John Darby

[Keraz]

Silence from Enoch111.
But will he change his mind, having had the truth spelled out? Not likely and neither will Gismys, as their minds are closed to to what will actually happen during the end times.

As the world approaches the commencement of the end times events, it is just as prophesied; Scoffers say: When will these things happen? Everything goes on exactly as it always has done. 2 Peter 3:4. Paul says in Acts 13:41 Look you scoffers, marvel and begone, for the Lord will act in your time, doing a deed which you will never believe when you are told of it. Deuteronomy 29:4, Isaiah 28:21, Isaiah 56:10-11
But the verse that most clearly explains why there is so much misinterpretation and false teaching is: Matthew 11:25-26 Jesus prophesied: Father you hide these things from the learned and reveal them to the simple. Yes Father, for that is Your good will.

‘the learned’, those taught in the Seminaries and Bible colleges. 1 Timothy 1:7.

‘the simple’, those who rely only on the truth of the Word. John 8:31-32]

No wonder there is such confusion! 2 Timothy 3:1-7

Isaiah 29:9-12 If you confuse yourself, you will stay confused…the prophetic vision of it all is like a sealed book to you.
This passage tells us that those who have believed a false teaching, are made incapable of understanding the truth. I often encounter this problem; I present a plainly written Bible prophesy and people say: ‘I just can’t see it’. Or they say: ‘that is past history’, which it obviously isn’t. So the reality is; no amount of truth presented will change the beliefs of someone who has chosen to believe a false theory or doctrine.

Those who promote the truth of the Prophetic Word, are also up against sheer apathy and a straight out desire of some to NOT know what will happen.

Daniel 12:9-10 …the Words are to be kept secret until the time of the end… Therefore all commentaries, teachings, doctrines, books, etc, up until now have some degree of error. God does not want many to know His plans.

Then:…only the wise leaders will understand. It seems that ‘wise’ is used here in the sense of a person willing to put aside all man’s ideas, theories and non-Biblical teachings. There can be some difficulty with the prophesies as to the right meaning of allegories and metaphors and also translators bias can be a problem. Logic and common sense, along with a careful study of all the Prophetic Word, must be the way to understand correctly.

If a literal fulfilment is possible, we should take the prophesies literally and then it is just a matter of getting the sequence correct. The Seals, Trumpets and Bowls of Revelation are undoubtedly a sequence of events, as the Scroll is opened, unrolled and read. It is patently obvious that the first five Seals have been opened, perhaps as John looked on, in 95 CE. All the martyred saints from then until Jesus Returns, still await their vindication. Revelation 6:9-11

Next to come is the world changer: the Sixth Seal, the great and terrible Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath. That literal Day will be a sudden and shocking worldwide fiery devastation. Isaiah 30:26, Malachi 4:1, Zephaniah 3:8, Rev 6:12-17.

Millions will die, but all those true believers in the Creator God and who stand firm in their faith and call out to Jesus, their Saviour and Redeemer – will be protected. Joel 3:32, Proverbs 3:25-26, Acts 2:21

I believe the story of the three men in the furnace of Daniel 3:24-27 is the example that shows how the Lord will save and protect His people on that Day.
Isaiah 43:2b…when you pass through fire you will not be scorched, through flames and they will not burn you. Psalm 23:4, Psalm 91:11, Proverbs 3:25, Isaiah 51:6, Isaiah 54:16-17, Jeremiah 30:7, Joel 3:16, Zechariah 9:16, 2 Peter 3:7, 1 Thess. 5:9, Romans 9:22-25, Revelation 7:3

 

[Truther]

Silence from Enoch111.
But will he change his mind, having had the truth spelled out? Not likely and neither will Gismys, as their minds are closed to to what will actually happen during the end times.

