John 6:66 - Why did many disciples stop following Jesus?

[Tong2020]

SAINTS AND INTERCESSORY PRAYER - Scripture Catholic

Just to show that the article is flawed, here's a couple of comments:

The article says and I quote:

"To the contrary, God encourages communication within the communion of saints. Moses and Elijah’s appearance on earth also teach us that the saints in heaven have capabilities that far surpass our limitations on earth."

Out of context conclusion. The reference passages (Matt. 17:1-3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30-31) does not in any way, shape or form teaches that.

The article says and I quote:

"Matt. 27:47,49; Mark 15:35-36 – the people believe that Jesus calls on Elijah for his intercession, and waits to see if Elijah would come to save Jesus on the cross."

Misuse of scriptures. It seems to me that the article writer believe what those unbelievers who stood by thinks about what Jesus said in and believes like so. Well, clearly the article writer believes that Jesus, in v.46, was calling to Elijah for his intercession, and that Elijah could save Jesus on the cross. Well, needless to say, that was a strange understanding. Jesus asking Elijah to save him?

So, there is really no need to go through the rest of the article. Besides, the final word is the scriptures.

Tong
R1272

 

[Truth1945]

Tong2020 said:
I guess it's obvious they know that as well. For if they pray to Mary and those men who have died (saints) to who they call and pray to, more so then they can pray to Jesus. It puzzles me why, when they know they have access to the Father through Jesus Christ, that they choose to do that instead of directly honoring the Son.

Have you read in scriptures of any teaching that the living can call and pray to the dead? When say the apostle Paul or Peter died, was there any incident recorded in scriptures that speaks of the remaining apostles or even of the brethren calling and praying to Paul or Peter asking him/them to take their prayers to Jesus, to in turn take their prayers to the Father?

Even if that were the case, which issue I will not here talk about, it does not refute the argument that there is no scriptures that speaks of such teaching that the living can call to departed souls such as Moses or Elijah, nor was there any incident recorded in scriptures that speaks of an apostle who called and prayed to Peter or Paul asking him/them to take his prayers to Jesus and then Jesus to the Father.

Sorry, but I would always rely in God's words in scriptures. That is why, when you teach something, I always request for reference scriptures.

Tong
R1270

Not sure what Bible you're reading:

Rev 8 3 Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. A large quantity of incense was given to him to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar that stood in front of the throne;

4 and so from the angel's hand the smoke of the incense went up in the presence of God and with it the prayers of the saints.

angel took the censer and filled it from the fire of the altar, which he then hurled down onto the earth; immediately there came peals of thunder and flashes of lightning, and the earth shook.

1) Praying to Saints (i.e., Asking Them to Intercede): Rich Man and Lazarus

2) Praying to Saints: Saul Petitions the Prophet Samuel After the Latter’s Death

3) The Apostle Paul Prayed for the Dead

2 Timothy 1:16-18 May the Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me; he was not ashamed of my chains, [17] but when he arrived in Rome he searched for me eagerly and found me – [18] may the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that Day – and you well know all the service he rendered at Ephesus. (cf. 4:19)

4) Jesus and Peter Simultaneously Prayed to Saints and for the Dead

Tabitha was a disciple in Joppa who died. Peter prayed to her when he said “Tabitha, rise.” See Acts 9:36-41. She was dead, and he was addressing her. There is no impenetrable wall between heaven and earth. This is not only praying to the dead, but for the dead, since the passage says that Peter “prayed” before addressing Tabitha first person. And he was praying for her to come back to life.

Our Lord Jesus does the same thing with regard to Lazarus. He prays for Lazarus (a dead man: John 11:41-42) and then speaks directly to a dead man (in effect, “praying” to him): “Lazarus, come out” (John 11:43).

