John Calvin and Calvinism.

[Rudometkin]

God knows what I'm going to have for lunch but he does not choose my lunch. I think you keep missing just because God knew of mans future path does not mean that he made man take that path.

God determined both your lunch and your ignorance of His determination.

Do you think God has some super power to look into the future? He knows everything because He determines everything. If He looked into the future, then He was ignorant beforehand.

 

[GodsGrace]

depraved.....morally corrupt; wicked. My main issue is with the word.

In the OT people missed the mark....definition of the word sin. Were the Apostles depraved before they met Christ? Probably not.
Good people....good Jews....good Jews that chose Christ....Good Pagans that chose Christ....gentiles.
The references in the New Testament are speaking to the fact that no one really knew what morality and character was until Christ and the Apostles taught them.

In the O.T. it does say that men were wicked, and had evil hearts..and other such descriptions.
I think of Noah's Ark and Sodom and Gemorrah.

We're born with a sinful nature and we need to be born again or we will not see the Kingdom of God -
not here on earth and not after death.

I do believe that the N.T. illuminates what God wanted to teach in the O.T.
Do we ever stop to consider that the O.T. is about 4,000 years old? I don't think so.
Jesus is certainly God's last revelation to us (general, not personal).
What Jesus taught cannot be changed.

He taught that we need to be born of the spirit.
He taught that anyone can be forgiven and become a member of the Kingdom - right now.

Where the reformed go wrong is that they know man to have the sin nature
but they believe this could keep man from finding God.
Nowhere in the bible does it state that God cannot be found...
not in the O.T. and not in the N.T. - in fact, it's the opposite.

We are told to search, look for and find God because He is to be found.

Jesus knocks at the door because He'd like for the person behind it to open it.
We are ABLE to overcome our sin nature and seek God and find Him.

Since they believe that man cannot search for or find God...
it becomes necessary for them to believe that we have to be regenerated first,
and then become born again. All their doctrine is based on false premises.

 

[GodsGrace]

God predestinated that you would be responsible for sinning.

If you can't grasp this, then you can't grasp the reformed position.

Actually Rudometkin,
I find the reformed position VERY difficult to grasp.
First because it's heretical in that it's a bit gnostic. (from whence it began back in the days of Augustine who was a manichaean).
This has to do with babies being born in sin - you might know about this. Another of Augustine's mistakes.

Second because it is not a logical theology - the study of God.
For instance, what you just stated.

As per reformed theology,
Man sins because God predestinates him to sin...
However, man is still responsible and culpable for that sin.

??

We have John Macarthur who states that this is a great mystery and it just has to be accepted.

Then we have John Piper who DESTROYS Romans 1:19-21 TRYING to explain how no man is innocent, having seen that God exists.

Ummm...but doesn't this go against free will choice?
Man knows God exists from what He has created....
But some particular person doesn't believe in God because God did not so predestine his belief...
but the person is culpable anyway?

See R, you can't get away from the ILLOGICAL reasoning of the reformed faith.

In orthodox Christianity the bible is flowing in logic and common sense, which is God's character.
In the reformed faith, there is doctrine after doctrine that is not logical because that faith has to force each verse/doctrine to match what the reformed teach.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

In the O.T. it does say that men were wicked, and had evil hearts..and other such descriptions.
I think of Noah's Ark and Sodom and Gemorrah.

We're born with a sinful nature and we need to be born again or we will not see the Kingdom of God -
not here on earth and not after death.

I do believe that the N.T. illuminates what God wanted to teach in the O.T.
Do we ever stop to consider that the O.T. is about 4,000 years old? I don't think so.
Jesus is certainly God's last revelation to us (general, not personal).
What Jesus taught cannot be changed.

He taught that we need to be born of the spirit.
He taught that anyone can be forgiven and become a member of the Kingdom - right now.

Where the reformed go wrong is that they know man to have the sin nature
but they believe this could keep man from finding God.
Nowhere in the bible does it state that God cannot be found...
not in the O.T. and not in the N.T. - in fact, it's the opposite.

We are told to search, look for and find God because He is to be found.

