John Calvin and Calvinism.

[Renniks]

Well I would say god doesn't always gets what He wants (as in desire) but He always gets what He wills.

Lol, Calvinists contradicting themselves. Gotta love it.

 

[Renniks]

But as to your last sentence here- you have it backwards! The elect accept Jesus by faith. The unelect do not! I was saved by decree of God before He created the universe- that is my position! I got saved in time , that is my experience. Teh fact that I would be saved intime is moot, God made sure it would happen. Not because of any "freewill" on my part, but because of His decree!

That's just Calvinism. Not scripture.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Three things about the book of Jonah, BibleHighlighter:

* The book of Jonah is really about Jonah, not Nineveh. He didn't want to go to Nineveh and preach the Gospel as God told him, because he hated them, and he didn't want the people of Nineveh to receive God's blessings. Jonah even tried to resist, but, well, you know the story. He ultimately did what God told him to do, because... Yes, you know the story.

* Yes, God did relent from destroying Nineveh... in Jonah. I would submit to you that this was His plan all along; He gave them grace, at least for a time. But ~ you knew there was a 'but' coming, right? :) ~ you might want to read the second book after Jonah ~ Nahum ~ and see what ultimately happened to Nineveh and its occupants. The judgment of God is a terrible thing.

All Scripture is profitable for doctrine, and instruction in righteousness (2 Timothy 3:16). So there are lessons or truths to be learned in Jonah 3:10. One truth from Jonah 3:10 that you and every other Calvinist ignores is that God does not force salvation upon people. This is what is clearly taught in Jonah 3:10.

Jonah 3:10 KJB

“And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.”​

Jonah 3:10 NKJV

“Then God saw their works,
that they turned from their evil way;
and God relented from the disaster
that He had said He would bring upon them,
and He did not do it.”​

It says God relented (changed his mind) from the disaster that He said He would bring upon them and He did not do it.

What disaster did God change His mind on or relent in not doing?
What disaster did God change His mind on or relent in not doing?

This is in context to Jonah 3:4.

We read in Jonah 3:4:

“And Jonah began to enter into the city
a day's journey, and he cried, and said,
Yet forty days, and
Nineveh shall be overthrown.”
(Jonah 3:4).​

Nineveh being said to being overthrown in 40 days is the disaster that God changed His mind on.

Again, God seen the Ninevites forsake their evil ways and then He relented and changed his mind and did it not. If these 40 days were in some far off future destruction or warning, then why is God changing His mind or relenting and not bringing destruction upon them when He originally said He would? If God relented or changed His mind on this destruction in the far off future, then why did it happen? Did God change His mind again? If so… where does it talk about how God changed His mind yet again in Scripture?

So this is not judgment upon the Ninevites hundreds of years later. If such was the case, then God was using trickery or untruth to get them to seek forgiveness with God and to forsake their evil ways. In short, they would have repented based on a falsehood or lie. It also renders Jonah 3:10 as being untrue in what it says, as well.

Also, how does the 40 days until they are other thrown perfectly align with the 148 year future destruction of the city of Nineveh? The story of Jonah happened appx. 760 B.C., and the capital of Assyria (of Nineveh), was destroyed in appx. 612 B.C. by the Medes. That’s 148 years. If it was 40 year future destruction of Nineveh, then one could say that a year represented a day. If it was 400 years, one could say that a day represented a decade or 10 years. But these are not the numbers we are given.

* We can take at least this lesson from this, that the Gospel is for everyone, and is to be preached to all nations, whether we want to or not. God's purposes are what matter, not ours. As Jesus said, "Not my will, but yours be done."

If one is a Calvinist, the gospel is not for everyone because the god of Calvinism elects some to salvation, and by either default does not elect others to be saved, and or he elects them to reprobation or damnation.

Grace and peace to you.

May God’s love and good ways shine upon you this fine day.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It is the generic we! We sin because we by nature are sinners. That was handed down from teh only humans who had free will from the beginning. We get free will restored at salvation!

You are wrong in saying Calvinism says man has no ability to turn to God! It is the bible that teaches that!

And vomiting human reason on this page does not negate the simple verses of Scripture.

Romans 8:5-8
King James Version

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

The natural man cannot please God! Period! Turning ot God pleases HIm and the natural man cannot do that in his own flesh nature!