4 Biblical Proofs for Prayers to Saints and for the Dead

 

[Philip James]

, I assume that someone like Nancy Pelosi, who has fought to keep abortion legal, would be welcome to the feast because she is a Catholic. At least, she says that she is a practicing Catholic

Every confirmed Catholic knows (or should know!) that they are responsible to ensure they are properly disposed to receive the Eucharist ( i.e. they cannot be in a state of mortal sin)

Facilitating or aiding in the procurement of an abortion is a grave sin and anyone who has done so and presents themselves for communion without being first Reconciled, is committing sacrilage and heaping burning coals upon their own head..

Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord

the truth is that I, as a baptized believer in Jesus Christ, would NOT be welcome to the feast at a Catholic Church because I am not a Catholic (i.e. have not been through the Catholic confirmation process).

I'm sorry, I don't understand your objection.
If one holds the catholic faith, and believes that Jesus is truly bodily present in the Eucharist, and is willing to affirm such and be united with Him and the Church Catholic, by saying Amen to the reception of the Eucharist,
Why would they balk at making the necessary preparations so that they would have a right to come to the table? This seems irrational to me.

To believe that one is approaching to receive our Most Holy Creator, but not willing to make the neccessary preparation to stand in His presence and serve Him?

Do such preparations seem onerous?

Compare wih the priests of the old covenant, and how meticulous were their preparations for service in the Temple,

Yet 'there is something greater than the temple here'

Peace be with you!

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Every confirmed Catholic knows (or should know!) that they are responsible to ensure they are properly disposed to receive the Eucharist ( i.e. they cannot be in a state of mortal sin)

Don't you see the problem here?? You say that there are safeguards to ensure that only "believers" partake, and the main safeguard is that the person is a member of the Catholic Church. Then you say that it's the individual's responsibility "to ensure that they are properly disposed...."

The truth is that the church cannot possibly KNOW FOR SURE who is and isn't "properly disposed" to take communion. And church membership doesn't ensure this--in any kind of church.

Few people in America have done more than Nancy Pelosi to keep abortion legal! And yet, she is welcome at the table, but as a mature Christian with over 40 years of walking with the Lord, I would not be welcome! This is NOT RIGHT!

If one holds the catholic faith, and believes that Jesus

There is no AND about it. It's not "believe in Jesus Christ AND hold the Catholic faith (i.e. be a member of the Catholic Church)...." I am a believer in Jesus Christ. I was born again by the Spirit in September of 1977. But I would not be welcome at the feast that you attend.
.

 

[Truth1945]

The words of God were given over time since the beginning of the world, to manKind. Scripture is given by inspiration of God way way back before the 4th century, and God preserved them through the years. It was there all along.

so bibles came falling from heaven into books stores, and apps. etc... you need FACTS my friend. Not stories made up in your mind

 

[Truth1945]

Every church, as were those mentioned in scriptures (such as the church in Jerusalem, the church in Rome, the church in Ephesus, the church in Colosse, the church in Thessalonica, the church in Antioch, the church in Galatia, the church in Corinth, the churches throughout all Judea, Galilee, and Samaria), are the churches of God, the churches of Christ, members all of the church, that Christ is building.

and who owns those Churches?

 

[Truth1945]

After the ascension of Christ, do you not read in scriptures who guides and teaches the truth - the Holy Spirit.

it was the Church that guided and teached the truth. Not some person with his own interpretations

 

[Ferris Bueller]

@Truthcampaign.org , @Philip James

Hebrews 13:9
9Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings, for it is good for the heart to be strengthened by grace and not by foods of no value to those devoted to them.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

it was the Church that guided and teached the truth. Not some person with his own interpretations

But it is the Holy Spirit that gives discernment of truth. The true church of God does not need a teacher to tell them that what they are taught is truth or not. The Holy Spirit does that now in this New Covenant.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

But it is the Holy Spirit that gives discernment of truth. The true church of God does not need a teacher to tell them what they are taught is truth or not. The Holy Spirit does that now in this New Covenant.

Right!