Jesus knocks at the door because He'd like for the person behind it to open it.
We are ABLE to overcome our sin nature and seek God and find Him.

Since they believe that man cannot search for or find God...
it becomes necessary for them to believe that we have to be regenerated first,
and then become born again. All their doctrine is based on false premises.

no one seeks God on their own. Romans 3:10-12

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

Actually Rudometkin,
I find the reformed position VERY difficult to grasp.
First because it's heretical in that it's a bit gnostic. (from whence it began back in the days of Augustine who was a manichaean).
This has to do with babies being born in sin - you might know about this. Another of Augustine's mistakes.

Second because it is not a logical theology - the study of God.
For instance, what you just stated.

As per reformed theology,
Man sins because God predestinates him to sin...
However, man is still responsible and culpable for that sin.

??

We have John Macarthur who states that this is a great mystery and it just has to be accepted.

Then we have John Piper who DESTROYS Romans 1:19-21 TRYING to explain how no man is innocent, having seen that God exists.

Ummm...but doesn't this go against free will choice?
Man knows God exists from what He has created....
But some particular person doesn't believe in God because God did not so predestine his belief...
but the person is culpable anyway?

See R, you can't get away from the ILLOGICAL reasoning of the reformed faith.

In orthodox Christianity the bible is flowing in logic and common sense, which is God's character.
In the reformed faith, there is doctrine after doctrine that is not logical because that faith has to force each verse/doctrine to match what the reformed teach.

your fallacy here is that you think man can understand God’s logic. We cant. He is beyond our understanding.

 

[GodsGrace]

I don't remember your posts to know what you believe, so I can't answer you directly. But I have responded to others, and if you read my responses, you have an idea.

First off, he didn't come up with the tulip theory. He commented on like-topics, as well as many more. He did believe in predestination (with good reason as it is in the Bible), but he never states that such means we are free to sin all we want, nor does it mean anyone should stop striving toward salvation. In fact, just the opposite since that knowledge (of who is predestinated) is God's alone.

What I believe is what Calvin wrote and what the WCF teaches is not orthodox Christianity.
What the reformed faith teaches was never taught in the early church.
It was never even considered until the 1500's at the reformation.
It just does not match the Character of God.

If God is uncaring and does not love His creation, man, and can banish most of humanity to hell, then Calvinism must be right.

If God is a God of justice (which means giving to each as that person deserves) and merciful and loves His creation, us, then He cannot be the God of the reformed faith since that God is not loving, nor just, nor merciful, or His intention would be to sacrifice Jesus so that whosoever wishes to believe and follow Him can be saved.

Speaking of predestination, some have suggested that God doesn't even foreknow who will be saved which against many scripture.

That would be open theism.
It makes no sense at all or God would not be omniscient.
This is why it's important to stay with the written word and not make up our own doctrine -- which is what some men do.
I do believe Calvin was one of them.

One thing that I had forgotten about is that Calvin was not against the idea of free will. He had a different take on it than those who believe they can decide if they are saved or not, but he nonetheless acknowledge it, which shows those with an overactive imagination who believe Calvin says we are all robots are not correct on what he wrote.

If God predestines EVERYTHING...how could man have free will?
If you read book 1 of the Institutes, chapter 16, paragraphs 3 and on, there is written much about God's predestination and free will, or the lack thereof.

Calvin's ideas are so confusing and conflicting that it hurts to read about them.
Maybe this is why some Calvinists feel so superior in intellect...they can accept conflicting ideas (which clearly show a problem exists).
If you care to read some of what he thought about free will, you could look here:
https://biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/vox/vol12/calvin_lane.pdf

And we all care FH...it's God's character we're discussing.

 

[Rudometkin]

Actually Rudometkin,
I find the reformed position VERY difficult to grasp.
First because it's heretical in that it's a bit gnostic. (from whence it began back in the days of Augustine who was a manichaean).
This has to do with babies being born in sin - you might know about this. Another of Augustine's mistakes.

Second because it is not a logical theology - the study of God.
For instance, what you just stated.