I don't believe Calvinism is in line with God's goodness or character and or fair justice. It would be like a coast guard saving everyone on a lifeboat except for you and your family and when you ask him why he is not saving you and your family, he says.... “No reason, I just do not want to save you.” “You should be thankful that I am saving these other people.”

Or it would be like a dog owner who kicks his dog across the room like a football because it has an uncontrollable pooping problem (because it is sick) whereby the dog squeezes out hot piles of steamy goodness on his master's white carpets. So instead of the master taking his dog to the vet and trying to help him, he just decides to kick the poor animal and to punish it (When the animal has no control over it's pooping function).

That's kind of how I see Calvinism. For it is called UNconditional Election. Meaning, God is not electing anyone based upon any conditions found within the individual. So God is simply creating many for the express purpose to be tortured for all eternity. That is their destiny that they cannot escape and God has chosen this only path for them. God wants many lives to suffer for all eternity and we should just be thankful that He saves a few when He has the power to save them all (But He simply doesn't). This does not sound like the loving God of the Bible.

“But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.” (Romans 11:20).

Side Note:

One can read wrong assumptions about how one has a carnal mind in Romans 8:5-8. The context tells us that the choice is ours to live.

Romans 8:13 KJB says,
“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.”

Romans 8:13 NKJV says,
“For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.”

Paul is talking to the believers at Rome and he tells them if you live one way according to the flesh (or sin) you will die (die spiritually), but if you put to death the deeds of the body (sin) by the Spirit (by the help of the Spirit) you will live (live eternally). Two choices are given to the reader (who are believers). Live one way and you will die in the Lake of Fire (the second death) or you can put to death sin your body by the Spirit and live (live eternally with Jesus). So there is no forced salvation going on here. The carnally minded individual is simply resisting God and justifying sin and going against God’s Word. They are doing so of their own free will. For 2 Thessalonians 2:10 teaches that those who perish are perishing because THEY RECEIVED NOT THE LOVE OF THE TRUTH THAT THEY MIGHT BE SAVED, and not because they were not capable of receiving the love of the truth.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Free Will in the Bible:

#1. Joshua 24:15 KJV -
"Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve"

#2. Matthew 11:28 KJV -
"Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

#3. John 7:17 KJV -
"If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God."

#4. John 7:37 KJV -
"If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink."

#5. Acts 2:38 KJV -
"Repent, and let everyone of you be baptized"

#6. Acts 3:19 KJV -
"Repent therefore and be converted"

#7. Acts 16:31 KJV -
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved"

#8. Acts 17:30 KJV -
"but now commands all men everywhere to repent"

#9. Revelation 22:17 KJV -
"Whoever wills, let him take the water of life freely."

#10. Genesis 4:7 KJV -
"If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him."

#11. Revelation 22:17 KJ2
"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that hears say, Come. And let him that is thirsty come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."

#12. Luke 13:34 NLT -
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jeremiah 29:13 does not sound like Calvinism.

It says,
“And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.” (Jeremiah 29:13).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

As for John Calvin:

Well, if true according to history, John Calvin appeared to be a very scary man to be around if you disagreed with him theologically.

John Calvin’s interpretation of the Bible justified the murder of his theological opponents. He himself did not cut off any heads or light any fires that burned human heretics alive, but John Calvin’s preaching from the Old and New Testaments claimed those capital punishments aligned with God’s interests.

How so? Calvin did not believe all Old Covenant laws had been set aside by the New Covenant Jesus inaugurated. He didn't buy into the plain sense of Hebrews: “God has made the first covenant obsolete” (Hebrews 8:13). He maneuvered around Paul’s conclusion: “the Law became a tutor to lead us to Christ and now that faith has come we are no longer under a tutor” (Galatians 3:24-25; cf. Rom 10:4). Calvin dismissed this data from the New Testament and decided the moral laws in the Old Covenant laws of the Torah still applied. And killing people who perverted his pure doctrine was a moral necessity.

Calvin specifically justified capital punishment of heretics with Leviticus 24:16. “The one who blasphemes the name of the Lord should be put to death; all the congregation must stone him. Any foreigner or native who blasphemes the Name should be put to death.”

