Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Some will continue to deliberately confound the LORD God with our lord, who is the Son of God, thereby violating the 1C. So be it.
John 1:1 - Jesus is the Father or he's not the one true God?
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Again, I'll point this out:
The prophet Isaiah, in Isaiah 40, prophesies of John the Baptist in verse three of that chapter:
And in the apostle John's gospel, we see that John the Baptist is the fulfillment of this prophecy. Of John the Baptist, the apostle says:
And then the apostle John relates the testimony of John the Baptist:
So, as I said, some will continue to deny Christ and Who He is. And you and like-minded folks here are cases in point. So be it.
Grace and peace to you.
The prophet Isaiah, in Isaiah 40, prophesies of John the Baptist in verse three of that chapter:
"A voice cries: 'In the wilderness prepare the way of the LORD (Jehovah, NWT); make straight in the desert a highway for our God." (Isaiah 40:3)
And in the apostle John's gospel, we see that John the Baptist is the fulfillment of this prophecy. Of John the Baptist, the apostle says:
"There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. He came as a witness, to bear witness about the Light, that all might believe through him. He was not the Light, but came to bear witness about the Light" (John 1:6-8).
And then the apostle John relates the testimony of John the Baptist:
"...when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, 'Who are you?' He confessed, and did not deny, but confessed, 'I am not the Christ.' And they asked him, 'What then? Are you Elijah?' He said, 'I am not.' 'Are you the Prophet?' And he answered, 'No.' So they said to him, 'Who are you? We need to give an answer to those who sent us. What do you say about yourself?' He said, 'I am the voice of one crying out in the wilderness, "Make straight the way of the Lord," as the prophet Isaiah said.' (Now they had been sent from the Pharisees.) They asked him, 'Then why are you baptizing, if you are neither the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?' John answered them, 'I baptize with water, but among you stands One you do not know, even He Who comes after me, the strap of Whose sandal I am not worthy to untie.'" (John 1:19-27)
No trinitarian does this. Read the above again. And again. And again, if necessary. It is what it is.
...and the Son of Man, so He is fully God and fully man...
No trinitarian does this. Whether anyone believe it or not. understanding the Father and the Son to be, along with the Holy Spirit, the One True God does not constitute having any gods before God by any stretch of the imagination.
So, as I said, some will continue to deny Christ and Who He is. And you and like-minded folks here are cases in point. So be it.
Grace and peace to you.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Again, reading ‘Jesus is God’ that is not there, denial of agency. The path to God is Jesus, whose path was made by John.
Yes it is. Thomas and Peter said so. Stop reading the WatchTower attacks on our Bible.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
I 've never read the WatchTower. Sad that all you got is this Ad Homenim.
Thomas and Peter never said Jesus is God. Thomas expressed an exclamation. As far as Peter goes, he repeatedly and explictly state that only the Father is God.
All praise to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Peter 1:3
16 For we were not making up clever stories when we told you about the powerful coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. We saw his majestic splendor with our own eyes when he received honor and glory from God the Father.
2 Peter 1:16-17
Yes, and in various ways, every other writer of any part of the Bible. And Jesus said it of Himself many times and in different ways, too. But it's crystal clear in what John the Baptist says of himself, referring directly back to Isaiah 40. John the Baptist was the forerunner for Christ, the Son of God and the Son of Man, and therefore God made man.
Remember 2 John 2:22-23...
Grace and peace to you, Jack. And all, of course.
Yes they did!
Thomas said to Jesus "My Lord and my God".
Peter said to Jesus "Lord you know ALL THINGS"
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Right. He called him lord. There are many lords in the Bible. Peter did not say that Jesus is God.
Totally evasive. Do you need to consult with Kingdom Hall? ONLY God knows all things. Are you calling Peter a liar?
Peter said to Jesus "Lord you know ALL THINGS"
Don't you know that Jesus taught Peter? Don't you know that Thomas knew Jesus personally?
The WatchTower does not overrule Peter and Thomas who knew Jesus.
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Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Don't you know an exclamation is not a statement of fact? When my toast falls butter side down, I am not literally claiming the toast is actually feces.
Proof that the statement was an exclamation, there is not verse in Scripture that simply states 'Jesus is God' like there are many that say Jesus is the son of god.
Joh 20:28 "And Thomas answered and said unto Him, My LORD and my God."
The Implication here recognized is "[You Are] my LORD And my God!"
Overwhelmingly Substantiated And Confirmed By Over 500 Scriptures!:
160 Scriptural Reasons The LORD Jesus Christ IS Almighty God!!
Amen?
GRACE, Peace, And JOY...
tigger 2
Well-Known Member
John 20:28 is a statement by Thomas who had refused to believe that Jesus had been resurrected. His statement is a phrase without subject or verb and if subject and verb are to be supplied by the translator, it could read “you are My Lord and My God.” It is more likely, however, that it would be translated more like “My Lord and my God be praised.” This would mean that the phrase was meant as a doxology to the Father. Doxologies and other commonly used phrases frequently have words missing in the Greek text.
Many trinitarians say, instead, that this phrase by Thomas was an ADDRESS to Jesus. If true, this would mean that Thomas was naming Jesus by these words. However, it is rare that a person is addressed and not spoken to further. For example, “Then they said to him, ‘Lord, always give us this bread.’” (John 6:34).
However, there is actual proof that John did not intend this as an ADDRESS to Jesus.
