Olivet discourse.

No, the great tribulation is NOT God's Wrath upon the wicked.
God's Wrath is His cup of Wrath poured out upon the wicked on the LAST DAY of this world, as that is the day Paul was pointing to in 1 Thessalonians 5:1-9.


Those on the Pre-trib Rapture lie NEVER quote the first part of 1 Thess.5 that Paul taught which goes with that 9th verse about not being appointed to wrath.

1 Thess 5:2-9
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, "Peace and safety"; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
KJV

The phrases in Green all go together and are about the same subject and timing, i.e., the "sudden destruction" upon the wicked on the LAST DAY of this world when Jesus returns "as a thief" like He said (Revelation 16:15).

 

[Naomi25]

@Naomi25 Interesting thoughts, yes... Of course, the verses you quoted from Galatians and Ephesians refer in part to those from a Jewish background who are - have already become - Christians now, rather than to those - as you rightly refer to - who will acknowledge the Messiah in the future.

Well...and must surely recognize him in the future, yes? I know Dispensationalists say that there is two separate 'plans' for Israel and the Church, but when we consider these verses AND Romans 11, how can we possibly say that anyone, Jew or Gentile, can come, now OR in the future, to God but by Christ. And if by Christ, then one body.
It doesn't matter if we believe that National Israel will be corporately bought back to God...there is still only one way: Christ. It doesn't matter if we believe that there is a future time when God will hand them a particular parcel of land to rule over...there is still only one way forward: through Christ. And if through Christ, then one body. That is what Paul tells us, and there is simply no other biblical allowance for salvation. No "two plans". Christ IS the plan.

 

[farouk]

Well...and must surely recognize him in the future, yes? I know Dispensationalists say that there is two separate 'plans' for Israel and the Church, but when we consider these verses AND Romans 11, how can we possibly say that anyone, Jew or Gentile, can come, now OR in the future, to God but by Christ. And if by Christ, then one body.
It doesn't matter if we believe that National Israel will be corporately bought back to God...there is still only one way: Christ. It doesn't matter if we believe that there is a future time when God will hand them a particular parcel of land to rule over...there is still only one way forward: through Christ. And if through Christ, then one body. That is what Paul tells us, and there is simply no other biblical allowance for salvation. No "two plans". Christ IS the plan.

Oh I agree about Christ the Way, indeed. There is also the matter of the bride of Christ and the wife of Jehovah, as variously defined.

 

[Naomi25]

@Naomi25 Some passages refer to events in summary; others give a lot of detail. For example, John's Gospel gives a lot of detail to the upper room ministry but does not refer to the Lord's Supper directly; other Gospels give a lot of detail to the Lord's Supper. It's not a question of inaccuracy but of emphasis, as led by the Spirit of God. I guess one could make a similar comment about various passages of eschatological significance.

I don't disagree that some books emphasize certain details while others only mention them. However, you would think if there were two separate events, that that would still clearly come across in said summary and/or emphases. My point is that in all these verses that speak of Christ's return, no matter how it is termed in scripture, there are clear elements of overlap, which tells us that a doctrine built around 2 separate returns becomes most difficult to support.

 

[Naomi25]

No, we both agree in the imagery of Scripture. But where allegorists go off and why is beyond my understanding.

So...wait. You freely confess you really don't know why or where covenantal theologians go for their imagery interpretation, and yet you feel quite happy to declare them false, foolish, fanatical and deceptive.
Do you not see the disconnect here?

Yes and we believe that all biblical imagery and symbolism is defined by Scripture itself. Where we differ is what it means. And not knowing you I do not know you rposition on the future of the nation of Israel. That is usually where the biggest reinterpretations come from.