As the world approaches the commencement of the end times events, it is just as prophesied; Scoffers say: When will these things happen? Everything goes on exactly as it always has done. 2 Peter 3:4. Paul says in Acts 13:41 Look you scoffers, marvel and begone, for the Lord will act in your time, doing a deed which you will never believe when you are told of it. Deuteronomy 29:4, Isaiah 28:21, Isaiah 56:10-11
But the verse that most clearly explains why there is so much misinterpretation and false teaching is: Matthew 11:25-26 Jesus prophesied: Father you hide these things from the learned and reveal them to the simple. Yes Father, for that is Your good will.

‘the learned’, those taught in the Seminaries and Bible colleges. 1 Timothy 1:7.

‘the simple’, those who rely only on the truth of the Word. John 8:31-32]

No wonder there is such confusion! 2 Timothy 3:1-7

Isaiah 29:9-12 If you confuse yourself, you will stay confused…the prophetic vision of it all is like a sealed book to you.
This passage tells us that those who have believed a false teaching, are made incapable of understanding the truth. I often encounter this problem; I present a plainly written Bible prophesy and people say: ‘I just can’t see it’. Or they say: ‘that is past history’, which it obviously isn’t. So the reality is; no amount of truth presented will change the beliefs of someone who has chosen to believe a false theory or doctrine.

Those who promote the truth of the Prophetic Word, are also up against sheer apathy and a straight out desire of some to NOT know what will happen.

Daniel 12:9-10 …the Words are to be kept secret until the time of the end… Therefore all commentaries, teachings, doctrines, books, etc, up until now have some degree of error. God does not want many to know His plans.

Then:…only the wise leaders will understand. It seems that ‘wise’ is used here in the sense of a person willing to put aside all man’s ideas, theories and non-Biblical teachings. There can be some difficulty with the prophesies as to the right meaning of allegories and metaphors and also translators bias can be a problem. Logic and common sense, along with a careful study of all the Prophetic Word, must be the way to understand correctly.

If a literal fulfilment is possible, we should take the prophesies literally and then it is just a matter of getting the sequence correct. The Seals, Trumpets and Bowls of Revelation are undoubtedly a sequence of events, as the Scroll is opened, unrolled and read. It is patently obvious that the first five Seals have been opened, perhaps as John looked on, in 95 CE. All the martyred saints from then until Jesus Returns, still await their vindication. Revelation 6:9-11

Next to come is the world changer: the Sixth Seal, the great and terrible Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath. That literal Day will be a sudden and shocking worldwide fiery devastation. Isaiah 30:26, Malachi 4:1, Zephaniah 3:8, Rev 6:12-17.

Millions will die, but all those true believers in the Creator God and who stand firm in their faith and call out to Jesus, their Saviour and Redeemer – will be protected. Joel 3:32, Proverbs 3:25-26, Acts 2:21

I believe the story of the three men in the furnace of Daniel 3:24-27 is the example that shows how the Lord will save and protect His people on that Day.
Isaiah 43:2b…when you pass through fire you will not be scorched, through flames and they will not burn you. Psalm 23:4, Psalm 91:11, Proverbs 3:25, Isaiah 51:6, Isaiah 54:16-17, Jeremiah 30:7, Joel 3:16, Zechariah 9:16, 2 Peter 3:7, 1 Thess. 5:9, Romans 9:22-25, Revelation 7:3

Is God going to put a force field around believers in the tribulation? Will they have to watch unsaved loved ones annihilated by God's wrath as they find peace?
Then the antichrist is allowed past the force field to kill them in Rev 14?

 

[Enoch111]

Per Rev.19, the marriage supper doesn't take place until after... Jesus' return to earth. The Revelation 19:1-8 verses are AFTER the Babylon harlot is destroyed. How could you miss that?

I missed nothing. I questioned the absurdity of having the Resurrection/Rapture at the same time as the Second Coming (per Naomi and possibly others). Since that would simply ignore the Marriage of the Lamb, which is an extremely important event. And that is why the Pre-Tribulation Rapture is the only proper way to understand these events.

 

[Enoch111]

The marriage Supper will happen, we just are not told when or where. I believe it will be in Jerusalem...