Jesus’ teaching to “love your enemies” didn’t stop Calvin from approving and promoting the death of his theological enemies. And Paul’s instructions for dealing with people who theologically disagree with you were equally ignored: “A servant of the Lord must not quarrel but must be kind to everyone, be able to teach, and be patient with difficult people. Gently instruct those who oppose the truth. Perhaps God will change those people’s hearts, and they will learn the truth” (2 Timothy 2:24-25). Calvin did not patiently discuss his differences with people who promoted competing ideas. Calvin requested beheadings, made death threats, and praised God for orchestrating the torture of heretics.

Calvin spelled out his theologically reinforced vengeance in a personal letter:

“I am persuaded that it is not without the special will of God that, apart from any verdict of the judges, the criminals have endured protracted torment at the hands of the executioner.”
​

- Calvin's letter to Farel on 24 July (for more words directly from Calvin’s pen, read Selected Works of John Calvin)
​

Calvin believed God made sure criminals didn’t die quickly when tortured. This vengeful attitude and his support for outdated Old Covenant laws that legislated capital punishment for competing theologians that challenged his preferred doctrines look more like ISIS than Jesus.

John Calvin’s Fight Against Heretics

Personal correspondence and city council records betray John Calvin’s extraordinary influence in Geneva. Although he was asked to leave in 1538 when he enforced his strict moral standards and pushed for the church’s independent power to excommunicate people, Genevan officials invited him to return in 1541 to resolve church divisions. Upon his return, the city council approved his Ecclesiastical Ordinances that included the establishment of the Consistory. The Consistory, a church court that oversaw the discipline of the citizens of Geneva, met every Thursday to review cases (This book is a chronicle of the Consistory’s records from 1542-1544.) John Calvin led the court. Although the Consistory did not have the power to imprison, exile, or kill those who were guilty, Calvin could still convince the city magistrates to wield such power when his theological opponents contradicted him.

When Jacques Gruet, a theologian with differing views, placed a letter in Calvin’s pulpit calling him a hypocrite, he was arrested, tortured for a month and beheaded on July 26, 1547. Gruet's own theological book was later found and burned along with his house while his wife was thrown out into the street to watch.

Michael Servetus, a Spaniard, physician, scientist and Bible scholar, suffered a worse fate. He was Calvin's longtime acquaintance who resisted the authority of the Roman Catholic Church. However, he angered Calvin by returning a copy of Calvin's Institutes with critical comments in the margins. So what did Calvin do? You can read his resolution from a personal letter he wrote to a friend:

“Servetus offers to come hither, if it be agreeable to me. But I am unwilling to pledge my word for his safety, for if he shall come, I shall never permit him to depart alive, provided my authority be of any avail.”
​

- Letter to Farel, 13 February 1546
​

The next time Servetus attended Calvin's Sunday preaching service on a visit, Calvin had him arrested and charged with heresy. The 38 official charges included rejection of the Trinity and infant baptism. The city magistrates condemned him to death. Calvin pleaded for Servetus to be beheaded instead of the more brutal method of burning at the stake, but to no avail. Some people see Calvin’s compassion in pursuing a more humane method of death, but ultimately he supported killing Servetus and all such heretics.

Institutes of the Christian Religion to be a "holy doctrine which no man might speak against." Disagreeing with Calvin’s view of God was a violation warranting the death penalty according to the way John Calvin interpreted Leviticus 24:16. The Geneva city council records describe one verdict where a man who publicly protested against John Calvin’s doctrine of predestination was flogged at all the city’s main intersections and then expelled (“The Minutes Book of the Geneva City Council, 1541-59,” translated by Stefan Zweig, Erasmus: The Right to Heresy).​

Source:
John Calvin justified killing his theological opponents with the Bible
(Note: The above writing is taken from an article. I agree with the author on this particular article; But it does not mean I agree with everything the author believes or says because I do not know all of what he believes).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

John Calvin sounds about as cold as the god of Calvinism.
In other words, don’t follow men but follow Jesus and His Word alone.
You don’t need a man to understand the Bible.
You simply need the Anointing or the understanding from the Holy Spirit by asking God.

 

[Grailhunter]

This might be an awkward question, but does it matter about free will so long as you get to Heaven??