As per reformed theology,
Man sins because God predestinates him to sin...
However, man is still responsible and culpable for that sin.

??

We have John Macarthur who states that this is a great mystery and it just has to be accepted.

Then we have John Piper who DESTROYS Romans 1:19-21 TRYING to explain how no man is innocent, having seen that God exists.

Ummm...but doesn't this go against free will choice?
Man knows God exists from what He has created....
But some particular person doesn't believe in God because God did not so predestine his belief...
but the person is culpable anyway?

See R, you can't get away from the ILLOGICAL reasoning of the reformed faith.

In orthodox Christianity the bible is flowing in logic and common sense, which is God's character.
In the reformed faith, there is doctrine after doctrine that is not logical because that faith has to force each verse/doctrine to match what the reformed teach.

Where is the logical problem?

 

[Rudometkin]

If God predestines EVERYTHING...how could man have free will?

Man doesn't have a will that is free from God. Man's will is what God forms it to be.

Proverbs 21:1
The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

What I believe is what Calvin wrote and what the WCF teaches is not orthodox Christianity.
What the reformed faith teaches was never taught in the early church.
It was never even considered until the 1500's at the reformation.
It just does not match the Character of God.

If God is uncaring and does not love His creation, man, and can banish most of humanity to hell, then Calvinism must be right.

If God is a God of justice (which means giving to each as that person deserves) and merciful and loves His creation, us, then He cannot be the God of the reformed faith since that God is not loving, nor just, nor merciful, or His intention would be to sacrifice Jesus so that whosoever wishes to believe and follow Him can be saved.



That would be open theism.
It makes no sense at all or God would not be omniscient.
This is why it's important to stay with the written word and not make up our own doctrine -- which is what some men do.
I do believe Calvin was one of them.



If God predestines EVERYTHING...how could man have free will.

wow! Ok let me see where to begin…
1. Calvin and the WCF merely affirmed what the Bible says.
2. What the early church taught is exactly what calvin taught.
3. Your idea of God is not the Biblical truth. God is just, but vengeance is His.
4. this is the biggie. Im gonna put this as simple as i know how. The majority of mankind will end up in hell. The majority of mankind will be damned. Calvin was right, only His elect, which are few will be saved. Your problem is you dont see hell as just or fair. You are a sinner!!!! We all are!!!! We ALL deserve to burn in hell forever!!! We have sinned against a Holy God, our Creator. It is His mercy, and His glory to save the few.
5. Jesus’ death was only for the elect, not everyone.
6. Calvin never made anything up, he merely took the 27 books of the NT and condensed it down to 5 points.

 

[GodsGrace]

You know too much, friend. As in, you think you "know" more than you actually know. I have been locked on your point from the beginning. You have been the one deflecting from your own point. You said:



Your point was to attack a specific behavior of God in "Calvinism".

Why would God command men to do one thing if He has already predetermined them to do the opposite?

But this behavior is already undoubtedly established in the crucifixion, even outside of "Calvinism".

God commands men to not murder, yet He has predetermined the crucifixion, which is murder.

So my whole point still remains. Remember what you said:



You must think it's absurd for God to have ordained the crucifixion while commanding men to not murder.

Why don't you be consistent and ask why God commanded men to not sin, if He has already decided they would sin in the crucifixion?



You still "know" too much. You don't even know my theology.

Sin is transgression of law. God is under no law. Any action God does is Righteous by definition and is not sin. God is not guilty of anything, God is the Righteous cause of everything. But for you, your low opinion of God is made evident for all to see.



God predetermined He would use wicked men. So you must believe God predetermined there would be wicked men and He would use them for Righteousness.

Now after sticking with a logical conclusion, it looks like you're starting to line up with my theology.

R,
Calvinism makes God a sinner.
And I'd say that calvinists have a low opinion of God.
To them God is so weak that He cannot even make man have free will. Libertarian free will, real free will.
Do you think God is afraid of giving us free will? A weak God that would be.

God cannot betray Himself...He is all love. 1 John 4:8 God IS love. God is mercy.. God is justice.
Calvinism strips God of all these titles.