1 John 2:25-29
This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life.
These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you. As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.
Now, little children, abide in Him, so that when He appears, we may have confidence and not shrink away from Him in shame at His coming. If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Right!

1 John 2:25-29
This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life.
These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you. As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.
Now, little children, abide in Him, so that when He appears, we may have confidence and not shrink away from Him in shame at His coming. If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him.

Bingo!

 

[Ferris Bueller]

@Truthcampaign.org , @Philip James

Romans 14 makes it clear that I need to be careful to honor and respect your choice to worship the way you do and so I'm doing that. But I will post the reasons why I do not worship that way, and will never worship that way. The Bible is very clear to me that God does not relate to us through foods and religious procedures. And my experience has bore this truth out. And now that I know this I can never, ever go back to a mainline church ever again. I tried to be good and not be a trouble maker and stop railing against the traditional churches and went back to one because I couldn't find a church but it was a disaster. It's a cold, dead place for me. It's a waste of time. But if you're getting something out of it, then so be it. But my hope is God will bring you out of the world of religious articles and foods and procedures and into a greater spiritual experience with him.

 

[Truth1945]

But it is the Holy Spirit that gives discernment of truth. The true church of God does not need a teacher to tell them that what they are taught is truth or not. The Holy Spirit does that now in this New Covenant.

Then why did Jesus start a Church, guided by the Holy Spirit? Did he do bad? Gave you wrong direction?

1 Tim 3:15 But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.

 

[Truth1945]

@Truthcampaign.org , @Philip James

Romans 14 makes it clear that I need to be careful to honor and respect your choice to worship the way you do and so I'm doing that. But I will post the reasons why I do not worship that way, and will never worship that way. The Bible is very clear to me that God does not relate to us through foods and religious procedures. And my experience has bore this truth out. And now that I know this I can never, ever go back to a mainline church ever again. I tried to be good and not be a trouble maker and stop railing against the traditional churches and went back to one because I couldn't find a church but it was a disaster. It's a cold, dead place for me. It's a waste of time. But if you're getting something out of it, then so be it. But my hope is God will bring you out of the world of religious articles and foods and procedures and into a greater spiritual experience with him.

We all have our journeys and experiences. God will judge accordingly. God loves you no matter what! The devil on the other hand does not love you or anybody! To bring us out of worshiping of God is not love nor good. Jesus gave us procedures to follow.

Keep searching my friend! Much love!

 

[Truth1945]

@Truthcampaign.org , @Philip James

Hebrews 13:9
9Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings, for it is good for the heart to be strengthened by grace and not by foods of no value to those devoted to them.

please go into detail about this scripture and not pull verses out to mislead people

 

[Truth1945]

please go into detail about this scripture and not pull verses out to mislead people

what's the context?

 

[Truth1945]

But it is the Holy Spirit that gives discernment of truth. The true church of God does not need a teacher to tell them that what they are taught is truth or not. The Holy Spirit does that now in this New Covenant.

Then why did Jesus start a Church?

1 John 2:25-29
This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life.
These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you. As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you

so you are the anointed? Tell me how? By your own willful interpretations?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Then why did Jesus start a Church, guided by the Holy Spirit? Did he do bad? Gave you wrong direction?

1 Tim 3:15 But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.

I tried to phrase it so you'd see I wasn't saying we don't need teachers. What we don't need is someone to tell us what we're being taught is the truth or not. The Holy Spirit tells us what teaching is truth and what teaching is not. That's what 1 John 2:26-27 is 'teaching' us. I don't need a Pope, or a pastor, or a reverend to tell me what teachings out there are truth and which ones are not. I need teachers to teach me things, but it is the Holy Spirit that tells me if what I'm hearing is truth or not.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

To bring us out of worshiping of God is not love nor good. Jesus gave us procedures to follow.

Keep searching my friend! Much love!

......And here is that 'procedure' that Jesus tells us to follow..."righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit".

