John Calvin and Calvinism.
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Exactly. We can even say that of God Himself. We can know about Him from what He says in His Word, but truly knowing Him is quite a different thing. I'm surely not discounting the importance of knowing about Him, but it is far more important to truly know Him.
Grace and peace.
Actually PS, I don't really care about what type of personality Calvin had.
I care about what he taught because I believe it to be heretical.
Heretical just means that it's contrary to orthodox Christian teaching...and, in fact,
the reformed faith is the only faith that teaches what is does --- Calvin's teachings and the teachings of the WCF.
I'm interested in trying hard to understand how anyone could believe what Calvin taught.
Especially since this was not taught in the early church...
Wouldn't the Apostles and those that were taught by the Apostles know what Jesus taught?
Could you imagine if I came to this site proclaiming the teachings of.....Aquinas, maybe.
AND using the CCC? The Catechism of the Catholic Church.
I know that scripture is also used, but it's so misunderstood that I marvel at how it could be
understood the way that it is.
This is why I like to discuss specific verse, but I find this is difficult to do because we end up doing
verse swapping instead of discussing any particular one.
And I don't like discussing Servetes because there's conflicting historical information about this matter.
Some historians believe that, although Calvin was happy to get rid of him, he did try to convince the state to change the method of death.
I think both Catholics and Protestants have acted atrociously throughout history...beginning after 325AD when faith and state mixed.
Michael Servetus | Spanish theologian
You're joking of course.
We should dump the WCF just like I'd love to dump the CCC. (I'm not Catholic but have taught from it).
As to Calvin....
Why have your faith on God depend on a man born in the 1500's and with whom no one in the early church agreed?
He received his bible degree from Augustine (400AD) and just loves him,
but no ECF agreed with Augustine! His ideas were totally novel and might probably have been influenced by gnosticism.
Why would Calvin agree with Augustine and not Ignatius of Antioch - who knew John and Peter, for instance?
Wouldn't Ignatius know more than Calvin?
And why believe in a faith paradigm with which no other faith paradigm agrees?
What is it about Calvinism that makes sense to you?
Why do you prefer a God of hatred for His creatures than a God of love for His creatures?
Why do you love a God that destines some to hell with no chance of forgiveness or salvation,
and others He destines to heaven, for no reason at all other than that He wants to?
dump the WCF???? Whew!!! We got a lively one here.
So first off, why calvinism?? Because its 100% Biblical.
Secondly, why do i love a God that predestined everything and everyone?? Because only He knows how all of this will end. You seem to think God loves everyone, that is just not true. heres a simple explanation of God’s love. He loves kids, He hates abortion. Why would He hate something? Because abortion is anti-children. He loves children so He must hate abortion. Its the same for people. He hates sin, but He loves those He chose to save. Because He hates sin, He must hate sinners. That is fair and just. Thats the God i want in control.
thirdly, you kum bye yah types got it all wrong about God. You think salvation is sooooo simple and then everything is fine just because YOU have “assurance.” Your assurance is only for you, God’s plan, also known as perseverance of the saints, is His promise to us. You make salvation about you, instead of the Lord.
Fourth, you deny calvinism. Why? Pride mostly. The fact that Jesus had to come down to earth as a human and be tortured and hung on a cross in order that we could be saved, is proof of our total depravity.
I’m not a Calvinist , but my pastor and most of my church is. They are more right on most things than other churches, that I wouldn’t think of going to a different church.
A label is of little value, unless you understand what it means.
Being labeled as a Calvinist is important because it defines your understanding of two important aspects of Christianity:
1. The nature of God.
2. Soteriology - or Salvation economy.
What you believe about the two listed above will color everything you read in the bible, especially the N.T. since Jesus teaches us how to become saved.
That's just it; Augustine, Luther, Calvin, and Edwards (and all those that have come after) were (are) not wrong about God's nature, because of what God Himself says about His nature, in His Word. Getting God's nature wrong is precisely the problem, though, and that's exactly what Pelagius and Arminius (and all those who have come after) did (do).
Grace and peace to you, GG.
Hi LL,
You're answering some questions here....
The first one was why you believe Calvin since no one in the early church believed in predestination and every theologian in the early church believed in free will.
You answer is that it's 100% biblical.
How could it be biblical if NO ONE after the resurrection of Jesus and for the FIRST YEARS of Christianity, it was not even considered?
Are you saying John Calvin saw something in the N.T. that those that came right after Jesus did not notice??
God certainly knows how everything will end....
and it will end the way HE wants it to.
Because we may mean it for evil...but God means it for good...and if HE means something for good it'll turn out good no matter what choice we make....and, of course, choice means we have a free will - you know, a TRUE free will.
And because God KNOWS how everything will turn out,
does not mean that He must predestine every little atom and the movement of every dust mite that floats in the air. (John Piper).
The God you want in control is a dictator.
One that does what He will with His creatures.
This is NOT a fair and just God.
A fair and just God is a God that gives to each human what that person DESERVES.
Because we are born sinful, God gave us the choice to believe on His Son or not to believe.
Those that believe and live accordingly DESERVE to be with God.
Those that do not believe and live a lawless life (Matthew 5:23) will not be with God.
This is a just God....
not one that picks humans at random and for no reason at all.....
one that does not give us the change to be saved, if we so want to be because HE wants to do the choosing, unjust choosing at that.
For God SO LOVED THE WORLD (everyone in the world) that He sent His only Son.
No need to send His only Son to die for mankind if God is going to do the choosing.
You don't know what TYPE I am.
I answer to your posts and make no assumptions about you.
Please do the same.
I don't happen to believe in perseverance of the saints. He got that wrong too.
The early church did NOT believe in eternal salvation UNLESS the person would abide in Christ till his death...
of his own free choice of course.
God did not make billions of puppets, He made billions of humans.
And He loves His creation and gives to each person the oppportunity to be saved and spend eternity with Himj.
We are depraved, I agree.
How does that mean we cannot turn to God.
The bible is chock full of verses that state God wants us to search for Him so He may be found.
Ok. So, if Calvin got it right, He was taught by God. However, God doesn't have a "nature" in that nature describes the qualities of creation. I use the word "character" instead as that applies to "likeness." I tend to be careful about that as scripture warns us about worshipping the creation rather than the creator and there are entire cults who've fallen to that error.
I wouldn't find much to argue about here, but I think Piper is wrong in underestimating God's Sovereignty over creation.
Not a hair drops from your head that God isn't aware of.
I read a book a few decades ago written by a "particle " physicist and titled the "Tao of Physics". This author, though a pagan by biblical definition, arrived at the conclusion that even on the subatomic level, there is a clearly defined order of things in the universe that testifies to a quality of mind and control. Like Albert Einstein, he concluded that there must be something which we call God that holds the universe together by will, but also like Einstein, he was in no way prepared to accept the Lord, the God of scripture as that creative mind.
If a heathen can arrive at that conclusion from observation of the world, why would a Christian believe in a smaller god?
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