You felt you knew me well enough, based on my 'covenantal' status alone, to declare me deceptive.
While I believe that speaks more to you than it does to me, I can, it seems, tell you all you wish to know about me and how I 'interpret' things: Romans 11:26: "and in this way, all Israel will be saved".
Absolutely do I believe there is a future for Israel. Absolutely do I see God doing a work in what we now call National Israel, as he brings untold number of them to him. But here's the thing; Rom 11 is also quite clear on how he does that: he brings them to Christ. One body:

This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel. -Ephesians 3:6

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise. -Galatians 3:28–29

Romans 11 clearly tells us that the 'olive tree' (Israel), who is connected to the 'holy root' (Christ) has had some of its branches (unbelieving Israel) broken off. Believing Gentiles have been grafted onto the olive tree and Christ (the holy root) making believing Israel and believing Gentiles one body. Paul then tells us that unbelieving Jews can, and will be grafted back onto the olive tree.
Now, I don't particularly care if you want to call the 'olive tree' Israel or the church, and whether that makes the 'believers' 'true Israel' or whatever, especially as all this terminology seems to set off the 'replacement theology' crazies. The simple fact is: this is clear, unavoidable biblical truth. The 'Church' has not 'replaced' Israel, it has been adopted into her. Christ, who is at the root of believing Israel, as he must be, as 'no one comes to the Father but by me', must be the 'route' by which a person is born again. No-one, Jew or Gentile, will be saved otherwise. In other words, WHEN that future time comes when God gathers national Israel back to himself, it will be through Christ...by grafting them back into the root of the Olive tree. They will become one body.

If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree. -Romans 11:16–24

Also, I feel the need to let you know, since you both declare bafflement and disdain over how 'covenantals' interpret imagery, that our general rule of thumb is: the bible interprets the bible. It's not a very difficult rule to either understand or come across, so I'm not sure how you missed it or misunderstood it. Therefore, when it comes to books like Daniel or Revelation, we let scripture interpret for us. In Daniel it is, of course, easier, as the interpretations as usually immediately following the visions. But even in Revelation, its not hard to seek out and find overt references to almost exact imagery used in the OT that is already interpreted for us BY SCRIPTURE.

Where does it fit? It is the kingdom promised to Israel, it is the kingdom Jesus establishes on earth! The length is opnly mentioned one place:

Revelation 20
King James Version

20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Okay, putting aside, for a second, the *promise to Israel and the *Kingdom Jesus will establish, you're attempting to prove, hard and fast, the length, time-wise of this kingdom, based solely upon a book in which numbers are used symbolically?
Let's look, for a second, at the number '1000'. It's used once in Rev. But elsewhere in scripture, how do we see it being used? Is there precedence for it being used symbolically? Yes.

Psalm 50:10 - For every beast of the forest is mine, the cattle on a thousand hills.

Unless we want to say that God does NOT own the cattle after the 1000th hill, we can see its symbolic use here; its saying he owns all the cattle. His ownership is a...fullness of quantity.

Psalm 84:10 - For a day in your courts is better than a thousand elsewhere. I would rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God than dwell in the tents of wickedness.

Again, the 1001th day in his court sucks? Of course not, joy is everlasting and completely full in God's courts.

2 Peter 3:8 - But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Psalm 90:4 - For a thousand years in your sight are but as yesterday when it is past, or as a watch in the night.

Time, for God, moves differently. When he reaches the fullness of his time, the completeness of his plan, time will be done.

But, many say, Revelation does NOT use numbers symbolically! Most Dispensationalists admit that it does, denying only the 1000 years is symbolic, but some, recognizing that to draw a single line for a single number is stretching it, try to deny the symbology of all numbers in the book. This, however, is a mistake, as they are clearly used in this fashion.
4-the 4 corners of the globe-the whole earth - the effects of the 4 horsemen cover the whole earth.
7-perfection - 7 days of creation, 7th year was a sabbatical year of rest, 7 times of forgiving was elevated to 70 x 7 by Jesus - 7 appears again and again in Revelation, showing that the judgments of God are perfect in righteousness and in proportionality.
12-symbolizes God's power and authority, as well as serving as a perfect governmental foundation. It can also symbolize completeness or the nation of Israel as a whole - 12 tribes of Israel, 12 apostles - 24 seats around the throne of God in Revelation, thought by most to be made up of those 2 '12'. Those 2 groups of '12' also found in the foudations of the New Jerusalem.