Yet another absurdity. It is perfectly clear in Revelation 19 that the Marriage of the Lamb is (1) in Heaven, and (2) before the Second Coming of Christ. So how in the world could it be in Jerusalem? Had you said "the New Jerusalem" (which is a heavenly city) that would have been perfectly fine.

Prior to the Second Coming, Jerusalem on earth is under siege by the Antichrist and his armies. And that is the reason for the battle of Armageddon (also described in Revelation 19).

 

[Naomi25]

Yet another absurdity. It is perfectly clear in Revelation 19 that the Marriage of the Lamb is (1) in Heaven, and (2) before the Second Coming of Christ. So how in the world could it be in Jerusalem? Had you said "the New Jerusalem" (which is a heavenly city) that would have been perfectly fine.

Prior to the Second Coming, Jerusalem on earth is under siege by the Antichrist and his armies. And that is the reason for the battle of Armageddon (also described in Revelation 19).

I missed nothing. I questioned the absurdity of having the Resurrection/Rapture at the same time as the Second Coming (per Naomi and possibly others). Since that would simply ignore the Marriage of the Lamb, which is an extremely important event. And that is why the Pre-Tribulation Rapture is the only proper way to understand these events.

Once again Enoch, you disparage but provide zero evidence but your own assertions that your point of view is correct.
As a general rule, Christians ought to set their beliefs by scripture, don't you agree? So I find it a tad disingenuous that you would dismiss the questions and points of contestation put to you with nothing more than a 'you're foolish because I'm right'.
IF you truly believe your doctrine is correct and can be backed up by scripture, then prove it. If you cannot answer these questions, then why on earth do you not question it yourself? If I held to a belief and could not answer many difficult, but important questions, I would question it. My ONLY goal, in my own personal walk or here, is to find the truth. Sometimes that comes through 'iron sharpening iron' with others, that makes me question myself. And sometimes my beliefs are made more firm because of it. Neither gives me a crisis of faith or identity. Only God's truth matters, and that is what I seek.
Why don't you?

 

[Keraz]

Is God going to put a force field around believers in the tribulation? Will they have to watch unsaved loved ones annihilated by God's wrath as they find peace?
Then the antichrist is allowed past the force field to kill them in Rev 14?

Yes; God will put a 'seal' on the 144,000 and during the 3 1/2 year; 1260 day GT, and those Christians who have kept their faith and trust in God will be kept in a place of safety, on earth. Revelation 12:14

The protection the Lord will give to all the Christians who stand strong in their faith at the Sixth Seal world wide disaster by fire from the sun, will be that same as He did for the 3 men in the furnace. Isaiah 43:2

 

[Davy]

I missed nothing. I questioned the absurdity of having the Resurrection/Rapture at the same time as the Second Coming (per Naomi and possibly others). Since that would simply ignore the Marriage of the Lamb, which is an extremely important event. And that is why the Pre-Tribulation Rapture is the only proper way to understand these events.

Well no, the marriage taking place immediately after Jesus' return and beginning reign with His elect definitely is not... absurd.

Apparently you haven't read Isaiah 25:5-9 about God making a feast of fat things unto all people.

The doctrine of men you are following has blinded you away from several Scriptures about that future feast with The Lord...

Luke 22:28-30
28 Ye are they which have continued with Me in My temptations.
29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as My Father hath appointed unto Me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
KJV

That timing of that has to be during Christ's future Millennium reign, because their sitting on thrones over the 12 tribes means on earth, and after the children of Israel have been gathered back to the land of their fathers.

Matt 8:11-12
11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
KJV

That sitting down is about sitting at table with Christ after His return with His kingdom manifest on earth (that is where the heavenly is going to manifest when Jesus comes).

Luke 12:36-37
36 And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.
37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.
KJV

Lord Jesus was talking about the marriage feast there that is to take place after His return. And the previous verses include the subject of the kingdom of Israel, so this is not about some event up in the clouds while the tribulation is going on. This is Millennial timing.