God cannot say DO NOT KILL
and then allow murders - which He predestinated!
and all manner of evil.

As to the crucifixion...
Nice place to run to when you're out of reasoning power.
Problem is: There is NO reasoning power in calvinism because it does not make logical sense.
And God is not a God of confusion.

The crucifixion was in God's plan from the beginning because He knew Adam would fail...but still have him free will to choose to disobey.
Knowing and causing are different.

Yes, I'd say that God planning for the atonement is different from a back alley murder - that you believe God caused
and for His glory, no less !

 

[Grailhunter]

Calvin and the WCF merely affirmed what the Bible says.

This is exactly what the Jehovah's Witness and People's Temple and Voodoo Priests say. And probably what the Branch Davidians said.

 

[FHII]

What I believe is what Calvin wrote and what the WCF teaches is not orthodox Christianity.
What the reformed faith teaches was never taught in the early church.
It was never even considered until the 1500's at the reformation.
It just does not match the Character of God.

If God is uncaring and does not love His creation, man, and can banish most of humanity to hell, then Calvinism must be right.

If God is a God of justice (which means giving to each as that person deserves) and merciful and loves His creation, us, then He cannot be the God of the reformed faith since that God is not loving, nor just, nor merciful, or His intention would be to sacrifice Jesus so that whosoever wishes to believe and follow Him can be saved.



That would be open theism.
It makes no sense at all or God would not be omniscient.
This is why it's important to stay with the written word and not make up our own doctrine -- which is what some men do.
I do believe Calvin was one of them.



If God predestines EVERYTHING...how could man have free will?
If you read book 1 of the Institutes, chapter 16, paragraphs 3 and on, there is written much about God's predestination and free will, or the lack thereof.

Calvin's ideas are so confusing and conflicting that it hurts to read about them.
Maybe this is why some Calvinists feel so superior in intellect...they can accept conflicting ideas (which clearly show a problem exists).
If you care to read some of what he thought about free will, you could look here:
https://biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/vox/vol12/calvin_lane.pdf

And we all care FH...it's God's character we're discussing.

If what Calvin wrote is not "orthodox Christianity", then I am unconcerned. The reason is that orthodox Christianity has plenty of problems with what the Bible says. As I think you do as well.

In respect to the reformation, while I admire Luther, Hus, Calvin and others, I don't always agree with them either. They took a stand, but not everything they believed was right. They clung to as much bad Catholic teaching as they rejected.

Next, you talk about the "character of God". Fine... But according to whom? See, what you are doing is pitting what Calvin said (and he actually has backing by the Bible) vs. Your version of a sweetheart God.

Yes, God is loving and forgiving... He is long suffering. He loved us before we loved him... He's all that stuff!

He is also a jealous God, he is a man of War, he created evil, he totally wiped out the world with a flood, he divorced one of his wives, he said Vengeance was his name, he mockingly laughs at some peoples calamities, he hates some people, killed some people for not doing what he wanted, has enemies and he has killed and wiped out whole nations and called it merciful!

Orthodox Christianity doesn't teach that... Calvin knew it and knew it was in the Bible. It the orthodox who don't acknowledge this. However, everything I have said is true to the Bible.

Calvin realized this. The majority of Calvin's work was commentaries of the Bible where he would analyze every verse. Its not always the best practice, but you cannot say he didn't consider every verse.

 

[GodsGrace]

Well that's the very reason that it does ~ absolutely ~ matter what passage is being referred to by John in chapter 3 of his gospel (and by Paul in Romans 10). God is His own arbiter.


Agreed. Absolutely. All those Biblical passages are absolutely consistent... and not inconsistent as you would (inadvertently) have them be. That's the point.


Like I said, Joel is referring to a specific group of people here, those whom the LORD calls. They are the ones who will call on the name of the LORD, after He calls them.


Sure. This is the general call of the Gospel, not God's effectual call that He issues through His Holy Spirit.

There's only one call R.
The call that goes out to everyone that wishes to believe.
Jesus called everyone, but not all would go to Him.
Matthew 23:37
"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.