Heaven is real and the Way to get there has been defined by Christ and the Apostles, a theology does not change that.
What stands between a Christian and heaven is Judgment Day. All will appear before the Judgment Seat of Christ and account for what they have done....both good and bad.

Both good and bad. It is not your theology that sits on the scale. Your past life before Baptism is forgotten. The process of believing in Christ, and being a Christian is done. So on to judge what you have done and how that goes is a matter of opinion.

Christianity is a journey with Christ....what does a person's theology do to them. Once saved, always saved....there is nothing in this belief system to encourages morals....you come in as a murder, a child molester, or a rapist....as long as you believe in Christ you are going to heaven....Ludacris.

Then as far as Calvinism, does being a Calvinist motivate you to live a moral life? That is what matters.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Puritans (Calvinists) are known for executing witches in history (i.e. the Salem witch trials). While witchcraft and witches are really bad, and no believer should condone witchcraft, the New Testament does not teach we are to kill our enemies, but we are love our enemies. We should condemn the sin and not the person. If we are to follow John Calvin, and or the Puritan brand of Calvinism: One would not be living a moral life according to the terms of the New Covenant because one would kill their enemies physically. Granted, in the Old Covenant, God told believers to destroy their enemies, but we are not under the Old Covenant.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Theology does form your standard of morality. If you believe in the god of Calvinism who forces some to be saved and others to not be saved, it will affect your behavior in thinking the same way or to be more cold and calloused towards others. Some Calvinists in the past claim they had to live a holy life (puritans) to prove they were one of God’s elect or chosen. But as we can see in the Salem witch trails, their version of holiness was not the one described in the New Testament.

 

[Titus]

Pinseeker is claiming mankind can choose to be saved or choose to be lost.
When Pinseeker teaches this, he is not following the doctrine of Calvinism,

Well:
1st, Calvinism can be understood by anyone, but some people choose not to. For various reasons. Of their... free will. :)
2nd, One can choose... wisely, regarding Jesus, but one will not choose... wisely, regarding Jesus... because, due to who he/she is at the core of your being (in his/her heart)... he she will choose freely, but
unwisely

This is Pinseeker misleading folks away from the only conclusions that will occur if calvinism be true.

Facts about Calvinism,
1 Unconditional Election: (predestination)
God had a master list of those who will be saved and those who will go to hell before creation in Genesis 1:1
This list is unchangeable!

2. Limited atonement:
Christ did not die for ALL men but only those on the "saved list".

So, we see Pinseeker is not being transparent about his doctrine.
No way is it possible for all to choose to obey the gospel(freewill).
Calvinism teaches Jesus did not die to save everyone!
Therefore, it matters not if you want to be saved, Christ did not die for you!

Remember Pinseeker said men and women will choose freely?
Pinseeker is claiming calvinism teaches freewill.

But look at the facts, God did not die to save everyone according to calvinism.
So, Pinseeker's claim that calvinism allows freewill is false!
If calvinism allows freewill, then those that want to be saved that are not on the "list" of the saved,
Have no choice but to burn in hell.

As I already said about Calvinism's doctrine.
Man does not have freewill,
God has already decided, chosen your fate for you.
Pinseeker, you know good and well men do not choose where they will go in the next life!

Pinseeker is misleading folks on his religion to hide it's true teachings.

Pinseeker, I'm still waiting for you to give an answer to why Adam sinned, without having a "totally depraved sin nature" as you claim is the cause for why mankind sins against God.
Adam's "nature" was created in the image of God. Now explain why Adam sinned against God?
I'm waiting?

 

[Titus]

You being a calvinist Mr. Nolette, do not believe we come to faith by hearing the gospel,

Romans 10:17
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God

Your doctrine teaches we are first regenerated, before we hear or believe in the gospel!

Regeneration is born again!
You teach we are born again before we have faith, Romans 10:17.
This is taught nowhere in Jesus' gospel.
We are only regenerated after we are taught the gospel and believe and obey it,
Romans 1:16.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

Romans 9:16-21 explains God’s will, and what our response should be. Calvinism is proven Biblical by reading Romans 9.

aint it a great day to be a calvinist!!

 

[Titus]

Romans 9:16-21 explains God’s will, and what our response should be. Calvinism is proven Biblical by reading Romans 9.

aint it a great day to be a calvinist!!