Luke 22:16
16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.
KJV

Luke 22:18
18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.
KJV

That also is about that future feast with Lord Jesus at His table in the kingdom of God. Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are going to be sitting there at that table, like He showed in Matthew 8.

 

[Truther]

Davy said: ↑
Per Rev.19, the marriage supper doesn't take place until after... Jesus' return to earth. The Revelation 19:1-8 verses are AFTER the Babylon harlot is destroyed. How could you miss that?


The second coming is after the marriage. It is easy to see in Rev 19. Do not read it from the bottom up.

 

[Truther]

Yes; God will put a 'seal' on the 144,000 and during the 3 1/2 year; 1260 day GT, and those Christians who have kept their faith and trust in God will be kept in a place of safety, on earth. Revelation 12:14

The protection the Lord will give to all the Christians who stand strong in their faith at the Sixth Seal world wide disaster by fire from the sun, will be that same as He did for the 3 men in the furnace. Isaiah 43:2

There are only 144,000 believers in the tribulation?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

The ONLY 'fire' those in Christ face is the denial of self that leads to service and self sacrifice, even in the face of a physical death. Which may sound like a lot...but when weighed against the 'unquenchable fire of eternal judgement'...well, we're not really speaking about the same thing at all.

I don’t know. ‘each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work.

1 Peter 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

 

[GISMYS_7]

I don’t know. ‘each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work.

1 Peter 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

Born-again believers will only be judged for what rewards they will receive NOT for salvation which they already have!

 

[VictoryinJesus]

As much as the idea of 'redemption for all' is comforting,

why is the thought comforting. Not many ‘ideas’ or ‘thoughts’ are comforting.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Born-again believers will only be judged for what rewards they will receive NOT for salvation which they already have!

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

doubtfully the reward worth waiting for is cursing.Revelation 22:12-14 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. [13] I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. [14] Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Matthew 6:1-2 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. [2] Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

Matthew 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

 

[Davy]

Davy said: ↑
Per Rev.19, the marriage supper doesn't take place until after... Jesus' return to earth. The Revelation 19:1-8 verses are AFTER the Babylon harlot is destroyed. How could you miss that?


The second coming is after the marriage. It is easy to see in Rev 19. Do not read it from the bottom up.

You need to look again and correct yourself according God's Word as written, instead trying to make God's Word agree with men's doctrines.

The timeline when the marriage supper is mentioned in Rev.19 is AFTER the "great whore" is destroyed, and her smoke rises, and God is reigning (put for Christ's Millennial reign of Rev.20). Those Rev.19:1-9 verses are NOT about a pre-trib rapture marriage supper in Heaven before the tribulation. They are post-Babylon harlot destruction timing.

But the Rev.19:11-21 verses are "day of the Lord" timing, which is the day when Jesus returns to gather His saints and do battle against the wicked, ending this present world.

 

[Enoch111]

Well no, the marriage taking place immediately after Jesus' return and beginning reign with His elect definitely is not... absurd.

Follow the sequence of Revelation 19 to see that once again you are way off base.

 

[Davy]

Follow the sequence of Revelation 19 to see that once again you are way off base.

You make a false accusation yet again. The flow of Rev.19 is the destruction of the "great whore" and then the marriage supper. Then John bowing to the angel by mistake, and then a description of Christ's 2nd coming on the "day of the Lord". So how can Christ's coming to destroy be AFTER the "great whore" is ALREADY destroyed??? To put Rev.19 in the order YOU WANT it to say, is a strong contradiction of the Scripture against itself! Keep the actual timeline the Rev.19 chapter shows, and it then the flow of the chapter is made simple.

 

[Truther]

You need to look again and correct yourself according God's Word as written, instead trying to make God's Word agree with men's doctrines.

The timeline when the marriage supper is mentioned in Rev.19 is AFTER the "great whore" is destroyed, and her smoke rises, and God is reigning (put for Christ's Millennial reign of Rev.20). Those Rev.19:1-9 verses are NOT about a pre-trib rapture marriage supper in Heaven before the tribulation. They are post-Babylon harlot destruction timing.