You were unwilling means that Jesus WANTED them to come to Him...
but they chose not to of their own free will.
If this is not the case, then Jesus cried for nothing and God Father forget to tell Jesus the plan of predestination.

Revelation 3:20
20‘Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me

How do YOU explain that away?
So many verses you need to explain away because they do not reconcile with your theology of God choosing who will be saved.
You really do make Jesus out to be pretty dumb in the face of what He taught.

Matthew 7:24-27
24“Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.
25“And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock.
26“Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
27“The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell—and great was its fall.”

28When Jesus had finished these words, the crowds were amazed at His teaching; 29for He was teaching them as one having authority, and not as their scribes.


Jesus even gave us a choice of two foundations upon which to build.
He said that if we hear His words and act on them we can be wise or foolish.
He did not say that we would have to abide by what God chose for us...but gave us the choice.
AND, He even spoke with authority...He wasn't dumb after all.

Wholeheartely agreed. And we can't manipulate Scripture to agree with what we think, but rather the other way around. But in our exchange, that's all you, my friend. All you.


Agreed again, but that's the effect of what you are saying ~ to make God appear to contradict Himself.


But you cannot deny that all of the above are prescriptive.


Yes, regarding the general call of God to the gospel and to repent and believe. But His effectual call, issued by His Spirit the hearts of men, only comes to His elect, each at his/her appointed time. This is what Jeremiah is saying ~ well, actually God ~ when he quotes God thusly:

"Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the LORD. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people." (Jeremiah 31:313-33).​

Yes, Nicodemus, a man can be born again. :)


Agreed. The Gospel, since the advent of Christ Jesus, is available in full to all.

But even still, God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy, compassion on whom He will have compassion. So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. So then He has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills. Romans 9 is true, also.

Would you deny God His free will? Because in effect, that's exactly what you and other like-minded folks are doing.

Grace and peace to you.

And for goodness sake...stop saying that I'm saying that the bible conflicts.
I said THE BIBLE DOES NOT HAVE CONFLICT.
It is reasonable and logical and very easily understood even by children.
It is your faith system that causes conflictual problems with scripture.

Example:
We are so depraved that we cannot come to God on our own.
I gave you many verses that state we CAN come to God on our own..including the ones above.

If you think the bible was written only for the elect,,,
then please state what the good news is.

 

[Grailhunter]

What the early church taught is exactly what calvin taught.

Not true.
Christ did not say, And the elect are predestined to believe. So we will sit here in Bethany and watch it happen.

No there was an urgency to go and spread the Gospel and people had a choice.

Again Calvinism is a horror of a religion. God has the power to do evil, but that does mean He chooses to do evil.

Even the Voodoo priests depict God as good. No one but evil depicts God as an evil Puppet master

 

[Rudometkin]

Calvinism makes God a sinner.

Where does "Calvinism" say God is under a law?

 

[Grailhunter]

this is the biggie. Im gonna put this as simple as i know how. The majority of mankind will end up in hell. The majority of mankind will be damned. Calvin was right, only His elect, which are few will be saved. Your problem is you dont see hell as just or fair. You are a sinner!!!! We all are!!!! We ALL deserve to burn in hell forever!!! We have sinned against a Holy God, our Creator. It is His mercy, and His glory to save the few.

What you are saying is, if God has the choice of everything.....He came up with one stupid plan of evil and misery.

 

[GodsGrace]

no one seeks God on their own. Romans 3:10-12

Why obey only Romans 3:10-12 which states that man is born a sinner.
This is true.

But where in Romans 3:10-12 does it say that no one can seek God?
This was referring to Psalms and for protection against the wicked.
The O.T. and the N.T. is full of verses stating that we can seek God on our own and that God is happy about this:

1 Chronicles 16:10-11
Glory in his holy name; let the hearts of those who seek the Lord rejoice! Seek the Lord and his strength; seek his presence continually! (1 Chr 16:10-11).