I could go on, but needless to say, numbers play a symbolic role in scripture at large and especially in Revelation. This DOES NOT mean that the things they are speaking of are not true and real. 7 seal judgements are still talking about real things. But God, sovereignly, chooses to do things that way, where numbers at times can mean more than just numeral values.

My point being, relying solely on a single reference of a number in a book where numbers are used in a greater way than just "it will be this long", is not a valid or strong argument.

 

[Naomi25]

Where does it fit? It is the kingdom promised to Israel, it is the kingdom Jesus establishes on earth!

As far as the claim that Jesus has "yet" to set up a kingdom. I ask, what is he doing now? How do you explain, if you please, these verses?

Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, “The kingdom of God is not coming in ways that can be observed, nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.” -Luke 17:20–21

that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all. -Ephesians 1:20–23

For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. -1 Corinthians 15:27

He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs...
But of the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom. -Hebrews 1:3–4,8

and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority. -Colossians 2:10

So then the Lord Jesus, after he had spoken to them, was taken up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God. -Mark 16:19

who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him. -1 Peter 3:22

But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. -Matthew 12:28

It sounds very much to me as if Christ is already ruling, over powers and authorities. When he 'sat at the right hand of the Father' and God said "your throne, oh God, is forever", that should be enough. But Jesus has already told us that the Kingdom is 'in our midst' and that it will come 'in a way we cannot observe'.
That's why when we read this:

Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. -1 Corinthians 15:24–26

We know without doubt that AT his return, when he defeats death at the Rapture, that's when the 'kingdom'...the Millennium, is 'handed over'. Christ's Kingdom becomes the Fathers Kingdom of eternity.

As far as the "Jews promised future land", I would point to this;

For all the promises of God find their Yes in him. That is why it is through him that we utter our Amen to God for his glory. -2 Corinthians 1:20

For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith. For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void. For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.
That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist. In hope he believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations, as he had been told, “So shall your offspring be.” -Romans 4:13–18

Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. -Galatians 3:16

And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise. -Galatians 3:29

The NT tells us that if Abraham hadn't accepted God's promises to him with faith, no one, especially Gentiles, would be able to benefit from them. But that also includes Jews.
It also tells us that all promises are found IN Christ. All promises are, in fact, MADE to Christ....as in truth, he was the only one who was worthy to receive them. So, Jew OR Gentile, promise made to Abraham or found IN Christ, the promise is, essentially, the same. And what, in truth, is that?

But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city... And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.
-Hebrews 11:16,39–40

Can you, do you think, find a single NT verse that corroborates the idea that the Jews will have their own, future homeland? Because, considering the considerable amount of new 'mystery' information that comes to light because of Christ's coming, you would think it would be important for that to happen, or for it to have been mentioned at least once, don't you think?

 

[Naomi25]

Then after the millenial kingdom- comes the eternal order!

But during the millenial Satan is abyssed. and the Antichrist and the False prophet after they are defeated at the physical return of Jesus become the first two residents of the eternal lake of fire!

Hmmm. Okay. Here's a question for you. If 1 Cor 15 tells us that death is defeated AT Christ's second coming, how come in Rev 20 we only see death being tossed into the lake of fire (ie, defeated) AFTER the Millennium...where, apparently, death still holds some sway.
Those two things don't add up.

well given that the millenial kingdom will be inhabited by the survivors of the tribulation and they shall repopulate the earth, and that people will have until their 100th birthday to accept Christ or be killed, and that Jesus rules the kingdom with a rod of iron, I would put the millenial in this temporal age versus the eternal one.

Clearly. So...you think it's just an 'extra age' being snuck in there?
Okay, let me ask you this then: you say that the millennial Kingdom will be 'populated by the survivors of the tribulation', right? Let's take a little look at what the bible says about Christ's second coming for a second, and see if its at ALL viable for people to have 'survived' this event in their natural bodies.