You think Romans 9 proves calvinism because you only read Romans 9 when you put on your TUILP colored glasses!

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

You think Romans 9 proves calvinism because you only read Romans 9 when you put on your TUILP colored glasses!

yes, they go great with my special TULIP haircut. :cool::cool::cool:

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

Heres an amazing man, presbyterian, and calvinist, explaining our free will. Enjoy!

 

[Grailhunter]

Theology does form your standard of morality.

Your choice of theology can affect your standard of morality, I say can. Most people are not theologians, not by a long shot. And how they pick the church they go to varies. The church that their family goes to....the one closest to their home....the one that was preached to them at their front door.

In church, the belief of the preacher is not always the beliefs of the people sitting in the pews. Belief control has always been a pipe dream in Christianity. And ultimately how people apply what they believe is what matters.

Some Calvinists in the past claim they had to live a holy life (puritans) to prove they were one of God’s elect or chosen.

Historically you are correct on this....the Puritans....the Calvinists were known to be hard working because how well they did in life was seen as proof to them of being blessed of God....the Elect. They were also known for being moral for the same reason. But Calvinism tries to mix the religion of the Old Covenant with the New Covenant, which usually produces a conundrum of beliefs.

In relation to their condemnation of Witches, they were following the examples in the Old Testament and the scripture that says, Do not suffer a witch to live. Exodus 22:18. Which is more correctly translated...“You shall not allow a sorceress to live, because the word witch does not appear in the scriptures. The word is German and first occurs in the 16th century and has its on meaning and visual effects. But the scripture does point to females, which has its own curiosities.

And as a matter of historical reference the Salem witch trials are the G version of the witch-hunts and inquisitions carried out by the Catholics.

Christians should not kill witches.

If we are to follow John Calvin, and or the Puritan brand of Calvinism: One would not be living a moral life according to the terms of the New Covenant because one would kill their enemies physically. Granted, in the Old Covenant, God told believers to destroy their enemies, but we are not under the Old Covenant.

"Should not kill their enemies." Is that religious enemies, or invading armies of Russia? This gets into the interpreted teachings of Christ.

 

[Titus]

Heres an amazing man, presbyterian, and calvinist, explaining our free will. Enjoy!

I watched RC Sproul, try to explain His calvinistic doctrine of freewill.
He does as all calvinist's do, double speak. Pinseeker is RC Sprouls pupil.

He claims no outside source is affecting our freewill.
RC claims this while teaching our depraved nature comes from other mens sins! THAT IS AN OUTSIDE SOURCE!

RC Sproul is a typical calvinist. John Calvin contradicted himself just as Calvin's followers do.
If I am being depraved because of others sins before me. That is not my freewill choice to commit sin!
This calvinism is illogical hog wash!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I don't believe Calvinism is in line with God's goodness or character and or fair justice. It would be like a coast guard saving everyone on a lifeboat except for you and your family and when you ask him why he is not saving you and your family, he says.... “No reason, I just do not want to save you.” “You should be thankful that I am saving these other people.”

Or it would be like a dog owner who kicks his dog across the room like a football because it has an uncontrollable pooping problem (because it is sick) whereby the dog squeezes out hot piles of steamy goodness on his master's white carpets. So instead of the master taking his dog to the vet and trying to help him, he just decides to kick the poor animal and to punish it (When the animal has no control over it's pooping function).

That's kind of how I see Calvinism. For it is called UNconditional Election. Meaning, God is not electing anyone based upon any conditions found within the individual. So God is simply creating many for the express purpose to be tortured for all eternity. That is their destiny that they cannot escape and God has chosen this only path for them. God wants many lives to suffer for all eternity and we should just be thankful that He saves a few when He has the power to save them all (But He simply doesn't). This does not sound like the loving God of the Bible.

YOu miss the import of what Gods Word says for sentimental emotions.

God did not create man for destruction. He gave Adam the choice and that choice was then carried on in the natural laws God created for reproduction. Like begets like. Yes there is nothing in teh elect that makes them worthy of being chosen by god. the simply are! God did not bother to inform of us His decisions and then we try and fail in our feeble intellects to try to figure out why, when God said it is "nonya".

Your answer is the perfect modern way of saying this verse and the bibles response:

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,


We as sinners must remember this fact: God is not obligated to save anyone!