2 Chronicles 7:14
If my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land (2 Chr 7:14).

2 Chronicles 15:2b
The Lord is with you while you are with him. If you seek him, he will be found by you, but if you forsake him, he will forsake you (2 Chr 15:2b)

Psalm 9:10
And those who know your name put their trust in you, for you, O Lord, have not forsaken those who seek you (Ps 9:10).

Psalm 27:8
You have said, “Seek my face.” My heart says to you, “Your face, Lord, do I seek” (Ps 27:8).

Psalm 34:4
I sought the Lord, and he answered me and delivered me from all my fears (Ps 34:4).

Psalm 34:10
The young lions suffer want and hunger; but those who seek the Lord lack no good thing (Ps 34:10).

Psalm 63:1
O God, you are my God; earnestly I seek you; my soul thirsts for you; my flesh faints for you, as in a dry and weary land where there is no water (Ps 63:1).

Psalm 105:4
Seek the Lord and his strength; seek his presence continually! (Ps 105:4).

Psalm 119:2
Blessed are those who keep his testimonies, who seek him with their whole heart (Ps 119:2).

Psalm 119:45
And I shall walk in a wide place, for I have sought your precepts (Ps 119:45).

Proverbs 8:17
I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently find me (Pr 8:17).

Proverbs 28:5
Evil men do not understand justice, but those who seek the Lord understand it completely (Pr 28:5).

Isaiah 55:6
Seek the Lord while he may be found; call upon him while he is near (Is 55:6).

Lamentations 3:25
The Lord is good to those who wait for him, to the soul who seeks him (Lam 3:25).

Amos 5:4
For thus says the Lord to the house of Israel: Seek me and live (Amos 5:4).

Zechariah 8:21
The inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, ‘Let us go at once to entreat the favor of the Lord and to seek the Lord of hosts; I myself am going’ (Zec 8:21).

Matthew 6:33
But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you (Mt 6:33).

Matthew 7:7
Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you (Mt 7:7).

Luke 11:10
For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened (Lk 11:10).

Colossians 3:1
If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God (Col 3:1).

Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him (Heb 11:6).


We are exhorted to seek God.
God would not lie in His inspired Word.
Romans 3 is speaking of wicked men that do NOT seek God.

 

[GodsGrace]

your fallacy here is that you think man can understand God’s logic. We cant. He is beyond our understanding.

God told us all we needed to know to be saved.
This is why the bible exists.
This is why He told each generation until Jesus what they could understand.
Jesus told us all we need and He is the final revelation.
Where does Jesus state that God will pick the few persons that will be saved?
What I read is Jesus telling us HOW to be saved...
which would be wasted words if it were not so.

 

[GodsGrace]

Where is the logical problem?

Where is the logical problem?
There is more than one...

I stated a couple in the post to which you're replying:
Here it is again....Is God illogical? Does He not WANT us to understand the bible HE inspired?

from post no. 283:
As per reformed theology,
Man sins because God predestinates him to sin...
However, man is still responsible and culpable for that sin.

??

We have John Macarthur who states that this is a great mystery and it just has to be accepted.

Then we have John Piper who DESTROYS Romans 1:19-21 TRYING to explain how no man is innocent, having seen that God exists.

Ummm...but doesn't this go against free will choice?


1. God predestines us to sin.
Then holds us culpable of the sin.

Is God logical?
Does He wish to confuse us?
Why was the bible written?
Wasn't it so God could reveal Himself to us?
And how we are to be with God?


Orthodox christianity also states we are culpable of our sins.
But it also states we were free to commit them.
This is logical.

 

[GodsGrace]

Man doesn't have a will that is free from God. Man's will is what God forms it to be.

Proverbs 21:1
The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

Have you noticed that most of your verses are from the O.T.?
God is powerful and He revealed Himself to man.
Everything that happened in the O.T. was attributed to God.

Why don't you post verses from what Jesus said?
He was God incarnate and the ultimate revelation from God.
He did preach and teach for over 3 years and His teachings have been left with us.

If Jesus is knocking on the door and waiting for someone to open it (Rev. 3:20)...
WHY is He waiting for someone to open it?
Doesn't Jesus know about the predestination thing?