Romans 14:16-18
16Do not allow what you consider good, then, to be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18For whoever serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.

The Catholic church has made the kingdom a matter of the proper and authorized eating and drinking of it's religious ceremonies and procedures. And you speak evil of us not making the kingdom a matter of the eating and drinking of it's religious ceremonies. Paul tells us what is the pleasing and approved way to serve Christ (it isn't the eating and drinking of 'religion'). I pray you will hear the Holy Spirit's conviction that Paul is teaching the truth, not your religious leaders/church.

 

[Tong2020]

Not sure what Bible you're reading:

Rev 8 3 Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. A large quantity of incense was given to him to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar that stood in front of the throne;

4 and so from the angel's hand the smoke of the incense went up in the presence of God and with it the prayers of the saints.

angel took the censer and filled it from the fire of the altar, which he then hurled down onto the earth; immediately there came peals of thunder and flashes of lightning, and the earth shook.

1) Praying to Saints (i.e., Asking Them to Intercede): Rich Man and Lazarus

2) Praying to Saints: Saul Petitions the Prophet Samuel After the Latter’s Death

3) The Apostle Paul Prayed for the Dead

2 Timothy 1:16-18 May the Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, for he often refreshed me; he was not ashamed of my chains, [17] but when he arrived in Rome he searched for me eagerly and found me – [18] may the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that Day – and you well know all the service he rendered at Ephesus. (cf. 4:19)

4) Jesus and Peter Simultaneously Prayed to Saints and for the Dead

Tabitha was a disciple in Joppa who died. Peter prayed to her when he said “Tabitha, rise.” See Acts 9:36-41. She was dead, and he was addressing her. There is no impenetrable wall between heaven and earth. This is not only praying to the dead, but for the dead, since the passage says that Peter “prayed” before addressing Tabitha first person. And he was praying for her to come back to life.

Our Lord Jesus does the same thing with regard to Lazarus. He prays for Lazarus (a dead man: John 11:41-42) and then speaks directly to a dead man (in effect, “praying” to him): “Lazarus, come out” (John 11:43).

4 Biblical Proofs for Prayers to Saints and for the Dead

The article is flawed.

1. Praying to Saints (i.e., Asking Them to Intercede): Rich Man and Lazarus.
Rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16:19-31 is not about praying to saints. An unmistakable misuse of scriptures. For one, God was nowhere even mentioned in the dialogue between the rich man and Abraham. In the story, the rich was just asking Abraham to do something for him: first, to send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool his tongue , for he is tormented in flame; second, to send Lazarus to his father’s house, to testify to his brothers, and so that they will repent and would not come to the place of torment where he is. See? There was nothing like the rich man asking Abraham to bring his prayers to God there. Besides it is between the departed souls, and not even between the living and the departed. Far off really.

2. Praying to Saints: Saul Petitions the Prophet Samuel After the Latter’s Death
How could this even make be a reference to support the false doctrine of praying to the departed souls? For there is deception there (1 Sam.28:12) and the need of a spiritist or a medium (1 Sam. 28:7). Did you not read in scriptures concerning spiritists and mediums, that God despise those who call one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead, for all such are an abomination to the Lord? Besides, to call to the dead there requires a medium. You were saying you call to them departed for intercession. Why? Do you by that say you are a medium? Well,...I surely hope not.

3. The Apostle Paul Prayed for the Dead
There is no objection that we can pray for people, the living (not the departed), with reference to 2 Timothy 1:16-18. So, obviously a clear misuse of said scriptures.

4. Jesus and Peter Simultaneously Prayed to Saints and for the Dead
Peter did not pray to Tabitha, rather he prayed to God (who else?). And after, Peter, in faith that God had heard his prayer, commanded Tabitha to arise. The same goes in the case of Jesus commanding Lazarus to come forth from out his grave. Again, an obvious misuse of scriptures.

Tong
R1274