But the Rev.19:11-21 verses are "day of the Lord" timing, which is the day when Jesus returns to gather His saints and do battle against the wicked, ending this present world.

The whore of Rev 18 is Rome. This has nothing to do with the supper in chapter 19. Rome is destroyed during the tribulation, not by the return of Christ.

 

[Naomi25]

I don’t know. ‘each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work.

1 Peter 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

Again, context is key when regarding what sort of 'refining fire' scripture is speaking about.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. In this you rejoice, though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been grieved by various trials, so that the tested genuineness of your faith—more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire—may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ. Though you have not seen him, you love him. Though you do not now see him, you believe in him and rejoice with joy that is inexpressible and filled with glory, obtaining the outcome of your faith, the salvation of your souls. -1 Peter 1:3–9

You can see that the imagery of fire here is being used in the sense of 'refining'. And the context is one of a Christian (clearly, as it states new birth through Christ and then details the 'inheritance kept by God's power in heaven') enduring hardships upon earth which makes our faith, trust and endurance more sure and, I suppose, set. It brings us closer...our works, deeds and thoughts, closer to the love we have of Christ.
But it is clearly not speaking of any coming actual fire that we or our deeds must experience.

And again, the context:

According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw—each one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. -1 Corinthians 3:10–15

Again, fire is being used in context with 'refining'...stripping away dross, or, we could say 'chaff' of our deeds here on earth. Basically it's telling us that on the Day of Lord, when we stand before Christ, our deeds will be laid bare for what they are, just as fire would reveal the difference between metal and hay.

But there is a clear difference between the 'fire' used in these examples and imagery, and the 'eternal, unquenchable fire' that those not 'in Christ' will face on this same day. We can see from the verses above that these people have not even built their works on the foundation stone. Christians may live foolishly and have their poor works displayed on that day, but if they are still in Christ, these works are still, bad as they may be, built upon the solid foundation of Christ. People who reject Christ build upon nothing...or perhaps it is more appropriate to say that they build their works upon their own foundation. They stand before Christ with their own means and attempts to reach God, rather than relying on the blood of Christ, which does what man never could and covers our 'multitude of sins'.

 

[Naomi25]

why is the thought comforting. Not many ‘ideas’ or ‘thoughts’ are comforting.

Mmmm. Not sure I understand you here.
Personally, I find many ideas and thoughts comforting; especially if I can know that they are true....and that's the certainty scripture gives us.
I know the doctrine of 'hell' is distressing to many. Thus, the 'idea' that it has been widely misunderstood and no one will ever really have to endure hell for eternity is 'comforting'. However, for me, personally, I find it really comes down to two things: what can I see the bible clearly teaching, and then do I trust God to hold something I don't truly understand and perhaps feel distressed over.
The answer to the first is, yes, I see hell taught in scripture. And the second is a resounding yes. In fact, I'm glad there are things about God and his purposes that I do not...cannot understand. It means God is worthy of worship. If I had a God who could be perceived and fully understood by my severely limited self, he wouldn't really be God, he would be a small sky fairy.
So, I study his word and trust him. If it turns out that my reading of his word was wrong, I suppose I'll be pleasantly surprised. If not, then my trust and faith in him will not be wavered.

 

[Davy]

The whore of Rev 18 is Rome. This has nothing to do with the supper in chapter 19. Rome is destroyed during the tribulation, not by the return of Christ.

That's funny, you can't even keep to the subject and object of the Revelation 19 chapter!

Rev 19:2-9
2 For true and righteous are His judgments: for He hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of His servants at her hand.
3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God That sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.
5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye His servants, and ye that fear Him, both small and great.
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to Him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and His wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
KJV

The "great whore" definitely is NOT... Rome. It is about the beast setup in power in Jerusalem on earth for the end of this world.