You see, whenever John, and the other NT writers, used “Lord” as a noun of address, they used the form of the word known as a vocative. This means that if John understood Thomas’ words as an address to Jesus, he would write the word kurie. There are 33 uses of kurie in the Gospel of John alone. Here are a few of them: John 9:38; 11:3, 12, 21, 27, 32, 34, 39; 13:6, 9, 25, 36, 37; 14:5. (Compare these with an actual identification of the lord: “it is the lord [kurios],” John 21:7). Whereas when the NT writers intended it as a subject (“The Lord then answered him..." - Luke 13:15) they used the nominative form of the word (Kurios). Kurios is the form used at John 20:28.
So, the probability is that this incomplete phrase is a doxology to the Father.
Furthermore, if John had, somehow, understood Thomas’ statement as some trinitarians insist, he certainly would have provided some follow-up clarification and emphasis in his own comments.
Surely John would have shown Thomas prostrating himself before “God” and worshiping him (but he doesn’t!). So how does John summarize this incident?
“But these were written that you may believe [Believe what? That Jesus is God? Here, then, is where it should have been written if John really believed such a thing:] that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.” - John 20:31, RSV. (Be sure to compare 1 John 5:5.)
Or, as the trinitarian The NIV Study Bible, Zondervan, 1985, states in a footnote for this scripture:
“This whole Gospel is written to show the truth of Jesus’ Messiahship and to present him as the Son of God, so that the readers may believe in him.”
Obviously, neither Jesus’ response, nor Thomas’ responses (before and after his statement at John 20:28), nor John’s summation of the event at 20:31 recognizes Thomas’ statement to mean that Jesus is the only true God!
See my study of this scripture here:
Examining the Trinity: MYGOD
tigger 2
Well-Known Member
All uses of "Lord" as used in address (vocative) in the Gospel of John (and others):
Examining the Trinity: KURIE (part 2)
Did you find any uses of "Lord" used as nouns of address that were not followed by statements or questions to the individual being made?
John 20:28 is not an address to Jesus.
Examining the Trinity: KURIE (part 2)
Did you find any uses of "Lord" used as nouns of address that were not followed by statements or questions to the individual being made?
John 20:28 is not an address to Jesus.
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I truly doubt that you are qualified to determine nearly all of our English Bibles wrong.
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Even a little child can understand the perfectly clear meaning. It takes messengers of Satan to try to change the meaning of what God said.
Great bookends:
- John 1 ~ “I am the voice of one crying out in the wilderness, ‘Make straight the way of the Lord,’ as the prophet Isaiah said”... John the Baptist saying he was the fulfillment of Isaiah's prophecy in Isaiah 40:3 ~ "A Voice cries: 'In the wilderness prepare the way of the LORD; make straight in the desert a highway for our God."
- John 20 ~ "Thomas answered him, 'My Lord and my God!' Jesus said to him, 'Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.'”
Grace and peace to you, GraceAmbassador.
DanielConway
New Member
1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways,
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.
3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.
4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.
The Son Superior to Angels
5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” ? Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son” ?
6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him.”
7 In speaking of the angels he says, “He makes his angels spirits, and his servants flames of fire.”
8 But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
These words were written by an expert in the old testament, the sort of thing you anti-trinitarians fancy yourselves to be (in your wildest dreams of intellectual sufficiency) to the Hebrew community, just about all of whom could quote the kagrram to you from beginning to end. If you can take the tar pitch off your retinas and read it unfiltered by your "cults" factory rebuild blindfilters you might have some hope of actually attaining unto a saving faith. I certainly will pray that you will. All of us will.
2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.
3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.
4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.
The Son Superior to Angels
5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father” ? Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son” ?
6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him.”
7 In speaking of the angels he says, “He makes his angels spirits, and his servants flames of fire.”
8 But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever; a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
These words were written by an expert in the old testament, the sort of thing you anti-trinitarians fancy yourselves to be (in your wildest dreams of intellectual sufficiency) to the Hebrew community, just about all of whom could quote the kagrram to you from beginning to end. If you can take the tar pitch off your retinas and read it unfiltered by your "cults" factory rebuild blindfilters you might have some hope of actually attaining unto a saving faith. I certainly will pray that you will. All of us will.
Why do people make something simple and make it so complicate?
Who was Jesus talking with in John 20:27-28?
27) Then saith he to Thomas, "Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing."
28) And Thomas answered and said unto him, "My Lord and my God."
Who was Thomas addressing but Jesus? I know the answer! The Unitarians didn't want Jesus to be God also along with the Father, yet Jesus said to them, "If you will not believe I AM (he), you will die in your sins,"
The Scripture is very plain and so true! So why do Unitarians believe NOT the Bible??? Because natural man CANNOT receive the Spiritual things of God for they are foolishness unto him, and neither can he know them for they are spiritually discerned.
To God Be The Glory
Who was Jesus talking with in John 20:27-28?
27) Then saith he to Thomas, "Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing."
28) And Thomas answered and said unto him, "My Lord and my God."
Who was Thomas addressing but Jesus? I know the answer! The Unitarians didn't want Jesus to be God also along with the Father, yet Jesus said to them, "If you will not believe I AM (he), you will die in your sins,"
The Scripture is very plain and so true! So why do Unitarians believe NOT the Bible??? Because natural man CANNOT receive the Spiritual things of God for they are foolishness unto him, and neither can he know them for they are spiritually discerned.
To God Be The Glory
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DanielConway
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