“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. -Matthew 24:29–31

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats....Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world...“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels....And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” -Matthew 25:31–32,34,41,46

But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death.... I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:
“Death is swallowed up in victory.”
“O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?” -1 Corinthians 15:23–26,50–55

For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.-1 Thessalonians 4:15–17

Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, -2 Thessalonians 2:1–9

They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.” For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly....
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed. -2 Peter 3:4–7,10

I have highlighted the word 'comes/coming' in red, as it highlights, I think, a serious flaw in Dispensationalism...mainly, that scripture doesn't distinguish between Christ's 'comings'...it terms it the same...that leaves man to insert specific situations they desire into it the texts and the phrases. The texts don't give us that wiggle room.
Anyway, if we look at these texts, we can see that there is a problem. At Christ's return all evil men are judged and moved to their 'eternal' destination. You would say 'not a problem', as no unsaved person 'populates the Millennium. The problem for you is the same texts state that ALL mankind is judged and moved on to their 'eternal' situation. The Rapture can be linked with the 'death of death', and unless you change your tune, I believe you still say death 'gets some' in the Millennium. When you put the passages about the Rapture, the judgments and the dissolving of the cosmos AT his return together, how on earth can you possibly say that ANYONE will enter the Millennium in their natural state? They are either already Raptured AT his coming (regardless of what time you put this in), or have stood before the judgment seat and been moved onto their righteous eternal home.
It just can't happen.

By the way....I'm thus far a little disappointed in your answers. Are you sure you've been teaching this for '2 decades?'

 

[Naomi25]

Well that is a sad use of language! For the rapture is its own event and no tthe second coming of Jesus. The 2nd Coming occurs at the end of the 7 year tribulation period! It is a colloquial use of the word coming (I know many say that at teh rapture Jesus comes for His church and at His second coming He comes with His church). While that is technically correct, it is not grammatically correct. For the second coming is Jesus returning to earth and the rapture is Jesus descending either to the 1st or 2nd heaven and calls the church home.



Well there are several resurrections!

There is the resurrection of the dead IN CHRIST
There is the resurrection at the beginning of the millenium REv. 20
Then there is the final resurrection which is just for the lost who were not resurrected prior to the millenium.

The church goes through the Bema judgment for we are eternally secure.

Tribulation saints go through the sheep goat judgment for entrance into the millenium (only the saved enter)

Then comes the final resurrection where the lost are called up to be cast into the lake of fire.

Many forget that Jesus died for all! So all have immortality! So the bodies of the lost are called up, glorified with immortality, and cast into the lake of fire!

More later!

I'm sorry. I was under the impression you were a teacher...didn't you brag about that when you were scolding me? Do you honestly expect me to simply take your word in such things? Especially after I have taken...considerable time to present biblical verses and ideas? If this was just going to be an exchange of 'i think/you think' I could have been done in ten minutes or less, as it seems you've been.
I certainly hope you give more time and effort to your 'students'.
I find nothing academically convincing in your thoughts, nothing slightly theologically solid in your attempt to make your case. And the fact that in our conversation you've quoted (1) bible verse to me, should be devastating. To you...and to your claim you're a teacher.
I very much hope you've had a very busy day and can, in some depth, show me otherwise, but I'm feeling quite deflated. I had hoped that a Dispensationalist would finally step up and make some sort of a sensible attempt at defending their doctrine. This...this is why many don't take them seriously.

 

[Naomi25]

Oh I agree about Christ the Way, indeed. There is also the matter of the bride of Christ and the wife of Jehovah, as variously defined.

But we see 'wife of Jehovah' under the old covenant, right? And it was the same Jehovah who told this 'wife' about the 'new covenant he would make with them. We know this new covenant to be the one Christ made. That links them, the 'wife' directly to the 'bride' under the promised new covenant.
As nice as it might be to have a neatly divided plan of 'two peoples', we can't escape the fact that God, in his loving mercy, had a single one of unity all along. And surely, isn't it better for us all to be one people under Christ? Didn't we learn about the dangers of two spouses in the OT?

 

[Naomi25]

You teach eschatology, but you mis-spell it?

You noticed that too, hmm?